Motoring The F1 Debate of the moment

[Ceixah]

Jenson/Hamilton?

Alot of people keep saying how Jenson has only won from luck etc, but from my experience you make your own luck right?

And if you dont believe that and think Jenson is really luck etc and hamilton isn't lets take ourselves back to the year hamilton won the title and timo glock conveniently pulled over on the last lap with a "failure"

But basically i've been a button fan for years and years, and i've tried my best to like hamilton but his arrogance is just ridiculous, spoilt little rich kid thrown into the best car in his first season, most undeserving champion since jacques villeneuve!!


discuss!!!

 

[old.Tohtori]

F1 isn't solely on the driver, also on the team, team leader, money invested in the car and mechanical failure.

Everyone needs some luck on top of a top team to win, less luck ofcourse when team works at 100%, but still needs it.

Saying he's succesful on luck alone is ofcourse wrong, because otherwise the team on top would be different every year(which isn't the case).

So ni conclusion? Not luck alone, but the driver alone isn't to be congratulated these days on victories.

 

[Ceixah]

Ofcourse not I always say that f1 these days it 80% car 10% driver 10% team strategy,

however the point im getting at is there is alot of comparisons going on currently between the two, not its safe to say they're more or less in the same car, jenson's with a team he's not familiar with as his former race engineer stayed with brawn(mercedes)

Personally I think the best all round driver on the paddock is alonso and has been for some years,

however compariny button and hamilton i lean toward button everytime as he has a better attitude, has suffered in a bad team for years and is definately a lovable personality, where as hamilton is just an ass

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, i usually throw personalities of competitors out the window and just measure them by achievements.

I haven't followed the F1 in a while, but if button is in the lead, he's better.

Only way to really compare, would be to stick them in identical cars with same team and have a few 1 on races

 

[Ceixah]

Surely you can remember buttons debut season then? when even schumacher was praising him as an upcomer, he made a few big mistakes tho (williams) etc etc,

such a shame he put all his faith into BAR/Honda, who gave him the best of the rest car for 1 season and then was all downhill from there until brawn was formed!

forgetting 1 on 1 races tho, just put hamilton and button in a cage and fight to the death! now that i'd pay to watch

 

[Tuthmes]

most undeserving champion since jacques villeneuve!!!

I lol'd. He whas prolly the purest racer on the grid back in those days.

 

[Corran]

But basically i've been a button fan for years and years, and i've tried my best to like hamilton but his arrogance is just ridiculous, spoilt little rich kid thrown into the best car in his first season, most undeserving champion since jacques villeneuve!!

Ok. I will start here.

Hamilton is actually a real stand up guy if you meet him. He does not come across as arrogant and spoilt and is more then happy to chat to people.

Had a nice little chat with him when I met him and couldnt have been nicer. Also if you on the campsites at Silverstone, you will see hamilton come around on a scooter before the race and stop to talk to people that are there. No exactly something a spoilt rich kid would do.

Also, remember Hamilton actually grew up with nothing. His dad worked hard to get him 2nd hand equipment, Hamilton then used his natural ability to shine and get his break. But wasnt till recent years that he actually made good money from racing and to be fair it fully deserved and he should have had 2 championships by now if not for some silly errors that he learnt from in his first season.

Now as for this season.
If you look at statistics such as overtakes, Hamilton is miles ahead of Button. Now you could argue that it because Button done better in qualifying and hasnt needed to overtake, but the fact is Hamilton is a very skilled driver and does manauvers other drivers wouldnt even dare. His double overtake recently showed great driving skills.

Basically I will say this.
Hamilton is the more skilled driver. He is aggressive in his driving and this means he overtakes where others wouldnt even try.

Button is the more experienced driver and makes better tactical calls. The thing that has got him the results in the recent races is because he made the right tyre calls.

I think the coming races in the European circuit will enable us to judge them better. There should be less rain related incidents which means it will come more down to what they can get out the actual car and this will show alot.

Basically I think they both very good drivers and that the difference is that Jenson is better at the tactical side of racing, Hamilton is better at the driving side (overtaking etc).

 

[Ceixah]

I do agree with you on some levels, but alot of people writing Jenson off in terms of overtaking ability, just go on youtube for buttons overtakes over the past 10 years, some of the over takes vs the likes of schumi alonso etc in the BAR are just phenominal!

I think the best one is on massa a few years ago blinding over take, the thing i've always noticed is hamilton overtakes the slower drivers with no problem but against an equally matched car he has troubles (and who doesnt in the current f1)

i think hes a fantastic driver but his immaturity is so apparent which is a shame.

The british press didnt help my opinion of him either when the lewis hamilton show was on ITV, no other driver even got a mention during ITV era with hamilton involved.

Nice to be able to discuss f1 with people tho hence why i made the thread!

And what defines a better racer?

because I think the better racer is the one that finishes in the higher position over a consistent period ?
so overtaking is irrelevant really, aslong as you can the positions without ramming opponents off the road (Schumacher/Hill)

 

[Corran]

Better driver is a tough one to define, and there are different "types" of drivers.

Button is a good driver and can overtake, but he way too conservative most the time. 2nd half of the season showed how edgy he can be, and even when taking into account the fact that the other teams caught up in car ability, he just seemed to slack off. This was evident more in qualifying though where he seemed to be happy to take 6-10th instead of pushing.
That said, decision making in race was better and he was a little more aggressive but still at times seemed to settle for picking up small number of points as he knew he had such a big lead.

Button may have more points as you said, but Hamilton shown he the fastest driver. Every single race he has outpaced Button, once he actually puts it together in qualifying and doesnt have poor tactical decisions he 'should' finish comfortably ahead.

I agree, the media's handling of Hamilton is awful. And they actually still doing it at the moment on the BBC where they like to go on about how much better Hamilton is, and that Button got to be ahead by "lucky" calls. When tbh it been great decision making.

Hamilton does overtake the better cars at times, the problem is that even with a 2s advantage on an open track, when you get close to another car it down to 0.1s advantage due to the loss in downforce.
If one the top teams manages to get the car less dependant on the wings for downforce,then they will have a big advantage in this area. But to be honest, they probably loss out too much in other areas if they do this.

With all this said, i rate Button as a good driver that always been in the wrong car until last season. But I do think Hamilton has the edge on him.

The one that I am not sure about though, who gonna be dominant in the long term. Vettel or Hamilton. If them 2 ever become team mates then I feel sorry for other teams ... but i do think Vettel will be in the "German" team next season

 

[Ceixah]

I doubt either will be dominate to be honest, just wait til ferrari fix their car, hello alonso is all i'll say!

after all the really awful press he got at mclaren which wasnt helped by mclaren themselves by releasing the santander advert "anything u can do i can do better" featuring himself and hamilton(im sure it was all just a ploy to make the team more popular and to ruin alonso's career)

maybe thats a little cynical but I personally don't like mclaren at all seems to ruin all the good drivers! (in terms of personality)

Vettel is fantastic tho, however cant see him winning a world championship with the likes of alonso in a fast moving ferrari, this is the only season I can see it happening if ferrari don't pick up the pace!

feels like yesterday that red bull got their first podium with christian horner jumping into the pool wearing nothing but a superman cape ! so hopefully they'll stick around further i like the red bull team alot!

and i like mark webber alot too just he's not as good as vettel it seems

 

[ECA]

The rules this season promote 1-stopping, which rewards good tyre management - it results in a faster race pace than blasting your tyres and then nursing them once they are worn.

This skill is more important than almost anything else - unless/until tyre performance catches up and let's people drive very aggressively.

Hamilton is a very aggressive driver - while Jenson has excellent Tyre Management.

That's the difference between them this season and I think Jenson will beat Hamilton on points because a Leopard can't change it's spots. Hamilton has to fundamentally change his racing style - is he capable of it? We'll find out

 

[ST^]

Bridgestone need to make some intermediates that can actually do more than one lap on a mostly-dry track. This is why Button made some good/lucky decisions -- the risk of moving onto intermediates is insanely high. He has been rewarded so far, but it could easily go the other way.

 

[Corran]

Bridgestone need to make some intermediates that can actually do more than one lap on a mostly-dry track. This is why Button made some good/lucky decisions -- the risk of moving onto intermediates is insanely high. He has been rewarded so far, but it could easily go the other way.

To be honest, if they done that alot of grip would be lost because the tyre compound would be way too hard for the conditions.

It is right that intermediates shouldnt last long on a dry track, means team decisions come into play more this way. Maybe they could make the compound slightly tougher but shouldnt be much as it would then be too easy a decision to make. Would allow you to run the softer compound tyre and never need to use the harder one if you change to the intermediate for a few laps in middle of the race.

 

[ST^]

But we've already had situations where some of the track is too dry for them, but other places are wet enough to send people off on slicks. If you can't use intermediates in those conditions then wtf are you supposed to use?

 

[Corran]

Think Hamilton showed he was the better driver again, just a massive bit of bad luck and his tyre blewout. Looked like mechanical issue (rim?) to me as something appeared to fly off prior to the deflation

He had done so well to hold on to Vettel in the first part the race to get the jump in pits.

Would really have pissed of the Spanish if Hamilton finished ahead of Alonso ... better look at replays in slowmo for sniper bullet

 

[Shagrat]

how dull is the spanish grand prix jesus.

i know, lets build a track where its virtually impossible for anyone to overtake........

 

[Corran]

Next race is even worse

Spanish GP and Monaco back to back...
only advantage Monaco got over spa is it can get mixed up more due to increased accident chances = yellow flags or more to the point safety car influence...

Still disappointed with Hamilton's luck Hope that has bad luck translates to good luck for Man utd and bad luck for Chelsea over the next 2 and half hours