The Mordred Problem - an interesting article.

[Mkilbride]

http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-mordred-problem/


So while yes, this is a few years old, I was browsing a random website and saw it, caught my eye. I never read it.

The Mordred Problem

So, a more serious look at Darkfall’s incipient release.
Most of the traffic on the boards and blogs recently seems to be doomcasting Darkfall pretty harshly. It’s not a AAA MMO, its ruleset is ridiculously hardcore, and it is doing its level best to minimize the number of people that actually *can* log in (no NA release, limited number of boxes sold, etc).
I actually disagree. I think it will have a groundswell of excitement, some people will be pumped about “a hardcore game not for carebears!!1!”, and we’ll see some ridiculous eBay auctions of Darkfall boxes.
For three months. Then… it will collapse upon itself.
Why this curve? Because every PvP-centric MMO released to date has seen this. Even PvP-specific servers, released to great fanfare with their users, see this curve. And the reason is pretty simple – because people enjoy hardcore PvP in the abstract. Or, to put another way, many more people believe they are ‘hardc0re’ than actually are. And they dislike being proved wrong pretty powerfully.
The best example of this in my experience were the free-for-all PvP servers in Dark Age of Camelot. They were eagerly anticipated. When the first one, “Mordred”, came out, it was the most popular server in the game. A second PvP server, “Andred”, was quickly pressed into service, which also was popular.
Then… they weren’t. Andred in particular became a ghost town and after a decent interval was merged back into Mordred. Mordred still exists, but only has a vestigal population at best.
Of course, if you talk to the players themselves, there were other issues. PvP in DAOC was an afterthought, levelling was too difficult, there were too many exploits, there were bugs, etc. etc. Much as in Shadowbane, one of the most highly anticipated MMOs ever judging from message board buzz – bugs, bad design, exploits, etc. etc.
All of which is true. But they are not unique to PvP servers, or PvP games. What *is* unique is the PvP ruleset – the sense of the hardcore. The Mordred problem is simply that a great majority of the people who believe they are hardcore are not, and after being violently disabused of the notion, will leave.
Thus, the curve. Servers that will be massively overpopulated one month, ghost towns the next.
Perhaps Darkfall’s developers are well aware of the Mordred problem, and are enforcing a rigid scarcity of availability to try to counter this. Personally I’m dubious of this, based on the PR coming from some of their spokespersons that would have made Todd Coleman in a GOD stripper booth blush. But in the end, it will definitely work in their favor. If they can ride that curve, they may find the true level of their niche.
And those people outside the niche will complain about bugs. And poor design. And poor polish. And a community of rabid weasels. And and and. All of which will probably be true. But very few will admit to a Mordred problem. And addressing that problem will be a key dilemma for any PvP-centric game.

tldr - People say they want hardcore PVP, but really don't.

 

[Hawkwind]

The issue with DAOC PVP Servers were clear for me personally. It was a complete waste of time and not worth the effort. Did not do it when it first started and when I did try it out leveling was a complete nightmare. Constant grief play when you tried to visit towns and train up. it was a total waste of effort. Unless you were in one of the big guilds and had support you were f*cked!

 

[Everz]

The issue with DAOC PVP Servers were clear for me personally. It was a complete waste of time and not worth the effort. Did not do it when it first started and when I did try it out leveling was a complete nightmare. Constant grief play when you tried to visit towns and train up. it was a total waste of effort. Unless you were in one of the big guilds and had support you were f*cked!

Really wasn't the case. It was fun and challenging, that was the whole idea behind it, it was meant to be the hardest form of DAoC possible.

Without being critical I guess you went to the most popular leveling spots that you knew from blue servers and expecting to xp happily? You then expected to wander around any major hub for action and again, expected to be left alone to level? That wasn't the PvP game, if you went to Barrows then expect to get ganked because it's a popular area, the idea of leveling peacefully on Mordred/Camlann involved engaging your brain and thinking outside of the usual areas. It's ironic that I managed to level my Shaman pretty easily in Raumarik at the Wynerns, or deep in Cursed Forest.. because they weren't popular places to go.

The grief when you got to a town was simple, the PvP server had a 24 hour worth timer this meant that someone was only worth RPs every 24 hours. So if I killed you, for the next 24 hours you would appear as not worth to me. This helped create a mentality of killing anything that conned to you, and added a sense of danger that you should expect should you go to a major city (not camelot/jord/tnn). The best thing you could do was learn when you began to con to 50s (36 iirc?) and then go into hiding, avoid the danger areas and level up. It was challenging but it also made some good fun and the reward of finally getting to 50 and being able to drop those who ganked you so bad was satisfying.

Another mystery is your training in towns, you could /release city and go to your home city and train safely their without getting ganked, again it seems a case of 'brain not engaged' rather than an error with the server.

As the guild comment, I slightly agree in terms of the relic system that was in place. Sin Vada on Mordred for example were a pain as they held the biggest numbers and six relics, but other then that, a small sized guild could easily accomplish just as much on Mordred/Camlann as a large sized guild. It was just how you played the game to your advantage, if you knew big numbers would hunt you down, then don't do the obvious thing. It's no surprise that my Shaman's first artifact were ridiculously bad because going for the Cloudsong/GoV route of the more popular artifacts would have meant I'd be easily killed and hunted down. It's a compromise that was made but again, it added to the danger and challenge of the server.

It was a great community on all three PvP servers (though I seldom played Andred much) and was the most enjoyable form of the game to me. Hopefully, CU has a PvP server to repeat the experience as nothing has come close since.

 

[~Latency~]

never really considered pvp server to be 'hardcore' at all, it was just a lot more fun (imo) with the added risk and the 8v8 scene was actually really good on camlann.. you could roll a /20 character, pvp to level 25-30 then easily meet people and level up somewhere across the three realms without any hassle

 

[Hawkwind]

If it was 1 v 1 in the towns it would have been OK but it was generally 3+ v soloers and they would grief kill constantly until you logged. I think I got to about level 24 before giving up totally, so not like I did not give it a try. I was in a guild albeit small and due to the time difference I was generally solo. I tried several XP zones for those levels Hills, Forest, SI etc. If towns were safe zones it would have been a better experience for me. Whilst I don't mind a challenge getting constantly ganked by the same groups was a time sink I was not willing to accept.

/release city did work but to do it every level and take the horse rides back to the xp zones zones was just another reason that made it a pain.

Horses for courses, we all like different parts of the game. If we all liked the sames thing games would be very boring indeed

 

[rynnor]

Whatever the reasons those servers did follow the massive dropoff in numbers outlined above - personally I hope the CU developers drop PvP servers into the 'nice to have someday' pile - I'm more interested in Tri Realm RvR.

 

[Raven]

You could barely leave the starter zones before getting ganked by level 50s, the argument that you could "just go somewhere else" was daft, you couldn't go somewhere else because you had just started, if you wanted to train, then tough. That wasn't hardcore, just a waste of time, perhaps the dickless wonders who passed their time killing level 7s (Or whatever it was) thought they were hardcore...

 

[Jairon Kalach]

That's the heart of the problem... Unless it is designed in, that type of hardcore PvP will always be swarmed with folks who think the highest form of the art is to "own n00bz," instead of fighting increasingly more challenging fights. There's a subtle difference between providing the thrill of constant danger, and enabling bullies.

 

[~Latency~]

You could barely leave the starter zones before getting ganked by level 50s, the argument that you could "just go somewhere else" was daft, you couldn't go somewhere else because you had just started, if you wanted to train, then tough. That wasn't hardcore, just a waste of time, perhaps the dickless wonders who passed their time killing level 7s (Or whatever it was) thought they were hardcore...

spawn, die, release city? it was defo dependent on your individual tastes, i was never interested in crafting or waiting around and thought that once you got past being annoyed by the occasional grumpy higher lvl that killed you, it was good funnn

 

[Tuthmes]

Release city. Not sure when that command was added, but lets just say it has always bin there. What exactly where you gonne do in the city, besides walking out of it to get ganked over and over again? I think we once got to a point of lvl'ing with a bunch of other people. Just getting together was a major issue. I recall finally getting to the xp spot, just to get ganked within 5 mins later by some lvl 50 set group (when we where lvl 20).

/Release, people all over the place again and its quittes. Rightly so.

 

[Overdriven]

Amount of people in here who obviously never got past level 10 is funny. I had a dozen 50s on Camlann (A majority leveled from 1, some from /level) and I loved most moments of it. Everz actually posted the whole argument I'd make. When I first started I found it odd, but I just moved my leveling spots to different locations and time flew by. If you knew where not to go, you'd be fine. Hell, when you start hitting the 40 mark and start fighting 50s back it was great.

EDIT: I remember a L50 BD (Bahuhuhuhuhuhu or something like that) who use to chain greys, wasn't till people figured out where his bot was exploit-hidden that people got him down. People like that were twats, but when you knew where they hid their toys, it was easier... Park bot, kill bot, dual-perf BD, kill BD etc.

 

[Nelex]

Lol hey Overdriven how is it hanging

Amount of people in here who obviously never got past level 10 is funny. I had a dozen 50s on Camlann (A majority leveled from 1, some from /level) and I loved most moments of it. Everz actually posted the whole argument I'd make. When I first started I found it odd, but I just moved my leveling spots to different locations and time flew by. If you knew where not to go, you'd be fine. Hell, when you start hitting the 40 mark and start fighting 50s back it was great.

EDIT: I remember a L50 BD (Bahuhuhuhuhuhu or something like that) who use to chain greys, wasn't till people figured out where his bot was exploit-hidden that people got him down. People like that were twats, but when you knew where they hid their toys, it was easier... Park bot, kill bot, dual-perf BD, kill BD etc.

 

[Xrystofer]

I liked the Concept of the PvP type server, Sadly I never got the chance to play seriously.
I remember being in the Guild ''Police'' a Lowbie level Guild that would invite anyone and form 2-3 FGs to kill 50s.... it was hilarious

 

[Overdriven]

Lol hey Overdriven how is it hanging

Oh wow. Now there's a name I've not seen since the live days, that brings back memories. Couldn't even tell you how things have been its been that long, how about you?

 

[CorNokZ]

It is pretty simple regarding the PvP server. Either you were a huge fan of the playstyle or, as me, hated it and found the community to be horrible. I level'd solo to 40~ish in midgard SI, with no buffs or anything else. I found the community terrible and elitist. Went to jordheim, tnn, Camelot and asked in region for groups. If I found people to level with, they invited me, told me to port some where deserted, killed me and /laugh'd at me. Made me think "what am I doing on this server, when I already have great friends back on Excalibur?". I met a lot of grief play and not a lot of friendly souls. Others might have been lucky running into the right people, but that wasn't the case for me.

Either you loved it or you didn't. I don't think a lot of people have that "Meh, t'was alright I guess" feeling about the pvp server

 

[Nelex]

Oh wow. Now there's a name I've not seen since the live days, that brings back memories. Couldn't even tell you how things have been its been that long, how about you?

I have been great, been doing some LoL and hiding in plain sight :-P waiting for the ressurrection of Jacobs and Coo Coo with him :-P Is that BD still limping around? :-D

 

[Everz]

I agree it was like marmite. I enjoyed the griefing aspect, it's how I made most of my Camlann friends. Sure it was annoying at times, but getting one over people by using an alt to get into a ML raid and then rocking up your fg to kill them all was brilliant.

It made a dog-eat-dog world and that was what I found fun. Oh, and again. You go to a major city and expect not to ganked, am I the only one who sees the fatal flaw in this. There were numerous places to go to train that avoided the hassle! I seldom got ganked when training, the only time would be /leveling something and even then I expected a quick /release city.

 

[Cadelin]

It was a great community on all three PvP servers (though I seldom played Andred much) and was the most enjoyable form of the game to me. Hopefully, CU has a PvP server to repeat the experience as nothing has come close since.

Lets start with this comment. If it was a great community why did it die out so quickly? The simple truth is the community on the regular servers was better.

Without being critical I guess you went to the most popular leveling spots that you knew from blue servers and expecting to xp happily? You then expected to wander around any major hub for action and again, expected to be left alone to level? That wasn't the PvP game, if you went to Barrows then expect to get ganked because it's a popular area, the idea of leveling peacefully on Mordred/Camlann involved engaging your brain and thinking outside of the usual areas. It's ironic that I managed to level my Shaman pretty easily in Raumarik at the Wynerns, or deep in Cursed Forest.. because they weren't popular places to go.

After dying once, I quickly realised that you needed to go to less popular spots. In the end I found the best thing to do was to level at times when fewer people were around. Basically the best tactic was the complete opposite of what you assume from a PvP MMO. As you make the game more "hardcore" and increase the penalty from dying, people will take fewer risks. This means they will only pick fights they know they will win.

The grief when you got to a town was simple, the PvP server had a 24 hour worth timer this meant that someone was only worth RPs every 24 hours. So if I killed you, for the next 24 hours you would appear as not worth to me. This helped create a mentality of killing anything that conned to you, and added a sense of danger that you should expect should you go to a major city (not camelot/jord/tnn). The best thing you could do was learn when you began to con to 50s (36 iirc?) and then go into hiding, avoid the danger areas and level up. It was challenging but it also made some good fun and the reward of finally getting to 50 and being able to drop those who ganked you so bad was satisfying.

You are basically admitting it was shit to get ganked and the you didn't enjoy leveling. The fun came when you hit 50. Once you were 50 it might have been more fun but only because there was a larger choice of easy targets.

As the guild comment, I slightly agree in terms of the relic system that was in place. Sin Vada on Mordred for example were a pain as they held the biggest numbers and six relics, but other then that, a small sized guild could easily accomplish just as much on Mordred/Camlann as a large sized guild. It was just how you played the game to your advantage, if you knew big numbers would hunt you down, then don't do the obvious thing. It's no surprise that my Shaman's first artifact were ridiculously bad because going for the Cloudsong/GoV route of the more popular artifacts would have meant I'd be easily killed and hunted down. It's a compromise that was made but again, it added to the danger and challenge of the server.

I don't think it helped that the PvP ruleset was very much an after thought. Some things didn't translate well. Arti's and some quests were a pain. Relics and the RvR zones didn't work that well either.

 

[Everz]

Lets start with this comment. If it was a great community why did it die out so quickly? The simple truth is the community on the regular servers was better.

Platinum bug firstly. Ignored by Mythic for years secondly. Only one server thirdly.

Ywain has had 30+ to draw it's 2000 remaining players from, including Mordred/Camlann.

After dying once, I quickly realised that you needed to go to less popular spots. In the end I found the best thing to do was to level at times when fewer people were around. Basically the best tactic was the complete opposite of what you assume from a PvP MMO. As you make the game more "hardcore" and increase the penalty from dying, people will take fewer risks. This means they will only pick fights they know they will win.

So you engaged your brain and found a solution to your problem? It was DAoC, it was never going to a copy of UO or AC but more the hardest version of DAoC that was possible. The 24 worth timer forced people to take risks in fights, that was the counteract to this problem and it worked extremely well to keep the 'action' going.

You are basically admitting it was shit to get ganked and the you didn't enjoy leveling. The fun came when you hit 50. Once you were 50 it might have been more fun but only because there was a larger choice of easy targets.

Where did you pick that up from? Go into hiding? By that I indicated don't be a retard and head to any highly populated area and not expect to an instant target to 50s, as shock horror, you'll get killed. The bonus was that you could on the off chance kill that 50 depending on your class and the sense of danger was fun. Of course it was more fun at 50, DAoC has always been this way, what a ridiculous statement to make. 50 was more fun because you were on the same footing as those who used to gank you, the 'revenge' of being able to dish it out on an equal footing of course was easier, and without the leveling constraints the amount of available target lit up. It's a really odd argument, it's similiar to you saying 'well at 48 I was dying in RvR to 50s, and that sucks, why can't everyone be 48 like me!'.

I don't think it helped that the PvP ruleset was very much an after thought. Some things didn't translate well. Arti's and some quests were a pain. Relics and the RvR zones didn't work that well either.

In OF the relic system wasn't too bad but yes I agree, it was Mythic redheaded stepchild. ToA worked extremely well I found as it generated several focal points and made some memorable times for me. RvR zones worked some what ok, I'd have preferred the ability to control a town but controlling and defending your own keep was an extremely fun experience, especially for the Guild vs Guild aspect that helped PvP thrive. Catacombs was a disaster, but that was obvious.

Overall, there were masses of bugs on PvP, some terrible decisions by both Mythic and GoA lead to the demise of the server. Still, it was extremely fun and I feel sorry for those that didn't get to experience it, as I'm sure those who stuck it out would agree that it opened up a lot of doors that were closed on the RvR servers. It's still my preferred server of choice and the only thing that would lure me to CU would be a remake of a PvP ruleset.

 

[Mkilbride]

Man, did this article start a debate or what.

 

[BloodOmen]

It is pretty simple regarding the PvP server. Either you were a huge fan of the playstyle or, as me, hated it and found the community to be horrible. I level'd solo to 40~ish in midgard SI, with no buffs or anything else. I found the community terrible and elitist. Went to jordheim, tnn, Camelot and asked in region for groups. If I found people to level with, they invited me, told me to port some where deserted, killed me and /laugh'd at me. Made me think "what am I doing on this server, when I already have great friends back on Excalibur?". I met a lot of grief play and not a lot of friendly souls. Others might have been lucky running into the right people, but that wasn't the case for me.

Either you loved it or you didn't. I don't think a lot of people have that "Meh, t'was alright I guess" feeling about the pvp server

Agree more or less I had 50's on Camlann back in the day and it was fun being able to fight 50's where ever I wanted to, I didn't really see the point in ganking low levels just because you could doesn't mean you should, I guess thats what made me different from the twats you generally found on Camlann, nobs that basically did nothing but grief lowbies all day long and then wonder why the servers died out.

People shouldn't kid themselves, Camlann and Mordred died because the community was toxic/full of total shit heads, no other reason beyond that and I say that as an ex-camlann player.

 

[Xandax]

An issue is that PvP means different things to different people.

I enjoy PvP, but I don't enjoy 'grief' - aka I enjoy groups of players engaging other players who stand a chance to fight back (and who're willing to fight back) and fighting over objectives.
I don't enjoy 3 players repeat-killing the lowbie simply because they can type fight. That's not PvP to me, because it might as well be a randomly spawned invulnerable PvE boss mob spawned on top of the one.

DAoC was already a PvP game and therefore a big part of the appeal to the 'dread servers where for the latter type of players and such groupings of players will eventually implode as they run out of targets as the former go back to the type of PvP they enjoy.
It has very little to do with actually being 'hardcore' but which playing style one prefer. Hardcore in that termonology is much more just a self-induced pad on the shoulders to validate ones preferred playing-style by claiming it is hardcore. That term then gives 'meaning' to ones time spend enjoying killing people who can't fight back ("It's a hardcore server, they had it coming" type argument)

Dread servers were an interesting concept, but it was an afterthought to the original DAoC and that meant the game was really not build to support it either.

 

[Everz]

Agree more or less I had 50's on Camlann back in the day and it was fun being able to fight 50's where ever I wanted to, I didn't really see the point in ganking low levels just because you could doesn't mean you should, I guess thats what made me different from the twats you generally found on Camlann, nobs that basically did nothing but grief lowbies all day long and then wonder why the servers died out.

People shouldn't kid themselves, Camlann and Mordred died because the community was toxic/full of total shit heads, no other reason beyond that and I say that as an ex-camlann player.

Yeah, lets forget glaring bugs, total ignoration by Mythic and GoA mass bans. It was all those naughty mean players fault that the server died.

Did you even play the server? It's irritable that you talk like you never touched the server by stating that it was 'nothing but ganking lowbies'. Just ignore all the 8v8, zergs, guild v guild, keeps, small man, solos etc.. it was all about lowbies ganking!

 

[BloodOmen]

Yeah, lets forget glaring bugs, total ignoration by Mythic and GoA mass bans. It was all those naughty mean players fault that the server died.

Did you even play the server? It's irritable that you talk like you never touched the server by stating that it was 'nothing but ganking lowbies'. Just ignore all the 8v8, zergs, guild v guild, keeps, small man, solos etc.. it was all about lowbies ganking!

Off the defensive horse Everz, even without those problems it still doesn't change the fact that the community basically destroyed the server overall, pvp servers in daoc have had 2 chances and failed twice, can't blame GOA for Mordreds death and you cannot blame Mythic for Camlanns, just accept what really killed them and stop trying to make excuses for their demise.

As for the lowbie ganking I didn't say it was nothing but lowbie ganking, I simply said I didn't really see the point in ganking low levels. There were alot of people that did it tho and it certainly didn't help with the servers popularity, especially when you would kill the gankers and all of a sudden their entire guild would show up to slap you about (happened once when I twatted someone from War Legend on Camlann, within 10 minutes 2fg of them showed up and basically sat and killed everyone in the area until everyone pretty much went somewhere else)

 

[BloodOmen]

Racial slurs aren't welcome here Mkilbride, joke or not its completely unrelated to the thread - consider this a warning.

 

[Himse]

Racial slurs aren't welcome here Mkilbride, joke or not its completely unrelated to the thread - consider this a warning.

GG on your first day of being a nazi mod!!1

 

[BloodOmen]

GG on your first day of being a nazi mod!!1

That hurts Himse

 

[Zubei]

A full PvP server in CU would be a nightmare for Crafters.

 

[Cadelin]

Platinum bug firstly. Ignored by Mythic for years secondly. Only one server thirdly.

Ywain has had 30+ to draw it's 2000 remaining players from, including Mordred/Camlann.

Mordred/Camlann were dead way before Ywain was in existence. I know Camlann had been dead for years before Avalon (the largest German server) needed to be merged. The bugs were not dealt with because so few people were playing the server.

So you engaged your brain and found a solution to your problem? It was DAoC, it was never going to a copy of UO or AC but more the hardest version of DAoC that was possible. The 24 worth timer forced people to take risks in fights, that was the counteract to this problem and it worked extremely well to keep the 'action' going.

Yes, I engaged my brain, found the solution to playing on a PvP server was to avoid PvP and then gave up. I played the Camlann when there was nothing to do on the normal servers.

Where did you pick that up from? Go into hiding? By that I indicated don't be a retard and head to any highly populated area and not expect to an instant target to 50s, as shock horror, you'll get killed. The bonus was that you could on the off chance kill that 50 depending on your class and the sense of danger was fun. Of course it was more fun at 50, DAoC has always been this way, what a ridiculous statement to make. 50 was more fun because you were on the same footing as those who used to gank you, the 'revenge' of being able to dish it out on an equal footing of course was easier, and without the leveling constraints the amount of available target lit up. It's a really odd argument, it's similiar to you saying 'well at 48 I was dying in RvR to 50s, and that sucks, why can't everyone be 48 like me!'.

You missed the point I was trying to make.
Leveling on the PvP server was shit. On a normal server it could be slow and tedious at times but on the PvP server you had the added disadvantages that it was harder to form groups, you needed to play at off peak times and you had to avoid the good leveling spots. On a normal server if you wanted danger while you leveled you could always go DF or to the Frontiers. Trying to argue that there was anything good about the leveling on the PvP servers is silly.

Now once you got to 50 you could argue that there were more potential options. But it would appear most people just spent their time looking for easy targets to gank and that's why it died.

 

[old.Osy]

EVE is true PvP. Camelot wasn't designed for PvP, but for RvR. The game mechanic doesn't support PvP, it was conceived as a large scale RvR scene.

You can do succesfull PvP in Daoc if people are sensible about it, and follow a set of unwritten rules. Otherwise it's just a gank fest.