Gumbo
It's my birthday today!
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Do you mean the Enstone Renault F1 team? or Group Lotus at Hethel. Also a source please. This is important to me for a few reasons...
Formula 1 The F1 jibber jabber thread.
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Do you mean the Enstone Renault F1 team? or Group Lotus at Hethel. Also a source please. This is important to me for a few reasons...
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The F1 team.
Source is my brother in law who works for them. Not the first time it has happened. However this time a nice big sponsorship deal has fallen through.
Chilly
Balls of steel
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Lucky? Broke, more like it, now.You're a lucky cunt Chilly
Interesting about Lotus, hope they get it sorted. Also in the headlines, Brawn vs Merc? Alonso not at first test ?
Tuthmes
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<clears throat>
I summon upon me the demons of the free internet that reside here in the depts of this shithole (we respectfully call Freddyshouse),
Freddyshouse!
Freddyshouse!!
Freddyshouse!!!!
I want to see F1 on the web!
<waves fist, points at pm>
I summon upon me the demons of the free internet that reside here in the depts of this shithole (we respectfully call Freddyshouse),
Freddyshouse!
Freddyshouse!!
Freddyshouse!!!!
I want to see F1 on the web!
<waves fist, points at pm>
I don't think I've ever seen such a tense podium room. Vettel pulled a dickmove but he is a racer, Rosberg obviously has more self-control. It was nice of Lewis to acknowledge that it should've been Nico up there and not him.
And lol Lewis for "doing a Jenson" but how useful those extra few seconds could've been.
And lol Lewis for "doing a Jenson" but how useful those extra few seconds could've been.
ECA
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Vettel needs to remember how many times Webber has defended him during championship races/endings and return the favour, he acted like a spoilt child.
If I were were Webber I would have just smashed him and said "I wasn't expecting him to be there, we were under team orders to maintain position - sorry mate".
Vettel showed no respect for his team leaders decision, nor his team mate.
If I were were Webber I would have just smashed him and said "I wasn't expecting him to be there, we were under team orders to maintain position - sorry mate".
Vettel showed no respect for his team leaders decision, nor his team mate.
Yup it's like Horner said, the team was thinking about 43 points and Vettel was thinking about 25. What are they going to do about it though? Probably a whole lot of nothing, so it will doubtless happen again if a similar situation arises.
ECA
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Don't forget, the team let Vettel pit first to get him out of the stops ahead of Hamilton - despite Webber being ahead - they compromised his race there, to ensure the 1-2 for the team - if they gave Webber the priority the race leader is almost always given Vettel would have come out behind Hamham and the race for him would have been fucked.
He acted like a total child.
He acted like a total child.
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Vettel was a twat. I keep seeing arguments like "well, he's a racer" and "team orders are bollocks".
True and true, but you can't have it both ways. Webber *was faster than Vettel by a clear half second* at the time the "multi 21" order was given (to save fuel/tyres). That is a significant advantage. Vettel, as admitted, in a "red mist" chose to carry on regardless. The plan, as we the Public are at least led to believe was for Webber to win that race with Vettel maintaining the gap. Vettel went back on that, effectively cheating Mark from a deserved and controlled win.
It's hardly a surprise that Mark is fuming and Seb has his tail between his legs, and why Horner wants his blood.
If RB wanted to swap positions they could have orchestrated that easily with the pitstops and did not do so.
Good to see that similar issues with the Mercedes guys were averted. Rosberg was given clear orders to follow Hamilton's lead in saving fuel and although as a racer, upset about it, followed orders. Orders given by no less than Ross Brawn who's tactical calls made Ferrari what they are became. Hamilton was humble on the podium and said it should belong to Rosberg who in his own words, drove a better and more controlled race. But both are team players and easily accepted Ross's wishes. It paid off really, neither would have caught up with the RB's and if they did, would have ran out of fuel doing so. Positions held well, and there's no loss of respect between the two guys as a result. I enjoyed the few laps of changing positions on the two (oddly placed) DRS zones.
Force India's pitstop gear might need looking at!
Hamilton's first pitstop was amusing, but at least all involved parties had a laugh about it afterwards! That's 6 seconds though - that could have been enough to get Hamilton another step, or indeed two, up that podium. Ah well, mistakes get made.
Also worth noting that Bianchi finished 60 seconds ahead of Chilton. Could be good things happening for him in the future. Replacement for Massa, perhaps?
True and true, but you can't have it both ways. Webber *was faster than Vettel by a clear half second* at the time the "multi 21" order was given (to save fuel/tyres). That is a significant advantage. Vettel, as admitted, in a "red mist" chose to carry on regardless. The plan, as we the Public are at least led to believe was for Webber to win that race with Vettel maintaining the gap. Vettel went back on that, effectively cheating Mark from a deserved and controlled win.
It's hardly a surprise that Mark is fuming and Seb has his tail between his legs, and why Horner wants his blood.
If RB wanted to swap positions they could have orchestrated that easily with the pitstops and did not do so.
Good to see that similar issues with the Mercedes guys were averted. Rosberg was given clear orders to follow Hamilton's lead in saving fuel and although as a racer, upset about it, followed orders. Orders given by no less than Ross Brawn who's tactical calls made Ferrari what they are became. Hamilton was humble on the podium and said it should belong to Rosberg who in his own words, drove a better and more controlled race. But both are team players and easily accepted Ross's wishes. It paid off really, neither would have caught up with the RB's and if they did, would have ran out of fuel doing so. Positions held well, and there's no loss of respect between the two guys as a result. I enjoyed the few laps of changing positions on the two (oddly placed) DRS zones.
Force India's pitstop gear might need looking at!
Hamilton's first pitstop was amusing, but at least all involved parties had a laugh about it afterwards! That's 6 seconds though - that could have been enough to get Hamilton another step, or indeed two, up that podium. Ah well, mistakes get made.
Also worth noting that Bianchi finished 60 seconds ahead of Chilton. Could be good things happening for him in the future. Replacement for Massa, perhaps?
ECA
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Bianchi finishing ahead of chilton isnt a surprise. He has strongly finished in most of his pref1 career series, also winning his formula renault and gp3 series.
Max chilton on the other hand is a jobber who's only there because of his fathers racing connections and money. He has had no results in his career path that indicate he'd ever do anything in an F1 car other than solidly finish at the back of the grid.
Max chilton on the other hand is a jobber who's only there because of his fathers racing connections and money. He has had no results in his career path that indicate he'd ever do anything in an F1 car other than solidly finish at the back of the grid.
Chilly
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It's quite simple really.
Red Bull, as a team, want to win the constructors and if possible the drivers champs. If you find yourself in a good position with your drivers 1-2 you can instruct them to ease up and not compete, saving fuel, tyres and, crucially, engine. Saving engine is a long term benefit and means their expected points return for the whole season is increased. There's also the matter of sparring drivers being significantly more likely to crash or spin or otherwise fuck up compared to steady state, safe drivers with no concern for their position. Red Bull ordered their drivers to maintain position for all of the above reasons and one of them acted like a fucking retard to grab points for himself and sacrificing long term success for him and his team by not taking advantage of the position they found themselves in. F1 is increasingly tight, so leaving an edge, no matter how slim, on the table, is insane.
DaGaffer
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Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel should be suspended - John Watson
Nice idea, and probably the most effective punishment, but as *if* they would do that and throw away probably 15+ points in the constructors championship.
Nice idea, and probably the most effective punishment, but as *if* they would do that and throw away probably 15+ points in the constructors championship.
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DaGaffer
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Team orders have been a feature of F1 since the very beginning of the Constructor's Championship. They've gone from covert, to overt and back again. The difference now is that the teams have a fixed pool of resources (engines, gearboxes, tyres etc.) for the season, so they the race engineers can't just think about the race itself, they have to think about the knock-on effects (and actually as a fan I quite enjoy that chess-like aspect of it - it certainly hasn't harmed the racing overall), and Vettel just stuck two fingers up to that; which, at the fag end of the season, you could kind of forgive, but in race 2? He was basically saying to the team "I'm more more important than any of you cunts and if you don't like it Ferrari have a big fat cheque waiting for me. Which I'll probably take anyway".
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The trouble is whilst it's a team sport, this is going to happen. The only reason it's a problem here, is because Christian Horner is not man enough to handle the situation. He gave Vettel a "telling off" and only muttered "that was silly" over the radio to him. It wasn't a surprise clearly but he needs to show he has some balls.
Brawn is a different kettle of fish - he tells you to jump, you fucking jump. Horner has half the ability of Brawn and this is why it has escalated like this, and nothing more.
As long as it's a team sport, and sponsors pay a lot of money to see their cars race, even more if they win and stay running (especially engine manufacturers). It's a balancing act between the drivers, the racing and the cars to maximise the potential - *primarily for monetary reasons*. It just so happens that when the wins happen, the money rolls in faster in very much a laymans terms, so they do sort of go hand in hand. Without this symbiance F1 wouldn't be anywhere near like it is now let alone in the 80s because the money for it wouldn't exist.
The problem therefore can only be put to Horner and Vettel. Vettel is a fucking child and Horner can't manage his team quite that well enough. Just imagine what it'd have been like if Red Bull had caved into Ecclestone's wishes and took on Hamilton. Horner's managing of those two would have been hilarious.
Brawn is a different kettle of fish - he tells you to jump, you fucking jump. Horner has half the ability of Brawn and this is why it has escalated like this, and nothing more.
As long as it's a team sport, and sponsors pay a lot of money to see their cars race, even more if they win and stay running (especially engine manufacturers). It's a balancing act between the drivers, the racing and the cars to maximise the potential - *primarily for monetary reasons*. It just so happens that when the wins happen, the money rolls in faster in very much a laymans terms, so they do sort of go hand in hand. Without this symbiance F1 wouldn't be anywhere near like it is now let alone in the 80s because the money for it wouldn't exist.
The problem therefore can only be put to Horner and Vettel. Vettel is a fucking child and Horner can't manage his team quite that well enough. Just imagine what it'd have been like if Red Bull had caved into Ecclestone's wishes and took on Hamilton. Horner's managing of those two would have been hilarious.
I agree with that; there was a totally different level of authority between the two principals' radio messages. Horner was practically pleading with Vettel to stop attacking (he said "come on Seb, this is silly" before Vettel overtook) and Brawn was *telling* Rosberg not to pass.
Madmaxx
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Like I said, the trouble isn't about team orders specifically. It's about BOTH members of a team, or "Colleagues" following the same "rules" set by their employer. The car, it's sponsors and the engine driving it as as important to the running of Formula 1 as the person driving it.
The majority would probably like team orders to be abolished entirely but it just wouldn't work in this day and age no matter what we'd like. Therefore the understanding of them and their use needs to change.
