Thoughts

T

TdA

Guest
First post. so sorry if i dont follow protocol :(

Ok I dont't care how much flame this thread generates, and in any case 50% of what is flamed could prove useful to someone reading this.

Here are a few observations about RvR in Hibernia (excalibur).

It's a shambles.
We complain about zergs and ganking but what happens when we go to RvR as a Realm? We zerg. We gank. It is a limitation of the game as much as it is our fault. But.

Bottom line is that whoever is in charge of keep defence and capture at the moment is ......... missing?
Who is in charge of these things?
I'm in a guild which is in turn in a large alliance and I have no idea.

Hopefully that sums up the problem exactly.
No one has managed to shine as raid leaders.
The broader realm issues are being left to sort themselves out.
In the interests of keeping the game going I think someone should take the reins. ( And no, this is not me volunteering )

I do have a lot of observations though and want to share a few with you realm as a whole.

To begin.
We, as a realm, have not learnt from the 'lessons' that are being given to us everyday by the lone ( more intelligent ) other-realmers.
I see death messages all the time of people dying very close to Ligen.
Why? Because there is a natural bottleneck in the game and all players who need to go to the frontier have to go through a section of terrain which suits ambushers very nicely. These are the most efficient RP farms anywhere.
Imagine if there was a relic raid occuring and these ppl stopped every solo player trying to get to the relic keep to defend it. Imagine if they did this 30 minutes before a raid actually left the portal keep. How many players could you remove from the frontier with this tactic? How many middle level players would even return after being killed so close to the gate? Get enough nightshades/rangers in place and you could close the access to the whole frontier from that gate. A correctly organised group of eight could easily manage to hold back a very large contingent of enemies for half an hour surely? How far into a relic keep would you be able to get if you had no distractions from enemies?

Keep taking groups can be small. As little as eight players can take a keep with the correct mix of classes. Alliances are concerned about spies listening to /as. Why not get a group of eight players who both want to do the job and are capable and mesh them together as a team to do the majority of keep takes?
This way the team can concentrate on keep capture and leave keep defence for others ( One good tactic would be to have the team take the first other realm outpost, announce it to their allies and ask for some allied guild to get there in preparation. Then with the bonuses that they have now move to the next keep and start the conquest of that one. As soon as the new keep is ready to be taken, have the allied guild take control of the newly released keep and the capture team takes control of the new one. This would continue down each of the outposts using all of the alliance members to get a substantial bonus for the alliance as a whole. )

On that note have a siege engine team possibly. A group of people who's job is to bash doors down and rebuild them. While a keep capture team needs to clear guards from the new keep the old keep can be repaired by the engine team.

For speed in keep captures dont follow the method everyone seems to use. Using more ae mez/stuns and ae damage spells you could theoretically clear the doorway much more speedily and not give other realm alliances the chance to get to the keep to defend it.

Guilds : Historically guild were used to keep similarly classed people together ( ie merchants ). We could take this on bouard and have a slew of guilds dedicated to one role. A guild of crafters would enable any player to get hold of a crafter and purchase the items they required. The guild could sponsor their own craftsmen by charging a levy on the crafted sales. They could also match crafters to item requests more accurately either for the good of the realm or the good of the crafters.
As noted before a siege engine guild would be of great benefit to the realm. A guild For keep capture. One for BGs. One for Leveling and/or power-leveling. The list goes on. Note these dont have to be new guilds but existing guilds could assume the responsibility.

Battlegrounds : This is where the new players learn how to act cohesively in groups and how their style and class is best played in RvR ( in fact old players can learn stuff here too mostly about other peoples perceptions and how other classes can complement their own ). Each player needs to identify what is best for them, not what every one else says is how to play xyz character class. BGs allow experimentation without the normal 'oh good, i ran 20 minutes to emain at level 30 and i've just been one shot killed by a hunter/shadowblade'. That happens a lot more often than you might think. And believe me it doesn't make you want to go straight back again.
BGs are condensed. You can explore the whole map in 20 minutes. You can always win a fight there. You have considerably more chance to actually fight RvR in BGs than in Frontier.
What I'm saying here is use the BGs. They were given by Mythic to play with and given the success of PvP servers and Darkness Falls (Where combat is more likely), this is preparation for those days.

Follow these ideas and expand on them please. I would like to know if other people feel as I do or If I am the only one.
 
C

censi

Guest
Everything you say makes perfect sense of course.........

Now try and implement that online when you are actually playing and you will find its very difficult.

To be honest, HIB are pretty well organised. When we do plan to do something as a realm, we are pretty good and can muster up some good numbers.....

The point about taking a keep with 8 people is not really a good point.... You can get away with it in the early hours of the morning but not really during prime time.... Would only take one or 2 enemy invaders to thawt your plans....

I think you are just missing out on the preparation that is being done now.

Certainly anything orangised by Celtic Fist, Clan Bearhawk or Terra Dominus is well planned, and usually well executed....

What guild are you in and who are you?
 
N

Novamir

Guest
Well I started reading, but stopped when i realised that you have probably been to rvr 2 or 3 times, as part of a zerg.

get some levels and some experience and then come and moan on forums okthxbye
 
A

Aeiedil

Guest
imo bg's suck. they let players play in a realistic rvr atomsphere, ie few hibs, and alb\mid zergs, mainly albs, unless theres a raid on.

i agree however it gives higher level players a chance to get a glimpse of what a charachter is like, however a charachter at bg level is NOT the same as a charachter at rvr level. in the 25-15 levels to level 50 after leaving the bg's the classes get more and more specialised, ie mages cannot tank in emain, however in bg's i have succesfully tanked a blue meleer on my chanter (was close however).

as for organisation, all well and good but hard to do. at raids where ive been in there usually are a lot of stealthers holding up enemys and doing the scouting when they are not at the relic fort. until you have tried to sort a relic raid though its probably best not to comment on actually doing one, its a very hard job, though its one that Novamir does so well :)
 
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old.Tzeentch

Guest
i read most of that
and uh

way 2 spot the obvious


oh and

although he is as much an elf as me in spirit

nova has shined as a raid leader thingmabob

for those of you who like clear, hard facts, he's done the only successful relic raids <planned, executed>, and does somewhat regular excursions into CF, EZ, and now, probably DF.

Mati was similar with hunts, but he left :/

nova for president, if he takes me off ignore list

btw

i think virtually everyone in hib loves to zerg
they do it in DF all the time

when will you realise, those mobs con purple for a reason, that they bring their mates for a reason...that casters have finite mana, that you can't keep running on?

I'm fed up of these dumbass hunts...
well known people organise these, but it's like they've forgotten all the stuff they learnt in PvE all the while..

Can't wait till people figure out Df is a dungeon like any other, and you can't just run in and gankgankgankgank


btw

if any retard DOES run off in a bloodlust chasing a few albs, and you are with the main group, DO NOT pursue...
stay still, and enough people don't rush off, then the more that will be inclined to stay or come back..

it takes practice, but everyone has to do it, even by yelling at people in chat, tells, group etc, they STILL manage to ignore what you say

have to set examples yourself
 
C

cjkace

Guest
We do everything that you mention above and we do it damned well in my opinion. If you had been on the last relic raid to Mid you would have seen that.

I'll address some specific points tho

1 - 8 people can take a keep - Agreed based on certain factors

a - the lvl of the players
b - the mix of the players
c - the lvl of the doors
d - luck with guard pops/defenders etc.

You make it sound like a walk in the park which it most certainly isn't. 1 enemy mezzer at the Lord can royally screw things up.

2 - Ligen - The death messages u see every day are quite often from people hunting those very invaders, sometimes solo, sometimes in groups. It isn't always possible to get groups to clear out invaders, but many of us try.

3 - Guilds - A guild of crafters! Are you serious? Do you know how long it takes these people to go over 900 in a craft? They would be expected to be slaving at the forge all day I take it? I have a great deal of patience but screw that for a game of soldiers. I can just picture it - 'Hey Blobby, thought u were in that craft guild, WTF u doing in RvR, get back to the forge there are people who need Ferrite Falcatas'

4 - THE ZERG - Mythic created a monster here. Tactics play very little part in fights in the bowl in Emain. Generally its he who mezzes the most wins OR he who outnumber the others on a 2 to 1 basis wins.

I would suggest that before you insult the majority of 'your' realm you actually take a little more time to play the game in its entirety. When you have led x number of successful keep/relic raids, crafted your way to 1100 skill, gained RR4 and successfully wiped double your numbers in the bowl, then I think you qualify to tell the rest of us how to play.
 
T

TdA

Guest
ooops

Sorry guys
this was never meant as either a moan or critisism.
I love Hib.
Maybe by trying to address so much I've obscured the details.

But as I said before flames dont bother me.
Forums are for discussions.

So, as far as you are concerned, you do all the right things and no one else is entittled to an opinion Nova? Hmmm

I dont believe I said that CF CBH or TD were doing a bad job, just that from someone who's obviously outside of this ( ie other guilds ), you get 2 hours anouncement or less of the raid taking place. Doesn't give much time to be any help to the main guild other than as the zerg.
And yeah, you are right, I've been to 5/6 RvR events so I dont have the RR4 you would require to take me seriously.

I still think discussion would help so please reply.
 
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old.Tzeentch

Guest
the only problem is

stupid ppl

the game can work fine

but stupid ppl break it.

so.
thats all there really is
i mean sure, it would be elite getting 80 ppl together making fully dedicated tank grps, dmg grps, blah blah

and i think we have ppl willing to msg everyone and take the time to do this

but end of the day

it only takes 1 <one> dumbass bastard to fuck it all up







like nova :D
 
W

Wuren

Guest
Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
nova for president, if he takes me off ignore list

lol

but i agree, to bad matinex left also :(
 
E

Ensceptifica

Guest
Originally posted by old.Tzeentch

it only takes 1 <one> dumbass bastard to fuck it all up







like nova :D

roflmao ( :

You're right about the stupid people though. It's like being in a crowd disables people's individual thinking. That's why people need to know who to listen to in any event that involves a lot of people. Ideally, a raid organiser could gather some people into a chat group, let each of them make a group, and have those group leaders relay all info on the chat channel to the group channel. As far as I know this has always worked like a charm.

But there's often people who join in, make a group, and don't speak up when a raid leader asks group leaders to speak up for /cg invite. They tag along and do silly things like running off to chase 1 invader. And 8 people acting stupid in a raid is like a forest fire; if group leaders don't control it, then it gets out of hand and the whole thing goes bad.

btw Tda thnx for the input, it doesn't hurt to discuss these things and this forum can use more constructive input (/me looks at another Karam thread)

Ensceptificamuralya Sombarlaechn
Level 49 Warden
<Clan Bearhawk>
 
S

Solarius

Guest
Nova, instead of the 'helpful' coments you've posted here, try and prove why you think these comments are wrong. You never know, you might surprise us all.

Personally I've been on less RvR (real, not BG) than TdA has, and there's a simple reason for this. The three times I have been, I (or other 'lowbies') are not told what we are doing, we'r just ordered to 'go to mid/alb, go to this keep, shut up cos your beginning to irritate me you n00b (last was actually SAID to me, I won't embarrass the player by naming him, assuming he can be!).

Once we're at the objective, the orders stop. I was on one raid were we got to Caer Ben, and everyone started pulling random guards. I said in the CG 'lets take one or two guards at a time, not all. maybe get one or two players pulling?' (and was rewarded by the 'n00b' insult) , i was ignored, and on this occasion we didn't even reach the doors. I gave up on RvR for a while after this, especially since the organiser blamed the failure on too many players under 45th lvl.

I went on another last night, to see if there'd been a change. Once again, noone really knew what was happeneing. We all died before reaching the keep even, as the other realm was already laying siege to it!

I'm sure that sucessful raids do take place, as cjkace has mentioned the last mid relic raid. Just as many fail, though, because the leadership simply isn't up to standard (Before I'm flamed on that, I mean the leadership on some unsuccessful raids, not leadership in general), or the people participating are just not told what is planned, so many get bored and would be inclined to wander off. But to simply ignore the comments made here because 'i'm rr4 and lvl 50', no sorry that doesn't work.
 
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old.Tzeentch

Guest
yep yep

people have to know who the leader of the attack is

why?

well, if ppl are all yelling different stuff, they will know who to listen to over others <of course, too many ppl yelling is never a good sign>

people know who to talk to concerning important info, eg, enemy sighted, ram carriers lost, guild needs to know who to talk to regarding numbers etc

and imo, if a leader EVER blames a failure on the players being too low etc, he's a fucking mong, cus really, you dont set out to attack with a force that is incapable of doing the mission in the first place, and then blame someone else afterward
 
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old.Charonel

Guest
i remember just after this game went retail... the "top lvl" players were all around lvl 30ish, back then it was "if your not lvl 30+ then sod off and stop lagging us, you have nothing to contribute and we dont need n00bs running around not knowing what to do and fucking up our keep raids".

when the "top lvl" players reached lvl 40+ it was "if your not lvl 40+ then sod off and stop lagging us, you have nothing to contribute and we dont need n00bs running around not knowing what to do and fucking up our keep raids"

now we have lvl 50's and all of a sudden, anyone who isnt lvl 50 OBVIOUSLY doesnt know even nearly enough to even THINK of questioning a lvl 50 about leadership decisions.

and as for realm rank... getting rank god only knows what by constantly being in emain zerging or being in one of the fast bard groups has nothing to do with being able to plan and successfully execute a relic/keep raid, they have practically zero similarities, also there's the fact that someone may just be a naturally better tactician when it comes to planning things like that... but not have spent the time getting to emain lvl's where they can get uber realm points (which i'd just LOVE people to finally realise, do NOT mean anything about a person's skill in rvr, it's far more down to how much time you spend there). should these people be ignored because they're only lvl 30ish? or (these days) only lvl 40ish? no, of course not, but it happens.

these are the main reasons why i never bothered much with emain, prefering to solo rvr in yggdra, less people. nobody deciding that they knew exactly what to do and that everyone elses oppinion doesnt matter etc...

yah, obviously you can't have ten leaders on keep raids etc... we all know how much of a bloody mess that ends up being, but just ignoring people based on level happens far too much with some people (but not everyone thank god).

P.S. many of the high lvl's DO know what they're doing though... it's partly down to experiance in rvr and partly down to popularity, partly down to simply having a "knack" for it. um... i forgot to mention partly down to being lvl 50... funny that :), can't possibly imagine why...
 
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Ensceptifica

Guest
There's one other thing that's been the downfall of most raids so far: impatience.

If it's hard to organise a keep taking, it's even harder to organise keep defense. People hate sitting still; sooner or later they start running off, and when people running off get a following, those people start shouting commands and imagine they're in charge. Presto, the army gets split into smaller groups and gets ganked piece by piece. Then the remaining defense turns out too weak and gets overrun.

People need to be more patient.

Ensceptificamuralya Sombarlaechn
Level 49 Warden
<Clan Bearhawk>
 

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