The qu'ran - Channel 4

[old.Tohtori]

oh i see so stealing and taking a bus on saturday are the same. And I would hardly call dont steal a religious law, yes it is written in the bible, but it has nothing to do with belief or god or religion.

Also did you actually read the bible? Its a mandatory subject here, so I studied it for 12 years, I seriously dont know how people can justify many of god's or his followers acts there. Yes this is getting off-topic I know, but in the bible God has the highest kill-count by far.
Also contradicting his own laws multiple times, like the "dont kill law".
so really gj there.

First, no i didn't read the bible fully, i've read it, i know of it, but I'm of a different religion. Hate this "all religious people believe in god and bible" cr*p.

Now then, stealing was simply an example and not a comparison.

Please try to keep on what was said.

"Many laws of our culture is based on religion"
"If it's THEIR law to not ride the bus, shouldn't you respect THEIR laws as you would expect THEM to obey YOUR laws?"

Also, if you get pressies on santamas, you get them due to religion, pagan religion, but religion still.

 

[aika]

I still cant see how I disrespect their laws by riding on the bus. Why do they care? Its not like I force them to take a bus every saturday.

And its not a law anyway, there's no line in the bible that you cant ride a bus obviously, only that you need to REST on saturday.
Later religious scholars understood it in their own way, and this cannot be disputed and is forced on ALL the country's population. I'm pretty sure that most modern laws are logical and most people agree on them.

I dont see any logic or need in this law, they can keep it to themselves and just not use the bus themselves, why force it on everyone?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I still cant see how I disrespect their laws by riding on the bus. Why do they care? Its not like I force them to take a bus every saturday.

And its not a law anyway, there's no line in the bible that you cant ride a bus obviously, only that you need to REST on saturday.
Later religious scholars understood it in their own way, and this cannot be disputed and is forced on ALL the country's population. I'm pretty sure that most modern laws are logical and most people agree on them.

I dont see any logic or need in this law, they can keep it to themselves and just not use the bus themselves, why force it on everyone?

Because it's THEIR law. That's what i've been trying to tell you.

I'm betting they find alot of your ways "disrespectful" ot "weird", but you wouldn't go changing your laws to accomodate them, would you?

If something is silly to you, it doesn't make it silly for all, and...when in rome.

 

[aika]

I think you misunderstood me, religious people in Israel are like ~15% of the population, in order to respect their laws and traditions the other 85% have to change it ways and behave accordingly. While the same thing doesnt apply on the religious minority, its like this holier than thou attitude which really makes me rage ;(

To give you another example, there was a small festival in Jerusalem a few weeks ago, because some religious people attended it, the school girls participating in it had to wear hoods and clothes that cover all their body that made them look like some aliens.

Why should we tolerate their traditions while they dont tolerate and dont wanna even talk about secular ways of living?
Why because of the will of some people that still live in the Dark Ages those girls had to suffer and wear such clothes at like 30+ heat?
They dont have to attend to that festival, if those girls are somehow disrespecting their religion, they are more than welcome not to come.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But, if it's their way, and the law supports it, it's the law of the land.

If they said "in the UK, thou shalt not eat beans on a friday" and the law said "this is how it is", then that's how it would be.

As i said, when in rome.

I'm not saying those laws are right(or wrong), i'm saying that it's how it is and if you want to live there, you have to live by them.

OR....you should support all law changes on all things demanded by all people because they too "don't want things to be like this".

 

[rynnor]

Good point. Don't see many atheist people complaining that they get pressies, or holidays.

Those things are actually more cultural than religious - christmas is older than christianity for example - christmas trees came from Prince Albert - father christmas as a jolly red fatman comes from coca cola (till then he was always in green) - the giving of gifts is probably pagan as is christmas itself (if you believe in christ then he was supposedly born in jan/feb).

Easter is named after the ancient goddess of fertility - Eastara whose symbol was the egg and the rabbit for obvious reasons Christians couldnt wipe these out so just claimed them instead.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Those things are actually more cultural than religious - christmas is older than christianity for example - christmas trees came from Prince Albert - father christmas as a jolly red fatman comes from coca cola (till then he was always in green) - the giving of gifts is probably pagan as is christmas itself (if you believe in christ then he was supposedly born in jan/feb).

Easter is named after the ancient goddess of fertility - Eastara whose symbol was the egg and the rabbit for obvious reasons Christians couldnt wipe these out so just claimed them instead.

Aye, but still religious things

Even santamas was originally(up here in finland ya see) a "pagan" holiday.

They all derive from religion, were it "pagan", church, or adapted to modern days by media.

 

[rynnor]

Well, i don't know where the peadophile thing came from,

He's referring to Ayesha - the child wife of Mohammed when he was an old man in his 50s.

Ayesha the child wife of the Prophet

 

[rynnor]

Aye, but still religious things

Spiritual yes but religious might be stretching it by todays use of the word - we know very little about pagan's thanks to the Roman Catholic church supressing them but it seems likely that it was more like a lot of very local cults with differing superstitions rather than a single organisation.

The term Pagan is a catch-all.

Edit - oh and modern pagans are just a bunch of idiots who make it all up as they go along - they exist mostly due to a revival sparked by a guy who wrote a fancifull book about it back in the 1800's.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Spiritual yes but religious might be stretching it by todays use of the word - we know very little about pagan's thanks to the Roman Catholic church supressing them but it seems likely that it was more like a lot of very local cults with differing superstitions rather than a single organisation.

The term Pagan is a catch-all.

Yeah they weren't organised like the current religions, but still religions in the spiritual sense. Still a valid point

Let's say it like this, none of the festivals we have would be around without gods/god.

EDIT: Yeah, not talking about modern pagans, and i use "pagan" in "" because, as an example, in viking belief, everyone else was pagan. Pagan, i think if i remember correctly, originally meant "non believer" or some such.

 

[Dahakon]

Edit - oh and modern pagans are just a bunch of idiots who make it all up as they go along - they exist mostly due to a revival sparked by a guy who wrote a fancifull book about it back in the 1800's.

Actually it was written in 1954, after the witchcraft laws where repealed in England, if you are going to mock someone's beliefs, at least get your facts straight

Pagan, i think if i remember correctly, originally meant "non believer" or some such.

It comes from the Roman term for a country dweller, much like a country bumpkin or something today.

He's referring to Ayesha - the child wife of Mohammed when he was an old man in his 50s.

While this is true, lets not forget that Mary was probably only about 12 or 13 when she gave birth to Jesus; it's a bit harsh to judge a 2000+ year old culture by modern moral standards imo.

 

[rynnor]

Actually it was written in 1954, after the witchcraft laws where repealed in England, if you are going to mock someone's beliefs, at least get your facts straight.

Sorry but your wrong - "In the 18th century, England and Wales experienced a Druid revival, inspired by e. g. John Aubrey, John Toland and William Stukely. There is strong evidence to suggest that William Blake was involved in the Druid revival and may have been an Archdruid. "

Druids - Crystalinks

While this is true, lets not forget that Mary was probably only about 12 or 13 when she gave birth to Jesus; it's a bit harsh to judge a 2000+ year old culture by modern moral standards imo.

Well she was said to be 6 when he married her and 9 when he slept with her - which would still have been young then plus of course Islam dates back 1300 years not 2000.

 

[old.Tohtori]

It comes from the Roman term for a country dweller, much like a country bumpkin or something today.

Ah but the meaning of it, even if the word is different, meant different things. Like in scandic countries i believe it meant a non-believer/outsider. But basically the same.

What i meant is that to all nations/religions, everyone else is a pagan.

 

[old.windforce]

Let's say it like this, none of the festivals we have would be around without gods/god.

That is if you believe something like a god exist.
I agree those parties where the product of religion mostly dating fromlong before why we celebrate them now.

take Christmas f.i.

Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jeremiah]

I think what he is trying to say is that the vast majority of major festivals are in some way religious. And by religious he means people who have a belief in any kind of God or Gods. For example, Pagan festivals were to celebrate or worship what they held as Gods - like the Sun or Nature.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think what he is trying to say is that the vast majority of major festivals are in some way religious. And by religious he means people who have a belief in any kind of God or Gods. For example, Pagan festivals were to celebrate or worship what they held as Gods - like the Sun or Nature.

Exactly.

There ain't many science festivals, so saying "religion is all bad", is a bit hypocritical if you take vacations or celebrate any festivals

Not saying you shouldn't, or that there's anything wrong there, just saying one should consider all points before denouncing something a 100%.

 

[Dahakon]

Sorry but your wrong - "In the 18th century, England and Wales experienced a Druid revival, inspired by e. g. John Aubrey, John Toland and William Stukely. There is strong evidence to suggest that William Blake was involved in the Druid revival and may have been an Archdruid. "

Druids - Crystalinks

While that's true, the Druids that that quote is talking about, of which Winston Churchill was a member, where all Christian, and had Bibles at their meetings. Modern Paganism comes from Wicca, inspired by Gerald Gardner from 1954 onwards.