The Sorcerer Thread

[Aurelius A]

Not much to add to points Iskander and sorusi have already made but please dont break a mezz on a target when the sorc is still close to them (which we normally are as we kinda have to run into the frontline to mez ) as they will ignore whoever attcks them 90% of the time and come and give us poor sorcs a one way ticket to heaven with there spear/axe etc . Try and let us run away a little first plz then we can always root em aswell after etc and dd a bit.

The other point is i would love to see clerics use there stun more to break mez as would increase chances of survival much more as we can then dd them to death , look how hibs do it when i get mezzed by them i just know it will be broke by a stun followed by a few DD's so i cant even Quickcast. Yes i know hib casters get stun so easier for them to break with stun and dd and will be harder for albion as stun is minst/clerics not with casters but would still help more.

 

[Juanita]

On the bard numbers:

Quite some bard are actually bard-bots: Whack speed song on, cast all buffs, /stick and go. They are not being used for the mezzing at all. We'll see it more and more, if we head into the same direction as US servers...

 

[Subbiz]

for gods sake put a pbt bunny in groups with sorcs.. that will almost for sure make them survive first blow, atleast. Throw in a health buff of some sort to them also..
as a mid-pow, fighting albs is easy in most cases if numbers are straight, right untill some sorc pops in (or outlaw with his bloody freeze) and casts his/her ae mezz, then it gets lethal... protect the sorc untill 1-2 ae mezzes are cast, then let the sorc run back a bit behind the forces (dont go too far, some assassin will be waiting for u almost for certain) and then just stay there... dont start to nuke like hell right away. Let most people pick a target first. Thats the tactic I use for when I choose to frenzy also. If I do that in the very beginning of a big fight, i got down so fast u cant imagine.

In any case, a good mezzer will be primary target for any enemy who got the elbow room to go for the caster, but thats just natural, since the threat from a good aemezz is very big..

 

[[BF]kate]

Originally posted by Subbiz
for gods sake put a pbt bunny in groups with sorcs.. that will almost for sure make them survive first blow, atleast. Throw in a health buff of some sort to them also..

hehe.. a health buff? hadn't thought of that. Great idea!
/sarcasm

Thanks for the tips Sub, Albion is greatful for your help


No really, I have heard rumours that there are more and more sorcerers appearing in emain in the past few days.

 

[Tigerius]

God, just played my L24 alt Sorc in Thidranki. What a nightmare. Took me 2 runs, 10 mins, to get full understanding for the problems at hand

What can be done easily, (as have been said above) to raise life expectancy of sorcs is...

a) Remove that focus staff and epic robes of yours. I'm sorry that your stats may get nerfed, it's not optional.
b) Get a shield tank guarding the caster that actually stays near him, Slams and generally does his best in repelling any attackers. Aikmore can fill you in on the details of how to do this.
c) Clerics (and Minstrels) should mainly stun single targets attacking a Sorcerer, heals are many times too slow and will in many cases give less than every 1 hit takes. Stunning buys them time to move out of range. Instamezz works but will also render them mezz immune once the short duration expires. Rezz Sorcs in combat too, if not for their sake so for yours.
d) Sorcs get Long Wind II and Mastery of Concentration, again, not very optional.
e) Break mezzes with Stuns, should be perfectly obvious. Shield slam will be the most safe bet.

 

[old.FIN]

and whats needed =

sorc mezz
Albs dont brake it
Sorcs dies= REzz inside next 5 secs

Sorc gets RP's , Sorc stays in RVR

 

[nanorch]

thats a very nice forgone conclusion Fin

 

[Javai]

A shield specced Pally is a great asset to a Sorc, stick guard on them use slam for mezz breaking and rez asap so that they get rps for their efforts.

So all Sorcs please group with me and I'll stand on your shoulder and protect you to the best of my ability

 

[iskander_dymas]

Originally posted by Javai
A shield specced Pally is a great asset to a Sorc, stick guard on them use slam for mezz breaking and rez asap so that they get rps for their efforts.

So all Sorcs please group with me and I'll stand on your shoulder and protect you to the best of my ability

hehe yes Javai I must say you are one of the few people that actually tried to protect the sorc, and does a great job at it.
But it is a shame there are so many selfish people around, that only care about RP, and fail to see that keeping a sorc alive can benifit them in the long run.
Right now I am so fed up with the egiostical asses from Albion that I am quite happy on Prydwen, leveling an Hib

 

[sorusi]

Im fed up with albions lack of understanding for sorcs... and its more nerfs to come... time to bail out... well start to bail out

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by [BF]kate
Talfer - I disagree with you. Firstly a level 40 character will be eaten alive in RvR. I was trying to focus on the Sorcerers that we do have - 41 at levels 45-50.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Any sorc gets eaten alive in RvR the hit points at 50 aren't much greater than 41. If the sorc isn't protected they are going to die, and die fast. (See http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31969 on why I think we are at a disadvantage here)

Originally posted by [BF]kate
It does not matter what percentage they make up. However, if you want to concentrate on that... We have a similar number of Wizards at level 45-50 (47), and yet I don't think that a Wizard is a rare thing in RvR. It is almost more common to see a Friar (16 lvl 45-50) or Cabalist (5! Lvl 45-50) in RvR than a Sorcerer.

Of course it matters what percentage they make up. If the population consists of 0.001% sorcs then you'll rarely see one in Emain, if the population of sorcs is 50% you'll see them all the time. It's not as pronounce as that but it has an effect. You see more wizards in RvR because they like the zerg, they can farm rps easily in the zerg, at wall stand offs and keep raids etc... I think sorcs probably prefer smaller confrontation where they can defend themselves (or be defended by group mates) easier.

Originally posted by [BF]kate
The statistics of how many people you need to have present for a Sorcerer to statistically be there is complete nonsense. Those numbers have nothing to do with the fact that our Sorcerers are not getting any RP with the exception of 4 or 5 players. They are the most sought after player in RvR right now, therefore they should be able to get into the best groups and they should be able to earn RP just as well as other classes and certainly as well as other cloth caster classes. I mean come on! There are 5 level 45-50 cabbies right now and I see one or two AT THE SAME time when there are only 20 people in Emain. What are the chances of that statistically? Statistics are bs. We do not have proportionate numbers of Sorcerers to the Population in the Emain population. The issue isn't that we don't have Sorcerers - we do have them. The issue is that they don't RvR.

You are taking the statistics I have given too literally, they are just illustrations, the examples of how many people you need in Emain before you get a sorc is the scenario if you randomly pick players out of a hat, this situation isn't going to arise but it doesn't mean all the stats are nonsense. I see Elfslayer and Calot a lot too, that's because they are usually on the wall, with the zerg because they work well like that. If you are in the zerg, you see people in the zerg, you won't see the smaller groups running around on their own.

Originally posted by [BF]kate
The issue isn't that we don't have Sorcerers - we do have them. The issue is that they don't RvR.

This is what I disagree with, yes there are sorcerers about but we don't have them in the same numbers as bards and healers. You don't see every level 45-50 out in Emain all the time, why should you see every level 45-50 sorc out in Emain? The statistics are just there to show it's not as clear cut as you suggest.

Originally posted by [BF]kate
Your numbers and statistics are all well and good, but I can tell you from hours of experience in Emain:

**EVERY hib group has a bard because the HAVE to have them for the speed (ok there maybe one or two groups somewhere that don't have one, but they are still making their way from the Gorge, we might see them next week since they don't have speed). (note to hibbies: I am not saying it's your fault that you all have to have bards or that it's your fault that we don't have sorcerers or that bards are over powered. I am saying that you do have a bard in every group.)

**EVERY mid group has a healer - ok obviously small stealthier/skald groups sometimes don't have one, but most mid groups seems to have at least one, if not more healers. (note to mids, see above note to hibs)

You aren't taking what I've said into consideration here at all.
Every hib group has a bard becase there are plenty to go around, as every mid group has a healer because there are easily enough. There are nowhere near enough sorcs for every alb group. Now if you look at a few of the sorcs out there you'll find they don't just wander into Emain and join the zerg, Sorusi will be with First Cohort doing their thing, Riwen will be with the Red Devils on whatever adventure they have planed, Stt will be with GoL if they are out hunting (Disclaimer: Obviously not ALL the time, but hopefully you get the point). So the available sorcs for the zerg gets less and less. This isn't a problem for mids/hibs because there are still plenty of bards/healers after the hunting parties have left.

Originally posted by [BF]kate
Back to the questions at hand...
What can we do to make RvR more fun for Sorcerers?

It sounds like it comes down to the fact that we don't look after them well enough. So screaming that we need more sorcerers is all well and good, but if we aren't looking after the few we have, then what is the point in getting more? They just will quit playing too.

The best way to defend a sorc is to have two
One gets attacked the other throws in the mez to save them

The trouble is we don't have the same kind of defense that hib/mids have. I know from experience that if you jump a hib bard/caster you WILL get stunned, because every hib caster can stun you, if you jump a mid healer/caster, you WILL get stunned because the healer has an instant get out of jail free button. The only way to stop the tank from killing the caster is either jump on them with 10+ people and kill them very very fast, or stop them from being able to attack, stun/mez and root to a lesser extent.
When you jump an alb caster, you might well die, but it will more likely be death my tank hacking and nuking, but this still allows you to beat on the alb caster and maybe kill it before you bite the dust. So the best defense for the sorc is probably a minstrel then maybe a cleric (But they don't get quickcast like the hib casters), probably on a par with a slamming tank. Who else gets stun?

Talifer

 

[Flimgoblin]

sorcs die first... in PvE and RvR
it kinda gets to them a bit...

aoe mezz - anything that resists, comes straight for you.

Unlike a minstrel you can't survive that long...

aoe mezz in RvR - EVERYTHING comes straight for you.

With any luck 1.53 will let the tanks that buy Prevent Flight stop that troll from just rushing straight towards you.... but you need to persuade yer tanks to A: buy it and B: stick close enough to help.

 

[Juanita]

Originally posted by Talifer

I know from experience that if you jump a hib bard/caster you WILL get stunned, because every hib caster can stun you

I'm sorry, but as a bard i haven't found any stun yet in my spell list, let alone instastun.

 

[Tigerius]

If you actually read what he said you'd see that he said that WHEN he jumps a Hib Bard/Caster he will get stunned by another caster. Not by the Caster/Bard themselves.

 

[bf_kate]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Any sorc gets eaten alive in RvR the hit points at 50 aren't much greater than 41. If the sorc isn't protected they are going to die, and die fast. (See http://forums.barrysworld.com/showt...&threadid=31969 on why I think we are at a disadvantage here)

Hit points aren’t everything. At level 50 you should have better spells, better pets, better armour and hopefully you have gotten more +hp and +cons items along the way from 40 to 50. Not to mention the fact that you should be a much better player at level 50 after practicing for 10 very long levels. Of course a level 50 has a better chance than a level 40, don’t be silly. I don’t really see what your point is or why you’re arguing with me. (You obviously haven’t heard that I am always right, so I will forgive you. )

Of course it matters what percentage they make up. If the population consists of 0.001% sorcs then you'll rarely see one in Emain, if the population of sorcs is 50% you'll see them all the time. It's not as pronounce as that but it has an effect. You see more wizards in RvR because they like the zerg, they can farm rps easily in the zerg, at wall stand offs and keep raids etc... I think sorcs probably prefer smaller confrontation where they can defend themselves (or be defended by group mates) easier.

Talifer, sorry but you’re just talking in circles around yourself. I don’t care about the what ifs (what if the population was 1% or 50%…it’s not the case so to talk about these what ifs is neither here nor there…). The fact is that we have about the same number of wizards and sorcerers, yet the wizards come to rvr and the sorc don’t. Therefore the sorc obviously aren’t happy. This was my point in my original post. Again, it’s not that we don’t have sorcerers at high levels, it is that they don’t enjoy rvr. So I don’t really understand why you’re just repeating what I said in the first place.

You are taking the statistics I have given too literally, they are just illustrations, the examples of how many people you need in Emain before you get a sorc is the scenario if you randomly pick players out of a hat, this situation isn't going to arise but it doesn't mean all the stats are nonsense. I see Elfslayer and Calot a lot too, that's because they are usually on the wall, with the zerg because they work well like that. If you are in the zerg, you see people in the zerg, you won't see the smaller groups running around on their own.

Sorry, but I do think the statistics are nonsense. Your statistics aren’t applicable to the situation. I am not normally in the zerg, but I see the zerg. I see who is porting. I see /who emain shows hardly any sorcerers (unless they are all anon and hiding from me).


This is what I disagree with, yes there are sorcerers about but we don't have them in the same numbers as bards and healers. You don't see every level 45-50 out in Emain all the time, why should you see every level 45-50 sorc out in Emain? The statistics are just there to show it's not as clear cut as you suggest.

Um, I already pointed out that we have around the same number of high level sorc as hib has high level bards. I am not going to talk about how many healers mid has cause it’s just depressing (and it has nothing to do with the Albion situation anyhow). I don’t expect to see EVERY sorcerer always in emain. I started this thread because we had 3-4 sorcerers in emain and not at the same time. I wanted to know why the other 35 were so unhappy in rvr. I don’t think I suggested it was clear-cut. I think I suggested that we need to have a discussion to educate Albion as to what will make our lovely sorcerers happy.


You aren't taking what I've said into consideration here at all.
Every hib group has a bard becase there are plenty to go around, as every mid group has a healer because there are easily enough. There are nowhere near enough sorcs for every alb group. Now if you look at a few of the sorcs out there you'll find they don't just wander into Emain and join the zerg, Sorusi will be with First Cohort doing their thing, Riwen will be with the Red Devils on whatever adventure they have planed, Stt will be with GoL if they are out hunting (Disclaimer: Obviously not ALL the time, but hopefully you get the point). So the available sorcs for the zerg gets less and less. This isn't a problem for mids/hibs because there are still plenty of bards/healers after the hunting parties have left.

Go back and read my first post. There are not plenty of bards at all. There is about the same number of bards as sorcerers. I think just about any hib will tell you that there are NOT plenty of bards. In fact, almost every hib group I run in to seems to have only one bard. This maybe because only one is needed, but I think it’s more likely to be because of a lack of bards… I mean who wouldn’t want two mezzers in a group? Maybe you haven’t noticed this if you are in the zerg often. I don’t expect EVERY alb group to have a sorcerer. I just wanted to know what we can do to make rvr better for the ones we have. I am not talking about for the zerg either. I could care less about the zerg tbh (sorry zergers, but it’s not my idea of fun).

The best way to defend a sorc is to have two
One gets attacked the other throws in the mez to save them

Well two sorcerers sounds good in theory, but I don’t know if that is statistically possible.

The trouble is we don't have the same kind of defense that hib/mids have.

We have plenty of defense in Albion. We just don’t use it.

I know from experience that if you jump a hib bard/caster you WILL get stunned, because every hib caster can stun you, if you jump a mid healer/caster, you WILL get stunned because the healer has an instant get out of jail free button. The only way to stop the tank from killing the caster is either jump on them with 10+ people and kill them very very fast, or stop them from being able to attack, stun/mez and root to a lesser extent.
When you jump an alb caster, you might well die, but it will more likely be death my tank hacking and nuking, but this still allows you to beat on the alb caster and maybe kill it before you bite the dust. So the best defense for the sorc is probably a minstrel then maybe a cleric (But they don't get quickcast like the hib casters), probably on a par with a slamming tank. Who else gets stun?

Talifer

The point to the above in my mind is that whoever gets the mez off first should win. However, the hibs and mids are much better at controlling the situation after the mez. As for stun: Minstrels get stun, clerics get stun, some tanks and scouts get slam. Anyhow. We have root on several casters. Root would work just as well to stop a tank from attacking a caster. Tank attacks caster, other caster roots, first caster gets away. This is assuming we aren’t all mezzed.


The best defence for a sorcerer as far as I can see is for them to run in do their mez, then run away. Sprint if anything is on them. All the while they need 1 (preferably 2) clerics with them targeted. Then it’s up to the other Albs not to be stupid by breaking mez on the wrong targets. Mids always leave me for last in a battle because they know that if they break my mez, then I will pbaoe mez them and then hopefully survive. Albions cannot seem to get this idea through their heads with regards to healers. Also, Alb tanks seem to HAVE to attack tanks first, even if they are mezzed. It’s very frustrating. Hopefully some people will read this thread and listen to the what the sorcerers are saying.

 

[iskander_dymas]

Originally posted by bf_kate
Hopefully some people will read this thread and listen to the what the sorcerers are saying.

I doubt it, actualy I am coninced they won't, untill they find little to no sorcs anymore in RvR (but then again with 1.53 there will be little point in a pure mezz char in RvR)

So it will be R.I.P. for most of the old sorcerers, who been here since day one of release

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Juanita



I'm sorry, but as a bard i haven't found any stun yet in my spell list, let alone instastun.

It's not the bard that stuns you it the hib casters, because they all get stun.

Talifer

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by bf_kate

Talifer, sorry but you’re just talking in circles around yourself. I don’t care about the what ifs (what if the population was 1% or 50%…it’s not the case so to talk about these what ifs is neither here nor there…). The fact is that we have about the same number of wizards and sorcerers, yet the wizards come to rvr and the sorc don’t. Therefore the sorc obviously aren’t happy. This was my point in my original post. Again, it’s not that we don’t have sorcerers at high levels, it is that they don’t enjoy rvr. So I don’t really understand why you’re just repeating what I said in the first place.

What?
This is not about what ifs. I'm not saying the population is 1% I'm not saying the population is 50% I'm saying the population makes a difference to the number of sorcs in Emain, 1% and 50% being extreme illustrations of this. You can't just disregard the fact that sorc population IS a low percentage. Whether there are more wizards out there for the low percentages is debatable anyway.

Originally posted by bf_kate

Sorry, but I do think the statistics are nonsense. Your statistics aren’t applicable to the situation. I am not normally in the zerg, but I see the zerg. I see who is porting. I see /who emain shows hardly any sorcerers (unless they are all anon and hiding from me).

But are you actually taking into account how many PEOPLE are in Emain, that's my point. If you do a /who sorc and there are 3 in Emain, does that mean no sorcs are RvRing? Of course not, if there are only 10 people in Emain in total, then it means that a very high proportion of sorcs are actually RvRing, see below.

Originally posted by bf_kate
Um, I already pointed out that we have around the same number of high level sorc as hib has high level bards. I am not going to talk about how many healers mid has cause it’s just depressing (and it has nothing to do with the Albion situation anyhow). I don’t expect to see EVERY sorcerer always in emain. I started this thread because we had 3-4 sorcerers in emain and not at the same time. I wanted to know why the other 35 were so unhappy in rvr. I don’t think I suggested it was clear-cut. I think I suggested that we need to have a discussion to educate Albion as to what will make our lovely sorcerers happy.
[/B]

But you aren't taking into account how many people 45+ in GENERAL are taking part in RvR at any one time. You can't expect 100% of sorcs to be in Emain if only 20% of the entire population is, we need to keep things in context.

Originally posted by bf_kate

Go back and read my first post. There are not plenty of bards at all. There is about the same number of bards as sorcerers. I think just about any hib will tell you that there are NOT plenty of bards. In fact, almost every hib group I run in to seems to have only one bard. This maybe because only one is needed, but I think it’s more likely to be because of a lack of bards… I mean who wouldn’t want two mezzers in a group? Maybe you haven’t noticed this if you are in the zerg often. I don’t expect EVERY alb group to have a sorcerer. I just wanted to know what we can do to make rvr better for the ones we have. I am not talking about for the zerg either. I could care less about the zerg tbh (sorry zergers, but it’s not my idea of fun).

Every group has ONLY one bard! That's the point, pretty much every group in hib CAN have a bard, unlike albs and sorcs. This is why albs usually needs the zerg to win. If there are 30 hibs at AMG, chances are there are 4-5 bards with them. 30 albs get to AMG the odds are they have only 1 sorc. If we have more than that then your original argument that sorcs aren't going to RvR is wrong, because obviously they RvR more than the average player.

What you need to do is check out how many sorcs are around and how many people in total, then you can see if sorcs really are RvRing less than anyone else.
I see on a regular basis the following sorcs in Emain, these are the names I either recognise or have grouped with so this is a low estimate (Sorry to all the sorcs I don't notice I've left out <45 in level)

Afun
Aurelius
Athenea
Elvo
Iskander
Riwen
Spandau
Sorusi
Stt
Veeshan
Wou

That's 11 sorcs. If these 11 sorcs are in emain it means 25% of all the 45+ sorcs are in Emain. If these sorcs are RvRing less than any other class in general, then there should be 200+ level 45+ albs in Emain at the same time (total 45+ population 766). That's one large force in Emain, and doesn't take into account the large number of sub 45s that appear in a /who emain.
If we take what you have said, that you saw /who sorc emain = 4. Then there should also have been 69 level 45+ other albs in Emain.

Now, how to protect sorcs is a very good discussion topic and is worthy of heavy debate, but in response to your original post

Originally posted by bf_kate
If you compare these numbers to any other Albion class then it's obvious that our sorcerers aren't participating in RvR

I would disagree, it is far from obvious, just because you see the total number of sorcs in Emain is 3-4, does not mean they participate any less than anyone else.

Talifer

[Edit: Ooops how could I forget Fatsy ]

 

[iskander_dymas]

a few more reasons:

thanks to meekrobe for his excellent pictures.
The whole list can be found somewhere on the sorc boards
http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/daoc/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=21

 

[Loth]

heheh Meeks sigs are great

all ARE HERE

My fav :

 

[old.Ebeneezer]

What's a good build for sorcs?

I'm particularly intrigued by Veeshan's build.

 

[Aurelius A]

Veeshans build is 45 body rest in mind, gives a nice dd but not very good mez and pets.

theres 2 other builds really which are 41 body, 34 mind which gives a balanced combination ofmez and dd or 44mind rest body which gives good mez and crap dd (but still have a quite good baselne lifedrain)

 

[Aurelius A]

Veeshans build is 45 body rest in mind, gives a nice dd but not very good mez and pets.

theres 2 other builds really which are 41 body, 34 mind which gives a balanced combination ofmez and dd or 44mind rest body which gives good mez and crap dd (but still have a quite good baselne lifedrain)