This is why they want out...

[Gumbo]

I think we're broadly in agreement. Pressure should be applied to the current Government to get it done. The difficulty would be getting such a law on to the statute books past the wooly liberals. The holding without charge thing was brought in by Labour, so it would be interesting to see if they stood against an effort to tidy it up.

 

[Embattle]

At least believing in a jury of peers means that 12 people have reached that decision.

Edit: Well at least a majority.

My point was more to the quantity of idiots that can make up a jury.

 

[yaruar]

Word on the street (well word of all his old co-workers) is that he isn't guilty of what he's been charged with (AFAIR it's aiding the funding of terrorists via web sites) because he is fucking useless with computers and wasn't capable of actually doing what they say.

On the upside, him getting nicked got me a job in his old department at Imperial, so I was quids in. The UK has no evidence to charge him and the US won't say what their evidence is and won't share it with the UK. Probably because there is no real evidence and I suspect the US doesn't want to lose face over it.

 

[soze]

The point is they had NO reason to hold him, if they did they would have taken him to trial.

I do not know about this case, but it could be a case where prisoners have been held and allowed no contact with the outside world to protect informants / spies. I am uneasy with people being locked up with no trail but i will not call my government scum without knowing what the guy has done.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Have none of you learnt how things are done by this man? He's always right ffs!

 

[Raven]

His PVC jacket says otherwise.

 

[Tom]

I do not know about this case, but it could be a case where prisoners have been held and allowed no contact with the outside world to protect informants / spies. I am uneasy with people being locked up with no trail but i will not call my government scum without knowing what the guy has done.

Apparently he hasn't done enough to warrant being charged.

I don't care if he planned to blow up a train and kill 100 people while doing so. The principle, in this country, is that one is innocent unless proven guilty. They should charge him or release him.

Heck, we had dozens of terrorists locked up for years, until we released them. The difference is, they drank Guinness and didn't have brown skin.

 

[soze]

I do not know the facts, no one does. But we do not know if he had a secret trial. If he tried to buy weapons from an undercover police office. To put him on public trial means ruining that under cover officers cover. Depending out who he works with and how deep he is in under holding a trial in secret and stopping him from communicating could be for the greater good.

Maybe my crime novel fascination is getting the better of me. But seeing as the guy has not been allowed to talk I don't think anyone knows enough either way.

 

[Ch3tan]

Wether if you agree with the point is irrelevant, the point I was making was, if they think he could be the cause of up to hundreds of deaths, they've clearly arrested him for a particular reason, and they've obviously witnessed some threatening behaviour, it's not like the authorities would just go around arresting random Muslim men walking around the streets, because they have a hunch that they could maybe, possibly, but very unlikely, be a terrorist.

Bit of a dilemma to be honest, I'm all for freedom and such, but not when that person could potentially could be a threat to society.

As Throd said (If he's being serious or not) I'm sure the guys getting a pretty good treatment in the UK, it could be worse, he could be in America.

I think you are an idiot. I hope you never get to be a teacher and teach a generation of kids that it's okay for a government to do what it wants based on suspicion alone.

 

[Gwadien]

I think you are an idiot. I hope you never get to be a teacher and teach a generation of kids that it's okay for a government to do what it wants based on suspicion alone.

I appreciate your opinion.

I love it how you judge me as a person from things that I say on a forum, I think you need to get a grip, and realise that this forum doesn't represent people in real life. My real beliefs aren't aired in real life, you know that there's hundreds of extremely racist/homophobic teachers in the Country, but because they have a professional side to them, they don't air their opinions at work, it's called professionalism mate.

You don't know me in terms of conspiracy shit each other, I know the Government does things that it doesn't tell us about, but I know there's nothing that we can do about it, I just have different opinions over different Government policies, don't just brush the whole Government as being evil.

The reason I want to go into teaching is personal experience at school, because I hated education, that teachers had a brain-washed teaching technique was boring, and never got across to kids, whereas I aim to break that trend and able to teach children.

Oh, and look who 'agreed', good old caLLous.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Oh noes! Someone agrees with someone else!

CONSPIRACY

 

[Tom]

word spaghetti

Please don't ever think about teaching English.

 

[throdgrain]

On consideration of all the facts (that neither I nor anyone else here has)... I'd still say Jack Bauer is probably the answer.

However, failing that, we of course dont know what this man has done. As someone said maybe his release would compromise something else. Or maybe they know he's a shit head terrorist but cant prove it.

But on reflection I'd have to say that imprisonment without trial for a long time sounds too much like government bullshit to me, and I dont like it. Even if it IS to a foreigner I really dont think it has much to do with leaving the Europeon rubbish human rights thing, which just seems to give far too much help to criminals and soap dodgers as far as I'm concerned.

 

[soze]

It could be worse we could live in the kind of country where this guy just had an accident.

 

[Raven]

Or got shot on a train!

 

[soze]

But the fall out from that does reassure me that it is not a regular occurrence in the country.

 

[Genedril]

If he's done something wrong then charge him, if you're not going to charge him let him go. If he's held without charge then the terrorists are winning anyway. I'd quote Franklin but a. it's passée and b. I wish he wasn't American and there was another decent quote that sprang to mind.

In retrospect it's probably not passée at all given what the US and UK are up to atm .

On a side note if Gwadien wants to be a teacher then more power to him - I couldn't hack it and left. Unfortunately the 'brain washing' that he's upset about is normally the result of bad teaching methods and/or teachers desperately trying to get the Nat Cric covered so OFSTED don't turn up and decide you're a bad teacher (regardless of the ability of the kids being taught). I loved school and the fact that it taught me to think; that's why I wanted to be a teacher - the reality of being a teacher was a shock to me and I turned away from the thing I grew up wanting to do.

 

[Gwadien]

On a side note if Gwadien wants to be a teacher then more power to him - I couldn't hack it and left. Unfortunately the 'brain washing' that he's upset about is normally the result of bad teaching methods and/or teachers desperately trying to get the Nat Cric covered so OFSTED don't turn up and decide you're a bad teacher (regardless of the ability of the kids being taught). I loved school and the fact that it taught me to think; that's why I wanted to be a teacher - the reality of being a teacher was a shock to me and I turned away from the thing I grew up wanting to do.

That's what I lacked, all my teachers never taught us to think, they taught us to know what they told us, there was no expansion on things, and was very you'll learn what we tell you, don't challenge it.

 

[Scouse]

Bit of a dilemma to be honest, I'm all for freedom and such, but not when that person could potentially could be a threat to society.

You're not for freedom then Gwadien.

You can't be "for freedom, unless I'm worried something might be wrong". You either are, or aren't.

And you're not.

 

[Scouse]

Personally I could not give a fuck if he is/was a terrorist, all I want is that he was treated in the same way I expect to be treated

This. Because of;

If you want to live in a free society then these are the risks you must accept.

This.

It's a risk we must accept in a free society. The alternative is totalitarianism - something I'm totally intellectually against.

Any subversion of due process makes me "lose faith" in the government - as it is strong evidence that the government is becoming more totalitarian - i.e. facist.

That fact could well have real-world consequences considering we have a population of 60 million individuals. For example: If I was suddenly diagnosed with cancer, I may be much more likely to strap a bomb to myself and wait until cameron gets driven past. - And I'm a white middle-aged reasonably well-off British man without any religious indoctrination...

 

[DaGaffer]

The reason I want to go into teaching is personal experience at school, because I hated education, that teachers had a brain-washed teaching technique was boring, and never got across to kids, whereas I aim to break that trend and able to teach children.

Good luck with that. Has your entry for Miss World been accepted as well?

 

[Raven]

As a teacher you still have to follow the text laid out by the authority. These days teachers just teach to get kids through exams, not teach them to think.

 

[old.Tohtori]

they just want out 'cause they don't want a baby government.

 

[soze]

As a teacher you still have to follow the text laid out by the authority. These days teachers just teach to get kids through exams, not teach them to think.

I found when i was at School 12 years ago I had both kinds of teachers one that made the subject fun and others that only cared about the amount of you that passed. I got a good grade in 1 class its not hard to guess which. I do believe the right teacher can make the difference. But with pensions ect being so good for a teacher you will have people in it for the wrong reasons.

 

[rynnor]

For every power the Govt grants itself you have to think how it could be abused. Its nice to think that you could rely on intelligence agencies to identify proper terrorists who you could then restrain but experience shows that you cant.

So basically you have a power that directly contradicts our entire tradition of justice just so people can say look - we are doing something - its pathetic and another example of how fear can be used to push a country towards a dictatorship.

 

[Scouse]

You about Gwadien? Come defend your post in light of the above.

/lookingforafight

 

[Gwadien]

You about Gwadien? Come defend your post in light of the above.

/lookingforafight

*Sigh* if it'll entertain you.

My point is the Government/officials/members/authorities/super-agents are still human. Why would you want to keep someone locked up for that long if they've done nothing wrong, and if they have done nothing wrong, surely SOMEONE would know it's wrong and leak what's going on.

 

[Gumbo]

Here's a scenario. The same fella who could spill the goods on the locked up fella in court, is the fella who sabotaged the bombs on 21/7/05 so that they went *pop* instead of BANG!.

He's still in that position now, able to prevent another atrocity which could kill hundreds, he's a sleeper unknown to the terrorists.

Any trial, or meeting with journalists could ruin everything.

Would that be reason to keep him locked up?

Of course that's conspiracy theorist bollocks, but what if the reason is something like that?

Hang on someones at the door...

(Still playing devils advocate)

 

[Gwadien]

Here's a scenario. The same fella who could spill the goods on the locked up fella in court, is the fella who sabotaged the bombs on 21/7/05 so that they went *pop* instead of BANG!.

He's still in that position now, able to prevent another atrocity which could kill hundreds, he's a sleeper unknown to the terrorists.

Any trial, or meeting with journalists could ruin everything.

Would that be reason to keep him locked up?

Of course that's conspiracy theorist bollocks, but what if the reason is something like that?

Hang on someones at the door...

(Still playing devils advocate)

This is what I mean.

End of the day;

You can think your Government is trying to help you, and keep you safe.

Or, you can think that they're trying to control the nation, and keep them happy and docile.

 

[Raven]

If that was the case I reckon this guy would have fallen down several flights of stairs before he was even arrested. I actually think our government (And all governments) do carry out the odd hit from time to time.