The Euro, shouldn't we decide?

[PR.]

Anyone remember what William Hague said before the last general election. That they would reject the Euro no matter what. The only reason they are changing now is their typical bandwagon jumping to follow the public opinion

 

[kameleon]

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
There was a referendum about whether or not to join the common market, and that was from a Tory government.

That was 30 years ago.


the thing with ALL governments is that they treat us like children; except at election time. In my opinion anyone who wants to be a politician should be shot.

Having lived through almost 20 years of a tory government and seeing the total and VINDICTIVE destruction of the trade union movement, seeing the NHS brought to it's knees, pensioners who fought to save our country from fascism and mental patients turned out of asylums onto the streets there is no way on this earth I would ever vote a tory government in again. Thats why at the next general election im voting liberal.


There is also no way if I ever get the chance to vote for a unified currency I ever would give the ok to join the euro. If it was up to me we wouldnt be in the EEC in the first place.

 

[Lester]

Originally posted by PR.
Anyone remember what William Hague said before the last general election. That they would reject the Euro no matter what. The only reason they are changing now is their typical bandwagon jumping to follow the public opinion

Public opinion is against the euro.

If you see Labour interviews it's all:

Interviewer: what are your policies regarding the health service?

Labour dude: The Tories suck!! They did bad stuff ten yrs ago! Err and they smell.


I'm not saying the Tories are great , far from it, but Labour have lost the plot. Did I mention Tony Blair is a cock?

They all suck tbh. Let Charlie Kennedy have a go fs! He likes a drink, he can't be all bad.

And regarding the question of The Euro, closer ties is the wrong way to go imo. Whether you thought the Iraq war was right or not, the disagreements sparked by that conflict highlighted some potentially dangerous differences in international policy.

 

[Xtro]

I'm for the Euro as...it makes sense.

These old codgers who think a bit of metal or paper having a different face on it will mean us losing our NATIONAL IDENTITY are losing the fucking plot. Diff nations have diff notes and coins, so you'll still have pictures of people that British teenagers know fuck all about on them.

On a different note I'm all for a United States of Europe. USA have diff laws in diff states, it would be the same here. But then thats a different issue

 

[Lester]

^^^^

Don't listen to him!! He works for teh government!1!!

Agitator!

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Lester
Public opinion is against the euro.

Public opinion is they couldn't give a shit.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by dysfunction
The point I was trying to make is that the Tories are pressing labour for a referendum yet they never bothered about them.

They just have double standards.

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter a jot what the Tories did. We should have a referendum on the Euro and we should have a referendum on the European constitution.

Sure, we have a parliamentary democracy, who, under normal circumstances, should be left alone for 5 years to get on with it. But these issues will be taking power away from parliament and giving it to Brussels. Whether you like that idea or not it's right that we should have a seperate vote before parliament hands over many of its powers, away from our normal voting process.

Ok, that's worded badly but it's early and I feel like death. You get my meaning.

 

[dysfunction]

Now I understand where you are coming from...and I quite agree!

 

[Wij]

Good

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Wij
Sure, we have a parliamentary democracy, who, under normal circumstances, should be left alone for 5 years to get on with it. But these issues will be taking power away from parliament and giving it to Brussels. Whether you like that idea or not it's right that we should have a seperate vote before parliament hands over many of its powers, away from our normal voting process.

Firstly, this is not about political union, its economic union, which has already been decided. Changing the currency is not a one-way street, it can be changed back. I'd admit that adopting the Euro is probably going down that same street, but we are still not at the stage of "handing power away".

The "handing powers away" argument is facile anyway, many decisions are already being made beyond the writ of government, only because it is prudent to do so and to go against the grain would involve too much risk, there has never been any enforcement of european directives, just an undertaking that's all. Parliament is not relocating to Brussels any time soon, this is spreading FUD.

What is not being understood is that Britain has only been outside the "eurozone" for a short period, the effects of being on the outside looking in have not yet hit us, european trade is already shifting towards those countries with the Euro, the question is do we jump in whilst the going is good or wait for the shit to hit the fan first ?

 

[Furr]

Money = Power

Control the money, have the power. So in any case euro is bad. handing over the control of the basic stuff that runs the world to people we dont even know is daft

euro = BAD BAD BAD

 

[Wij]

Ignore the Euro for one minute. We've already been promised a referendum on that and go back to my argument about foreign policy. The treaty we are about to be signed up to goes a long way to handing many powers over to Brussels. I want a vote about whether my future votes will be of much use. I you catch my drift.

And back to the Euro. You're scaremongering Xena. Tell me WHY being outside the Euro will harm us rather than just saying we have a choice between keeping the pound or GLOBAL PLAGUE AND DOOOOOM !!11

(ok - I exaggerated but "waiting for the shit to hit the fan" implies it's inevitable without bothering with any evidence. You should be a politician.)

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Furr
Money = Power

Control the money, have the power. So in any case euro is bad. handing over the control of the basic stuff that runs the world to people we dont even know is daft

euro = BAD BAD BAD

So, you know Gordon Brown personally then ?

We have just as much detachment from european politicians as we have with our own, just because he's in "your tribe" doesn't make him a better candidate.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Wij
I want a vote about whether my future votes will be of much use. I you catch my drift.

Your vote today, and for the forseeable future, will be for a representative candidate for your local constituency, it makes no difference if s/he sits in a european Parliament or a British (or Scottish or Welsh or Irish) one.

As you stated, many government decisions are made because of European directives, not because they have to, but because it is mad not to, if you agree to a union of some sort, there's no real point going off and doing your own thing.

Right now there is no real representative democracy in Europe, principally because people prefer national governments at the moment, but this can and will change, with or without Britain involved.

Your "vote" is safe, don't worry.

Originally posted by Wij
And back to the Euro. You're scaremongering Xena. Tell me WHY being outside the Euro will harm us rather than just saying we have a choice between keeping the pound or GLOBAL PLAGUE AND DOOOOOM !!11

No, YOU prove why being INSIDE will harm us - ha ha ha ha !

Apart from the obvious notion that a country with the Euro would prefer to buy from another country with the Euro, and that nearly everyone who trades across Europe agrees that having a single currency is not actually a bad idea and avoids all that messy exchange rate and its subsequent levies.

I'd have to admit that it is very difficult to come up with "proof" that trade may not improve if we continue to have our own currency. Many countries in the world have adopted the dollar (or parity with it) for trade and seen economies grow, you can only really see positive examples, cheifly because you tend to get into deep doo-doo before you finally make the decision and it all seems fine.

I can't see any real advantage having a separate currency myself, as I'm often reminded everytime I have to convert my beloved sterling to go abroad and get ripped off in commission.

 

[Shocko]

Euro good, Blair bad.

Labour is not so bad really. For instance, on the war issue, it was Labour MPs who voted against it, not the Torys. The problem is, that the party is controled by Blair and his cronies("New Labour"), and the masses are bogged down in apathy.

I'm deffinately voting Libdems. Yeah, it's probably throwing my vote away, as i believe my constituancy is totally split between the Torys and Labour, with hardly any Libdem voters... But it's either that, or just not voting

 

[Xtro]

Originally posted by Furr
Money = Power

Control the money, have the power. So in any case euro is bad. handing over the control of the basic stuff that runs the world to people we dont even know is daft

euro = BAD BAD BAD

Furr, you're a decent chap. However that is the biggest load of ill written shite I've read on here in a long time.

"handing over the control of the basic stuff that runs the world to people we dont even know is daft" - that bit is the worst offender. It sounds like Billy Tory the xenophobe, aged 13 3/4 wrote it.

As xane said, Gordon Brown doesn't pop round for tea and buns does he but you let him run our economy.

This whole debate is irrelevant anyway as we'll be joining the Euro next term of govt.

 

[Furr]

Im bored mmm'k, ok to be perfectly honest.

We should join BUT! not now... why, intrest rates, and the trade cycle.

If we join the euro we will have a fixed intrest rate that is directly set by the EU central bank. right..

Well Germany is on the brink of recession and France isn't doing so hot at the moment either.
Britain on the other hand is doing pretty well in the world economy, unemployment is low and the public is still spending. However Germany would want higher intrest rates to try to kickstart their failing economy,

We on the other hand need low intrest rates to stop our economy from going out of control. Also there is the trade cycle. The old system of Boom and bust was massivly alleviated when the goverment gave control of the rates to the bank of england, which so far has been doing a really good job.

However they spend a very long time getting these rates right and have to be careful to choose the interest rate that will work in the south and the north.
And we want to give the power to control spending to the people in brussels who will determine it for countries all over europe!!!!

Germany needs to get there public spending. we dont, if the rates are changed to try too help Germany and give France a little boost, then inflation over here would once again go out of control. Prices would go up, people would start running out of money. Cost of living would go up, perpetuating the deadly spiral that has caused the last recessions to be so disaterous.

But i say we should join the euro? yes but not unless we harmonise the trends of europe so we operate as one body. Otherwise get ready for the 80s al over again.

What do you prefer a custom suit that feels great and works however you move or a generic suit that splits at its seams if you move too much. ?

/edit: And Gordon brown can lick my arse, he does'nt run it, the head of the Bank of england is our champion: Sir Eddy George.

 

[xane]

Whether the interest rate is set by the Bank of England or the ECB is a moot point, the fact is it is NOT set by the government. In fact this is proof that interest rate control is better set by autonomous organisations and has a lot more support, seeing (as you said) the boom and bust cycle was deliberately engineered by the previous Conservative government controlling it directly.

Right now the government can take back that control and screw up again, with the Euro they are committed to independent interest rate control.

Germany's recession was a result of reunification, the Euro is a way out for them. As I said, would you want Britain to drop paddles and float up shit creek before we go in, or do we admit that at some point we might run into difficulties later and we might as well go in whilst we can afford it.

The result of the eurozone is unclear because of the short period of time it has been fully operational. But what is clear is the mood of companies willing to operate within the Euro rather than outside it, France and German economies may be in dire shape, but their trade is improving and ours isn't.

Your speculation over another country affecting our economy is already happening, the BoE tends to watch what America does, and we often catch cold when someone in the pacific rim economy sneezes (or is that SARS ?). The global nature of the economy now is more excuse that we need to associate with a larger power block, it's either America or Europe atm.

The problem is your "custom suit" doesn't exist, and never will, Britain is already shopping at "Suits R Us", it's either the Bruxelles branch or the one in Washington Main St we need to choose.

 

[Furr]

erm 'we' dont just catch a cold, the whole world catches a cold when the US slips!!! Their economy is huge, Their Spending power is huge they are huge!!!

I think you will find that the BoE intrest rate has always been set to keep the UK inflation level within certain target and not inline with the US or EU.

Yes it was the conservatives fault for the boom and bust but only because their theory on economics was flawed.

Now that the BoE has control its not happend for over a decade,

Pience of pointless info: Sir Eddy George has to write the goverment a letter saying what went wrong if the economy does not hit target. Which thankfully he doesn't do very often.

Im saying its a really good thing that the BoE has control. However The Eurozone is big and made up of countries that act very differently to each other.

This has become a political mess, and people are ignoring the economics. Most seem willing to take the chance of a switch that may prove disaterous from entering too hastily.

 

[xane]

My point is that being a core member of an economic power block is a lot more "cold resistant" than being on our own.

The "flaw" in Thatcherite monetarism was just that - the government directly controlling interest rates. There is presently no guarentee that any future government will never return to that policy, with control in the hands of a truely autonomous organisation like ECB it cannot happen again, you are proving my point on this by agreeing.

So how do countries "act differently to each other", are they some primitive species using stones as currency or something ? Economies within Europe, Britain included, are _very_ closely linked within the ERM and they all act the same, in fact our economy shares a lot more with France/Germany than America or Japan.

Your initial statement was "handing over control of money", but its already been handed over and it's proved to be a _good_ _thing_. if Eddie George got replaced by Eduardo Georgio in the same office in Threadneedle Street you wouldn't bat an eyelid, and it would be no different if he moved to Frankfurt either, in fact away from the government the better eh ?

 

[(Shovel)]

Some of you might be interested to have a read of this. It's by an MEP (not sure which flavour) basically trying to stand up for "the other side" that the Daily Mail and The Sun are trying to trample.

It's quick an interesting read. I mean, it isn't supposed to sway you to agree with one side or the other - but it does point out how a lot of the bullshit being thrown around about "signing ourselves away" is, as I say, bullshit.

 

[xane]

Nick Clegg is LibDem MEP for East Midlands.

 

[Furr]

How do countries act differently!!! your kidding right......

Basic economic theory has a supply and demand graph. this graph will roughly show the elasticity of a products price when demand rises or lowers,
For example, Oil has nearly no elasticity since its a nessecity good. (and dont try to say its not, it is) so when the prices go up deamand changes by very little.

While products such as a Porche is a luxury item and is very price elastic. so when prices go up, alot less people will buy.

Now the cost of an item is determined by 'Demand'. What is demand? Well depends on the product but its classsed as the desire to get that item. How much you desire that item determines the demand.

Now your asking me why are countries different?
Ok lets take a very crude example: Marmite. lets assume perfect knowledge.
Demand in the Uk for Marmite is at a level that determins that its price is.. Lets say 80p. with unit cost being 25p

This is a cultural thing, the British have an affinity for marmite and therfore there is a demand. Now we take our product to france. Where the same market forces set the price at 30p? but with unit cost at 25p its not as profitable! (bit off topic at the moment)
Why does this happen you ask. The french dont like marmite so demand is alot lower and the price that the French are willing to pay for the it that would produce a profit is 35p. They could even sell it a break even prices, but whats the point?

Trends play an important factor is demand and supply. When one country is in the spending mode, goverments use the intrest rate to slow down demand, otherwise inflation would rise and cost of living increase. Germany is basically in a recession, England is not, Germany is europes largest economy... work it out

 

[Xtro]

Originally posted by Xtro

This whole debate is irrelevant anyway as we'll be joining the Euro next term of govt.

 

[xane]

Furr, stop talking bollocks.

Marmite is owned by Bovril, now part of Unilever Bestfoods, who make country specific brand products all over the world, for every "British" foodstuff there is a "French" one and a "German" one too, and they are all owned by the same company, the money ends up in the same pot (actually in America).

P.S. Unilever also own "Cif", you may remember it as "Jif", how do you know that Marmite is not sold as a different name in another country, with the same product inside ?

Don't try and make out Germany is in the shit because they don't eat enough Marmite.

 

[dysfunction]

Oi Dunt leik Marmite

 

[Furr]

Originally posted by xane
Furr, stop talking bollocks.

Marmite is owned by Bovril, now part of Unilever Bestfoods, who make country specific brand products all over the world, for every "British" foodstuff there is a "French" one and a "German" one too, and they are all owned by the same company, the money ends up in the same pot (actually in America).

P.S. Unilever also own "Cif", you may remember it as "Jif", how do you know that Marmite is not sold as a different name in another country, with the same product inside ?

Don't try and make out Germany is in the shit because they don't eat enough Marmite.

I give up

lets just fluffle and make up

 

[Tom]

I don't see how people can use the cases of different countries having different economic needs; after all, the economy of London is hardly the same as the economy of Cumbria, is it? You might as well have a parliament in every region in the UK, then we can all buy our little 'Cumbrian Sun' and read about those 'Evil Devoners' and how they will 'control our milk' production.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Originally posted by xane
Marmite is owned by Bovril, now part of Unilever Bestfoods, who make country specific brand products all over the world, for every "British" foodstuff there is a "French" one and a "German" one too, and they are all owned by the same company, the money ends up in the same pot (actually in America).

P.S. Unilever also own "Cif", you may remember it as "Jif", how do you know that Marmite is not sold as a different name in another country, with the same product inside ?

Unilever is a dutch/english fusion with the headoffice is in Holland the diverance in the beginning was 60% dutch-40% UK, most of the stocks are still in Holland.

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
I don't see how people can use the cases of different countries having different economic needs; after all, the economy of London is hardly the same as the economy of Cumbria, is it? You might as well have a parliament in every region in the UK, then we can all buy our little 'Cumbrian Sun' and read about those 'Evil Devoners' and how they will 'control our milk' production.

That sounds like the making of a great game!!!

*copyrights*