The Passion of the Christ

[Stazbumpa]

Don't start that shit in here boyo. I am so fucking bored of the Israel vs Palaestine shit. They could live together but they choose not to, and it's far from all being Israel's fault.

Far fucking from it.

 

[Mofo8]

Don't start that shit in here boyo. I am so fucking bored of the Israel vs Palaestine shit. They could live together but they choose not to, and it's far from all being Israel's fault.

Far fucking from it.

And I'm fucking bored and pissed off with a country that violates international law constantly, ignores countless United Nations resolutions, denies human rights to, persecutes and oppresses people based on racial and religious grounds, but who seem to have a never ending "get-out-of-jail-free" card based on events in Europe over 60 years ago.

Tell me: When does it become legitimate for a people to fight against occupation? Only when the occupier isn't on "our" side? Never?

 

[Stazbumpa]

And I'm fucking bored and pissed off with a country that violates international law constantly, ignores countless United Nations resolutions, denies human rights to, persecutes and oppresses people based on racial and religious grounds, but who seem to have a never ending "get-out-of-jail-free" card based on events in Europe over 60 years ago.

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that the Saudi's have persecuted far more Palestinians than the Israeli's will ever have TIME to persecute, which never gets mentioned, and also the Israeli's have had to fight for their very existence against Jordan, Syria AND Egypt (nasty neighbours).
Couple that with a fuckwit named Arafat, terrorist supporter extraordinaire, and years of oppression from people in general and I think they've been positively nice to a bunch of people that like walking round with bombs strapped to them.

To be honest I don't give a shit about the Palestinians or Israeli's, but I do support Israels right to exist. If I was Israeli I'd probably do exactly the same.
Want to talk about persecution, oppression and violation of international law? Lets have a good look at some Arab countries shall we?

 

[Mofo8]

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that the Saudi's have persecuted far more Palestinians than the Israeli's will ever have TIME to persecute, which never gets mentioned, and also the Israeli's have had to fight for their very existence against Jordan, Syria AND Egypt (nasty neighbours).
Couple that with a fuckwit named Arafat, terrorist supporter extraordinaire, and years of oppression from people in general and I think they've been positively nice to a bunch of people that like walking round with bombs strapped to them.

To be honest I don't give a shit about the Palestinians or Israeli's, but I do support Israels right to exist. If I was Israeli I'd probably do exactly the same.
Want to talk about persecution, oppression and violation of international law? Lets have a good look at some Arab countries shall we?

You forgot to answer my question... 2nd paragraph of my last post, and you also forgot to mention the terrorist jews who attacked and killed British servicemen in the late 1940's. Here's another hard question: Does Israel's right to exist supercede the Palestinan's right to a homeland?

 

[Xtro]

Not met an Israeli or Palestinian yet who can skin up properly so who cares?

 

[Stazbumpa]

You forgot to answer my question... 2nd paragraph of my last post, and you also forgot to mention the terrorist jews who attacked and killed British servicemen in the late 1940's. Here's another hard question: Does Israel's right to exist supercede the Palestinan's right to a homeland?

Fair enough if they killed British soldiers then thats wrong, I believe they would've been punished for it, but its a slightly moot point given that many more Palestinian terrorists are active NOW and are blowing up civilians, not army personel.

In answer to your question, yes its perfectly legitimate for people to fight against occupation. Always has been. But if the rebels in question are dickheads, like the Taliban in Afghanistan for example, then its also ok to kick seven shades of shit out of them.

Answer to question 2: Not at all, the Palestinians have a right to exist too. But a co-existance could easily work, but the religious differences and tossers like Arafat see that it will never happen. There is plenty of land for Palestinians to live alonside Israeli's, but in fairness I doubt that they EVER wanted to live alonside Jewish people in the first place.

Anti-semetism is rife amongst the arab world and the weird thing is, historically, it was never that bad to begin with.

 

[leggy]

I thought the problem was that Isreal wouldn't recognise palestine as a separate state?. Not the co-existance of the two people.

Sharon refuses to give them what they want because he reckons they are terrorists. The palestinians carry out terror attacks because they aren't getting what they want. Vicious circle in other words.

I may have over bastardised the situation but this is my understanding of it.

 

[Vae]

There was a quote from a past Israeli Prime Minister (might have been Rabin) which I've always thought has rung true:

"There can be no peace in the middle east while they hate our children more than they love their own".

The truth is that there are Palestinian terrorist groups out there that just don't want peace. There have been times when the two sides have been close to an agreement about a palestinian homeland but then there's another suicide bomb and Israel strikes back and it all back to square 1.

 

[Stazbumpa]

Never a truer word spoken. I don't doubt that the average Palastinian just wants to get on with life and be as good as he/she can be in the current climate. But as you say, there are Muslims who will stop at nothing to wipe out the Israeli's and these terrorists don't really care about the average Palestinian anyway.

Lets face it, suicide bombers aren't exactly a tactic used by the Israeli's and if the Israeli's wanted to kick the Palestinians off every bit of territory they could do it quite easily.

Agreements could be reached, and whilst the Israeli's are occassionally guilty of cocking things up, I don't think I've ever witnessed the Palastinian authorities trying to meet them halfway.

 

[nath]

You make it sound like the Israelis, though not perfect, are generally the victims here. This is far from true. Both sides are just as guilty as each other. Sure there's not many israeli suicide bombers about but they don't need them, they've got an army with lots of weapons. The palestinians strike back in the only way they know they can. You can only push a man so far before he starts pushing back, and when he does, he'll do it any way he can. There's no better side in this conflict, both Arafat AND Sharon are not helping matters at all :- one's a terrorist and one's a war criminal. IMO they both need to fuck off before things start getting better.

 

[Uncle Sick]

Heyyyyyyyyyy!! Weren't we busy talking about a shit movie? Lets relax a little.

*can't help it*

Just as well, 'cause then they can save up all their cruelty for the people of Palestine. I've nothing against jews or Judaism, but the modern state of Israel has a lot to answer for.

Erm... you might as well say the same about Roman Catholics (like Spanish vs. 90% of South America's natives) etc.
In other words - I was talking about religious orientation, not citizenship.

A jew isn't automatically an Israeli.

 

[Mofo8]

I want to say one or two more things on the subject of Israel and the Palestinians, and then I'll get back on-topic (slightly).

The media, especially the US media, typically skews what's happening in Israel and the occupied territories. Typically you'll hear about an arab blowing himself and a handful of Israelis up. The Palestians will then be blamed by the Israeli Government/Army and the media for destroying weeks of relative calm. This happened last Christmas. What you didn't typically hear of was that in the 3 months prior to this, the Israeli army had carried out dozens of raids into Palestinian areas, killing approximately 117 Palestinians, injuring many more, and leaving thousands without shelter as houses were destroyed. The US media refers to these months of raids as a "lull in the conflict". Just 2 days before the suicide bombing 40 Israeli military vehicles (including Apache gunship) attacked a refugee camp, killing 9 and injuring at least 30.

Just Google "Qana", "Jenin", "Nablus", "Sabra" and "Chatilla", and for fun try "+sharon + war +crime"

I reckon the only way to solve the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians would be for the United Nations to get heavily involved. The Israelis typically ignore UN resolutions though, so it'd probably require a degree of forcefulness, which would have to include the United States moving to a neutral position in the conflict instead of backing Israel the whole time (see here for a list of UN resolutions vetoed by the USA from 1972-2002)

Right.... now to try and get back on topic erm... err.... um.... the film is good.... erm.... go and see it

 

[Uncle Sick]

Well, I personally don't agree with what the Israeli government is doing in Palestine myself. I also don't think that strapping a couple of pounds of C4 on gullible teenagers/religious fanatics to blow up school busses filled with Israeli school children is the way to go.

I just don't feel the need to say: "You are a Jew - bad Israeli!".
Bin Laden and co are fanatic muslims... White Power freaks and the KKK are devoted Christians... etc. I guess you catch my drift.

And Israeli terrorists killing British soldiers. Very sad.
But Germans and British killed each other by the hundreds of thousands in two World Wars.
Do you dislike me because I am German? I never touched a Brit (except some British girls when going to England with schools some years ago )...
I don't feel any hostility towards any of the ex-allies of WWII.
As a matter of fact, I live in the US with my American wife and my American kids....

I just don't like generalizing and stereotyping.

 

[Mofo8]

I never touched a Brit (except some British girls when going to England with schools some years ago )...

LOL

 

[SawTooTH]

This has all gone a bit off topic. I want to go and see the film but Im an unbeliever.

Someone pointed out to me the other day,
that in the Jewish faith the Jews are waiting for their messiah but it was fortold that they would not recognise him for who he was. Fits in nicely with the Christian religion/myth if you ask me.

I like stories that fit.

I think Peter Jackson could probably do a better job than Mel though. Another 3 Christmas films.

 

[Doh_boy]

This has all gone a bit off topic. I want to go and see the film but Im an unbeliever.

Someone pointed out to me the other day,
that in the Jewish faith the Jews are waiting for their messiah but it was fortold that they would not recognise him for who he was. Fits in nicely with the Christian religion/myth if you ask me.

I like stories that fit.

I think Peter Jackson could probably do a better job than Mel though. Another 3 Christmas films.

Well there's a running program on bbc2 about religion and they did a special on jesus and christianity. Basically they said he was either 1) Teh reel deell yo!!!!! or 2) Very clever and very well read in jewish scripture since he fullfilled LOADS of prophecies even some really obsure ones.

 

[Uncle Sick]

I think Peter Jackson could probably do a better job than Mel though. Another 3 Christmas films.

Jesus and the crew would put up one epic fight against those orcs... uhm, romans... peppering them with fish, bread (unlimited ammo cheat, mmkay?) until finally overpowered, Jesus would be nailed to the cross by the orc leader - pardon - centurion.

Not after blowing the Horn of Gond... Galilea - to alert the rest of the Fellowship of 12.

*spoiler!*
The escape attempt is unsuccessful, though.
Liv Tyler won't be playing Mary Magdalena.
*spoiler*

Oh, damn you, Mel Gibson...

 

[Ala]

I'm yet to see it. My friends said it was great. The radio movie reviewer said it was a full on gory horror flick. The Pope said it was the truest account of the final moments of Jesus he'd ever seen potrayed. Makes me wonder how old the Pope really is!

 

[dr_jo]

I've been going to an alpha course for the past few weeks, specifically to ask some of the awkward questions that people are putting forward here - these are not *my* views, but the christian view, as I have been led to believe by the minister running the course.

Originally posted by DaGaffer
Why would a God require any sacrifice, let alone that of his own son? What's the point? My head hurts...

Original sin (i.e. adam and eve and the apple) is the reason why none of us is good enough to get to heaven on our own. God sends his son to form a bridge between us and him, so that we can get to heaven.
Although God is omnipotent, he cannot do anything which is bad in any way. If he forgave sins with no payment, it would be like saying, "never mind, sins don't matter anyway", and that would be wrong. Therefore he has to have payment and punishment for the wrong doing.

The example given was that of a judge, who was trying his friend. He knew his friend was guilty, and therefore had to find him guilty. But he gave him a fine, and then in his capacity as his friend, he paid the fine for him.

Originally posted by Stazbumpa
And if it was God updating things, why haven't all God fearing types switched over to Christianity?

The jews believe that there is a saviour coming but that Jesus is not him, and they are still waiting. The Christians believe that Jesus was the saviour.


And one more issue that someone raised - before Jesus came along there was no way to get to heaven. In one way, that's true, because Jesus had not yet died, but God exists outside of time, so the fact that Jesus died at all, means that people who were around before he lived could get to heaven, so long as they believed in God, and followed the rules, and were sorry for things they did wrong.
That seems a bit like double standards to me, but there you go...


If there's anything else you want to know, just ask

 

[DaGaffer]

Although God is omnipotent, he cannot do anything which is bad in any way.

So destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, turning Lot's Wife into a pillar of salt, the trials of Job, flooding the entire world, sending plagues of locusts etc. etc. aren't deemed 'bad' then? For a "loving God", he's got a fuckin' funny way of showing it.

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh, and the whole "original sin" thing is a setup anyway! God created Adam and Eve and the Serpent. He's omnipotent - He by definition knows what's going to happen!

 

[dr_jo]

I didn't say I agreed with it. I just said it was what I understood from the meetings.

I think the arguement about individual events (like the trials of job) is that overall God was working for good, although Job couldn't see it when all the bad stuff was happening.

And I have huge problems with original sin, because I don't believe the Adam and Eve story to be literally true. And it seems to me that the whole of christianity comes back to that one issue.

 

[Damini]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3559753.stm

That tickled me. MEL GIBSONS KILLS A PRIEST!!

 

[Wij]

I didn't say I agreed with it. I just said it was what I understood from the meetings.

I think the arguement about individual events (like the trials of job) is that overall God was working for good, although Job couldn't see it when all the bad stuff was happening.

And I have huge problems with original sin, because I don't believe the Adam and Eve story to be literally true. And it seems to me that the whole of christianity comes back to that one issue.

pfft - it's just a dogy attempt to beat the 'problem of evil.' Religionists have been tying themselves in knots over that one for millennia and usually end up redifining good and evil to 'whatever God does or does not do or allow.' What a wimpy cop-out. Any God who allows innocent kids to get cancer when he could easily prevent it is NOT GOOD ! FULL-STOP !

 

[tris-]

i seen the film on saturday and i have a question that someone will probably know the answer to - who is the person that keeps showing up in the black cloak? why were they even there? etc..

 

[Mofo8]

i seen the film on saturday and i have a question that someone will probably know the answer to - who is the person that keeps showing up in the black cloak? why were they even there? etc..

Satan?

 

[Bullitt]

Bit hot in here anyone want a fuckin cookie?

On a side note we got a couple of jehova's witness' (wtf did they witness, they weren't even a twinkle in their great great great great great great etc grandaddy's sexual eye back then) knocking the other day and we took the leaflet. They asked us if we liked anything we saw in the picture (was of a 'paradise' etc) and it's just absurd, the lions were sitting happily with the antelope and children were feeding bears jam sandwiches. I mean it's nature for the lion to eat the antelope...and bear to eat the child and they're saying its all wrong :touch:

 

[SawTooTH]

Satan?

Or evil in one form or another. Notice how Mel shoots the devil mingling with the Jewish mob baying for Jesus to be killed. Inciting religeous hatred...never!

 

[Mofo8]

Or evil in one form or another. Notice how Mel shoots the devil mingling with the Jewish mob baying for Jesus to be killed. Inciting religeous hatred...never!

If you go the official website, and click on the cast list you get "Satan - Rosalinda Celentano"

 

[tris-]

i thought it was satan but i just wanted to know if someone else thought the same thing