The qu'ran - Channel 4

[Chronictank]

Anyone watching it?, i found it pretty interesting thus far

 

[Ch3tan]

Yeah was really good stuff.

Just reinforces for me how scary religion is.

 

[Bahumat]

I've seen some programs on it and found it quite interesting. I'll never read all the different religous bibles, but it'd be nice to read them all and see what I thought about it.

 

[Lamp]

Do you take a literal interpretation of whats in the text ?

Or do you apply an allegorical interpretation ?

Do you read someone else's interpretation of what a religious text tells you it says ?

 

[Chronictank]

i can't understand arabic (i can read it but not comprehend what it says, example reading german but only speaking english you get the occasional sentance but miss most of it)
As such i dont have the choice to read literal text thus i rely on other people's translations, i have to put logic on what i understand and try to work out the meaning behind it rather than the literal text
It was very briefly covered in the program but that is one of the key concepts, why scholars say it doesn't matter what language it is in

The very fact you are encouraged to critically analyse and extract concepts is central to the book, the whole concept of inner discovery is reitterated many times.

So short answer i derive logic from the translation rather than read it literally, i sometimes read other peoples interpretations and cross reference to something i think is what i want to believe in.
It was never intended to be followed like law or a instruction manual, anyone who says otherwise has an alternative agenda be it themselves or the person who taught them.
The qu'ran is simply a guide, like a map
All the information is there, but it is useless unless you have somewhere you want to go

What annoys me deeply is people who follow blindly what they are told by someone else with no conformation themselves, the whole idea is self reflectance, and bettering oneself, how can you do that if all you do is follow like a sheep?

 

[Lamp]

So you get people applying a different spin on the text based on what they want to believe. So is the Islam practiced by everday peaceful folk a different religion to the violent extremists ? Or same religion just different spin ? Kind of hard to weigh up the lives of innocents on the justification of spin. Guess thats religion for you. All religions.

 

[Chronictank]

So you get people applying a different spin on the text based on what they want to believe. So is the Islam practiced by everday peaceful folk a different religion to the violent extremists ? Or same religion just different spin ? Kind of hard to weigh up the lives of innocents on the justification of spin. Guess thats religion for you. All religions.

Ok take this text

Once upon a time there was a guy named Lamp
He lived a peaceful life, in a small village
One day his village was burned to the ground by evil monkeys
In his anger lamp killed all the monkeys because they were evil
Lamp later regretted what he had done and reflected on it to gain balance again
Lamp was rewarded with inner peace

Right, now if i change this to

Once upon a time there was a guy named Lamp
lamp killed all the monkeys because they were evil
Lamp was rewarded with inner peace

This is essentially what people do to twist it, they pick and choose what they want, but more than that they insert things into the text to change its meaning. Before this was not much of an issue as it was relatively difficult to distribute edited text on a mass scale, however the mainstream use of the internet and satellite tv makes it ridiculously easy.
People go and look if the passages exist and they do, but they are taken out of context

 

[Bahumat]

Ok take this text

Once upon a time there was a guy named Lamp
He lived a peaceful life, in a small village
One day his village was burned to the ground by evil monkeys
In his anger lamp killed all the monkeys because they were evil
Lamp later regretted what he had done and reflected on it to gain balance again
Lamp was rewarded with inner peace

Right, now if i change this to

Once upon a time there was a guy named Lamp
lamp killed all the monkeys because they were evil
Lamp was rewarded with inner peace

This is essentially what people do to twist it, they pick and choose what they want, but more than that they insert things into the text to change its meaning. Before this was not much of an issue as it was relatively difficult to distribute edited text on a mass scale, however the mainstream use of the internet and satellite tv makes it ridiculously easy.
People go and look if the passages exist and they do, but they are taken out of context

So what type of monkeys did he kill? Cause some are holy...

 

[Laddey]

Are you a religious person Chronicwank?

 

[Chronictank]

Are you a religious person Chronicwank?

not overly to be honest, i believe there is a higher power who had a influence on our existence and when i die it's not the end.
I am simply looking for what the best guide to find the answers i am looking for is, and for the moment at least i think i found it
Nothing more, nothing less

At the risk of sounding too deep, i personally think the whole point of life is to self-reflect and better yourself not simply go through the motions and eventually die.

 

[Overdriven]

I actually watched the first 45 minutes of this, was rather interesting. "They all faced Jerusalem" (my spelling is shite) to pray, then they faced Mecca... Proof, religion was originally based on christianity.

*Waits to be flamed*

Spoiler

.. or blown up

 

[Chronictank]

I actually watched the first 45 minutes of this, was rather interesting. "They all faced Jerusalem" (my spelling is shite) to pray, then they faced Mecca... Proof, religion was originally based on christianity.

*Waits to be flamed*

Well not really , they initially prayed towards a mosque in Jerusalem called Al Aksa then Muhammad (pbuh) because it was the closest mosque to them and said he was told by god what he was doing was wrong and got them to change direction.
This is why Jerusalem is deemed as "holy" by many muslims, oddly enough Al Aksa mosque is not mentioned in the qu'ran but the surrounding area is mentioned as being holy.

bukhari:
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 39:

Narrated Al-Bara' (bin 'Azib):

When the Prophet came to Medina, he stayed first with his grandfathers or maternal uncles from Ansar. He offered his prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis (Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months, but he wished that he could pray facing the Ka'ba (at Mecca). The first prayer which he offered facing the Ka'ba was the 'Asr prayer in the company of some people. Then one of those who had offered that prayer with him came out and passed by some people in a mosque who were bowing during their prayers (facing Jerusalem). He said addressing them, "By Allah, I testify that I have prayed with Allah's Apostle facing Mecca (Ka'ba)." Hearing that, those people changed their direction towards the Ka'ba immediately. Jews and the people of the scriptures used to be pleased to see the Prophet facing Jerusalem in prayers but when he changed his direction towards the Ka'ba, during the prayers, they disapproved of it.
Al-Bara' added, "Before we changed our direction towards the Ka'ba (Mecca) in prayers, some Muslims had died or had been killed and we did not know what to say about them (regarding their prayers.) Allah then revealed: ‘And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. the prayers of those Muslims were valid).’" (2:143).

 

[old.windforce]

Muhammad was a pedophile and God doesn't exist

People who try to force you to believe something are scary fanatics

I believe in freedom of speech and the right to NOT believe 2000 year old fairy tales

 

[old.Tohtori]

I believe in freedom of speech and the right to NOT believe 2000 year old fairy tales

Without getting too much into the religion discussion; goes both ways.

If you want the right to NOT believe, give people the right TO believe and out of common courtesy, one shouldn't bash another for his beliefs(or other things) unless he bashes you first.

 

[Chronictank]

Muhammad was a pedophile and God doesn't exist

People who try to force you to believe something are scary fanatics

I believe in freedom of speech and the right to NOT believe 2000 year old fairy tales

So you basically don't believe in freedom of speech

Edit: doh seel beat me to it

 

[Aoami]

I went to a C of E primary school and we read bible stories every day. We also studied Dinosaurs every term, and as a result a though God was a T-Rex untill I was about 9.

Then i had a revelation - God is actually a Buddhist Hippo-Monkey.

 

[old.windforce]

Without getting too much into the religion discussion; goes both ways.

If you want the right to NOT believe, give people the right TO believe and out of common courtesy, one shouldn't bash another for his beliefs(or other things) unless he bashes you first.

I don't want the right to NOT believe, i demand it.

And getting married to your 9 year old niece makes you a pedophile in my belief.

People can believe whatever they want for all i care. I am not bashing people for their belief, i just don't care if people can't cope with my interpretation of ancient facts.

 

[old.windforce]

So you basically don't believe in freedom of speech

Edit: doh seel beat me to it

i fail to see how you reached this conclusion. Might have something to do with not being a native speaker.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't want the right to NOT believe, i demand it.

And getting married to your 9 year old niece makes you a pedophile in my belief.

People can believe whatever they want for all i care. I am not bashing people for their belief, i just don't care if people can't cope with my interpretation of ancient facts.

Well, i don't know where the peadophile thing came from, but...for the rest of the post...it seems you can cope with people having beliefs, and don't bash them for it, so it's all cool.

Especially if you don't just laugh and go "religion, bah, humbug" because that's basically telling someone they are stupid/etc. Which is not nice.

Hope you get what i mean

 

[Chronictank]

i fail to see how you reached this conclusion. Might have something to do with not being a native speaker.

you clarified with your last post so i withdraw the comment

As for not respecting other peoples beliefs, there is a difference between simply being a tit and not being allowed to be one
You are allowed to be one, but as a result it makes you no different to the people saying your scum for not buying into x belief

 

[old.windforce]

you clarified with your last post so i withdraw the comment

As for not respecting other peoples beliefs, there is a difference between simply being a tit and not being allowed to be one
You are allowed to be one, but as a result it makes you no different to the people saying your scum for not buying into x belief

I can see your point, i just don't agree with it.
I do respect people and their opinion. I don't respect belief. Simple because belief is not the same as people.

And where does respect for someones belief end and being ruled be someones sensitivity begin? In my country art can contain nudeness and being homosexual is allowed. Some beliefs are heavy offended by those things. Should we give up our freedom to prevent people being offended in the eye of their religion?

Its a thin line and i think we should guard our freedom in favor of religion

 

[Chronictank]

I can see your point, i just don't agree with it.
I do respect people and their opinion. I don't respect belief. Simple because belief is not the same as people.

Fair enough

And where does respect for someones belief end and being ruled be someones sensitivity begin? In my country art can contain nudeness and being homosexual is allowed. Some beliefs are heavy offended by those things. Should we give up our freedom to prevent people being offended in the eye of their religion?

Its a thin line and i think we should guard our freedom in favor of religion

i dont disagree at all with you, but the problem is hypocracy (sp?)
Either everyone is allowed to say anything or everything is censored not selectively based on who is fotm to hate

I think this is the issue tbh, the double standards which have grown over time
The fact things are banned on behalf of a group without even consulting them in case they could possibly maybe be offended by it is utterly absurd

Don't even get me started on posotive discrimination

 

[aika]

The problem with religion is that it usually dictates and wants to rule other people's lives.
I can give you an example from Israel. Since saturday is considered a holy day in the jewish religion, public transportaiton doesnt work on this day. Now for example if I dont believe in this (and most people here dont), still because there's a religious minority we get massive protests and cant make a law to allow public trasportation to work on saturday.
Why do they care? No one forces them to take a bus on their so called holy day.

I think you get my point.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah but Aika, we're not advocating for that kind of behaviour, just the opposite. Religious or not, all manners of discussion towards and/or about someone elses beliefs should be treated with mutual respect.

As in, don't diss someone for believing and don't diss someone for not believing.

I could also say that all non-believers are stupid, ignorant, moronic etc etc...but i won't. It's all alright aslong as there's no disrespect.

 

[aika]

I dont diss, I just think its pretty stupid to live in 2008 according to laws that were made in 1000 BC, or in 700 something AD if its Islam, and to force those laws on other people.

 

[Chronictank]

I dont diss, I just think its pretty stupid to live in 2008 according to laws that were made in 1000 BC, or in 700 something AD if its Islam, and to force those laws on other people.

yet you are forcing your lack of belief on others, it is not stupid to follow a law regardless when it was created if it is still valid (ignoring for a moment that there are no laws in the qu'ran)

Are you saying its ok to steal? after all that law has been around as far as we know civilisation has

Do you have a holiday on christmans, easter etc...? or do you say i don't want holidays because it is based on events of religious significance?

Your "massive protests" as you put it, cant be very massive (relatively speaking) if they don't hold enough weight to make it a political policy so in reality you are complaining about the minority not getting their way against a majority vote. Religion has no bearing on it not having enough weight to force a change

 

[old.Tohtori]

Do you have a holiday on christmans, easter etc...? or do you say i don't want holidays because it is based on events of religious significance?

Good point. Don't see many atheist people complaining that they get pressies, or holidays.

 

[aika]

no holidays on christmas here, i fail to see how am I forcing my lack of belief on others?

They can still live with their own beliefs, as they dont have to take a bus on a holiday, while their beliefs prevent me from taking it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

no holidays on christmas here, i fail to see how am I forcing my lack of belief on others?

They can still live with their own beliefs, as they dont have to take a bus on a holiday, while their beliefs prevent me from taking it.

Many of western cultures laws come from religion aswell, don't steal, etc. Sure it could be said that "they would've come anyway", but it's not the case here.

They have laws based on religion, we have laws based on religion, it's the way of the country and i believe many UK people are cursing out that they are changing laws to fit other peoples religions.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

"No! don't change laws to fit others!"
"No! I want to ride the bus even if it's not allowed here!"

 

[aika]

oh i see so stealing and taking a bus on saturday are the same. And I would hardly call dont steal a religious law, yes it is written in the bible, but it has nothing to do with belief or god or religion.

Also did you actually read the bible? Its a mandatory subject here, so I studied it for 12 years, I seriously dont know how people can justify many of god's or his followers acts there. Yes this is getting off-topic I know, but in the bible God has the highest kill-count by far.
Also contradicting his own laws multiple times, like the "dont kill law".
so really gj there.