The T.A.

[whipped]

Can't believe this. A friend of mine at work is in the T.A. and has been called up. Are we really that low on soldiers?

 

[icemaiden]

yea.. all our soldiers are covering for fire brigade muppets

 

[.cage]

communism :/

 

[xane]

I think TA mainly replace soldiers who are on "home duty" and are being called up for overseas duty.

This country is not short of soldiers, we have over 200,000 in active voluntary service, all professional, highly trained and well equipped. AFAIK around 25,000 are being sent to the Gulf, mainly from the Army.

The size of our armies compares nicely with other European nations in respect of our population size, although France and Germany have slightly more. By further comparison, the USA has 1.4 million active servicemen, of which around 200,000 are or will be on Gulf duty.

In light of current circumstances, Iraq has around 450,000 men, these are almost exclusively ground forces as they do not have a Navy or Air Force of any significance, however they are mainly conscripts and poorly trained and equipped.

Prior to Gulf War I, Iraq had amassed an army of over 1 million men and ranked 4th/5th in world military power, yet it was soundly defeated by a coalition army around 1/3 of the size. Iraq's army is now mainly ground troops, if any invasion is to take place it will be a different scenario this time round and more ground forces will be needed.

Surprizingly, the British forces are in fact "plugging gaps" in the US forces rather than augmenting the overall manpower, we have some very specialised units and skills, for example the low-level ground attack aircraft and the heavy rocket artillery (MLRS) units. Due to the environmental problems experienced by helicopter units in the last Gulf War, I wonder if this time round they'll be using the VSTOL aircraft we have too.

 

[nath]

I thought it was STOVL?

At least that's what Janes ADF would have me believe.


Man that game was win.

 

[xane]

I don't think there is much difference, "VSTOL" refers to aircraft like the Harrier that can and do take off vertically, although this drastically decreases their operating range, whereas "STOVL" refers to more modern aircraft like the F-35B JSF which can actually take off vertically and hover like the Harrier, but are not really designed to do so operationally, the orginal military requirements only demanded a vertical landing capacity.

 

[prime1]

It is the Firemans strike thats fucking us over for soldiers, however I believe calling up the reserves is so that they can be put on notice should things go badly, and brought up to operational standards (increased training to bring them up to fitness etc) regardless.

 

[Shocko]

Originally posted by prime1
It is the Firemans strike thats fucking us over for soldiers

Good for the firemen, i don't want war!

 

[Nos-]

http://www.territorial.co.uk/

My old Quake 2 clan, sad thing is people e-mail us thinking we're the real TA? :/

Funniest one (recieved about 10 so far) was some bloke wanting to join hoping that his drugs conviction wouldn't get him turned down ¦(

 

[.cage]

I wonder if the real TA has anyone in called 'Ninja' or 'Snoop'

 

[Nos-]

My point exactly. If this is the level of intelligence of the people wanting to fight for our country then god help us :/

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by xane

The size of our armies compares nicely with other European nations in respect of our population size, although France and Germany have slightly more. By further comparison, the USA has 1.4 million active servicemen, of which around 200,000 are or will be on Gulf duty.

Germany has about 350+ soldiers at the moment.
Back in '99 when I served it was about 450 k still - that's the numbers I have at least.

Germany still drafts - 9 months atm, 12 when I got drafted, though I chose to serve another 12 months.

*throws a towel over the thread...*

 

[Ukle]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)


Germany has about 350+ soldiers at the moment.
Back in '99 when I served it was about 450 k still - that's the numbers I have at least.

Germany still drafts - 9 months atm, 12 when I got drafted, though I chose to serve another 12 months.

*throws a towel over the thread...*

Though why do Germany and most other European Countries still have a draft rather than have a professional army? Could understand it in the cold war days but now it seems sort of backwards.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Ukle


Though why do Germany and most other European Countries still have a draft rather than have a professional army? Could understand it in the cold war days but now it seems sort of backwards.

Quite simple - as a draftee you have the choice between either joining the army or if you don't want to train for war/train to eventually kill people for reasons of conscience you will have to work in a hospital, nursing home etc.

Basically over the last 30-40 years the social system has become incredibly dependent on young men who refuse to join the army.
There is a severe lack of nurses in Germany - payment is bad, long working hours, emotional stress - big turn-offs.

So you have a couple of thousand hundred young guys every three months (the drafting periods) who are willed to work as male nurse aids etc.

If you took all that away, the public social system would basically collapse (to put it in a dramatic way).

There have been numerous discussions about abolishing the whole "citizen in uniform"-drafting yada yada.
Failed due to the lack of trained nurses, nurses aides etc. etc. etc.

Still, I enjoyed my time in the army ... for the most part.
And I absolutely respect the guys who do all the 'dirty' work in hospitals and nursing homes. Can't be all sugar - needless to say that they get 'extra punishment' by having to serve an extra three months..

 

[Ukle]

Sounds a bad situation Germany has got itself in then, as it would be very difficult for them to replace as you say all those nurses etc in one fail swoop, it would take decades of planning/phasing out. Surely is best to 'bite the bullet' now and phase it out now rather than let it stay. Especially if Europe gets its act together and creates one armed force, as if it doesn't get rid of the draft'es the size of the army would be approaching Chinas - 3 million.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Ukle
Though why do Germany and most other European Countries still have a draft rather than have a professional army? Could understand it in the cold war days but now it seems sort of backwards.

The UK did have a "draft" up till 1960, I can't only think that it ended because a number of conflicts involving Britain (Cyprus, Israel, Malaya, Korea) also came an end, plus more importantly a truckload of soldiers coming back from the newly independent India.

 

[Ukle]

Originally posted by xane


The UK did have a "draft" up till 1960, I can't only think that it ended because a number of conflicts involving Britain (Cyprus, Israel, Malaya, Korea) also came an end, plus more importantly a truckload of soldiers coming back from the newly independent India.

Yes and that was my reasoning as to question why most of Europe still has one... as the confilict that required it (the cold war) has ended.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Well, if you think about in a long term kind of way - up until 1990 Germany would have been the battleground for World War 3 - so the drafting was actually a good idea, ie due too having 'batches' of trained (over the years the duration of the time one had to serve, decreased in huge steps - 18 months about two years before I got drafted, 15 months a year before, 12 when I joined, 9 now.. etc.) soldiers/reserve it could have fielded a large number of combat troops in a short amount of time.

I think 13 years are a short time to change a doctrine that was formed in roughly 40 years.

Nowadays German army (known as Bundeswehr, translated as Federal Defence) can be seen as two.

The territorial defence - ie. heavy artillery, battletank and other less mobile forces.
and
Peace-keeping/crisis reaction forces - ie. paratroopers, mountain divisions, panzer grenadiers, some airforce units.

The latter get the best training and equipment (defence budgets have been very, very low over the last couple of years. For example: the German Tornados cannot be compared to the up to date RAF Tornados anymore, simply because the money to modernize them is lacking).

Originally posted by Ukle


Yes and that was my reasoning as to question why most of Europe still has one... as the confilict that required it (the cold war) has ended.

Actually most European governments did the smart thing and went for smaller, highly professional armies.

On a sidenote - a friend from Denmark told me that there is something like a drafting 'lottery' in Denmark.
If you "win" - you get drafted.
If you "lose" - you are a free man.

Now that is sick...heh

 

[Kippa.]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)


Germany has about 350+ soldiers at the moment.

time to invade lads

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Kippa.


time to invade lads

You need the proper sound to get into the right invading mood.
Bring on Wagner!

... and yes... I forgot the 'k' after 350.. *whistles*

 

[kameleon]

the UK srated relying more on nuclear wepons as a deterrent(threat if you like) in the sixties which could have contributed to the downsizing of the army.

 

[Ukle]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)
Actually most European governments did the smart thing and went for smaller, highly professional armies.

On a sidenote - a friend from Denmark told me that there is something like a drafting 'lottery' in Denmark.
If you "win" - you get drafted.
If you "lose" - you are a free man.

Now that is sick...heh

I think that is the same for most countries in Europe (dont have time to check for which countries at moment) although doubt if most operate a lottery. There are supprisingly few countries in Europe that do not operate some form of draft to inflate there armed forces. As you say 13 is a short time, but now it needs to be changed while there is still hope of realising it is not the norm and is only needed in times of crisis.

Got to love ask Jeeves just came up with this BBC news article about European Drafting and its phasing out -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1414033.stm

 

[danger]

Originally posted by kameleon
the UK srated relying more on nuclear wepons as a deterrent(threat if you like) in the sixties which could have contributed to the downsizing of the army.

Yeah after we nagged the yanks for ages to gives us the plans... then when they gave in we accidenataly leaked them to the USSR... Über l33t skillz!

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

gh3y russians ch34tz0red!!1