The atheist bus campaign

[rynnor]

Yes, but why does it have to be "you vs us!", to the extreme. This is what i meant with zealots being the problem.

Well actually it was you who made it you v us when you said earlier 'Not an attack on your precious science.'

The your bit pushing us into a seperate camp when up till that point it had been a discussion.

Edit - anyway I give up now - as I said earlier peoples beliefs are part of their self image so these things never go well and I have no wish to further upset you or anyone else.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well actually it was you who made it you v us when you said earlier 'Not an attack on your precious science.'

The your bit pushing us into a seperate camp when up till that point it had been a discussion.

That's really weak.

Jsut look abck and see where it turned.

Using that "precious science" thing as an excuse is as sturdy as a marmite ship.

The precious science ws only due to you telling me to join the scientology department ater i said "Even science could be said to be an analogy to magic.", which was NOT an attack.

And to your edit: Has nothing to do with my belief, just with no common respect of my freedom of choice.

Also, like said, same goes with atheists, agnostics, and all people. It doesn't go well when talking about beliefs.

 

[DaGaffer]

For both, i'm not asking for respect for my faith or hat i believe in, i'm asking for respect towards me.

For example, telling me to join Scientology is uncalled for. Telling me that you think the 8 legged horse of odin was a deadbody for the pyre, is ok.

If you question my belief, it's ok, but if you disrespect my choice to do what i want, it's a different matter.

I don't know what you're talking about. At no point have I attacked you personally, but, and this is the point I was alluding to earlier, its very difficult for a "person of faith" to separate criticism of their religion from criticism of them. As you've just demonstrated.

And DaGaffer yes, i am, 100% ready to be proven wrong, but as is evident from your and other people posts, and people i've talked with, atheists and agnostics pile up ALL religions and belief systems into one scale.

Like "If a religion says its ok to subjugate women and treat them as property I'm sorry but I cannot 'respect' that" which is something i don't respect either.

There are two separate issues here, religion, and the religious. I can and do "pile up all religions into one scale", in that I find no evidence for any of them and as far as I'm concerned they're all bollocks (I make a slight exception for Buddhism, but only the philosophical aspects, the mythology is as full of mumbo-jumbo as the rest). On the other hand, I certaintly don't classify the believers of various religions as all the same, and there it gets more complicated; you have to break it down to "is the religion inherently dangerous?" (e.g. you wouldn't want to live next door to an Aztec Quetzalcoatl worshipper), "are the teachings of the religion open to nasty interpretations?" (Islam and fundamentalist Christianity currently), and "do those teachings affect me?" (ditto). Then you can start to class individuals on a harmless to bugfuck scary scale. But the point is, this debate is about the validity of religion, not the failings of the religious. If you can show the former is bollocks you may curb the worst of the latter (or not, Communism springs to mind).

I don't judge you by a single aspect of your life, let you be, never said anything about it being wrong. I might not respect that view, but i respect you enough to hold it if you want and not make jokes about it.

My lack of belief is robust enough that you can make all the jokes you want about it. And I'm English, we make a joke out of everything. Stop taking it personally.

 

[ECA]

Now, you're going to hate me for saying this but, you're the one who's not willing to entertain a possibility and took a simple discussion into some form of "religion is like this!" discussion.

I said IF a god appeared, and proved itself to you, would you worship it?

Nothing about faith as in that scenario it would be a fact, nothing if there "is or isnt' a god", nothing of the sort, i didn't even try to convert you or doubt your own way of life, i simply stated a scenario.

You said "i wouldn't worship him", i gave a clearer scenario and asked "would you then?"

And even if it has no bearing on the discussion, i'm norse.

Do you really thing a supreme being would require us to worship it due to its insecurities? If so I'd like to be the galactic psychiatrist, 1 planet/hr please bob.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't know what you're talking about. At no point have I attacked you personally, but, and this is the point I was alluding to earlier, its very difficult for a "person of faith" to separate criticism of their religion from criticism of them. As you've just demonstrated.

No i haven't, and i haven't accused you of attacking either. The "for both" was meant towards the respect aspect.

I separate it very clearly, but i also don't appreciate you, putting ME, into same categories as christian crusades, suicide bombers and injustice to women.

You're basically doing the same if i told you that you're nothing but a glorified satanist.

How would you take it?

Just to be clear about how it sounds to me, that you might not notice.

Thing is, even if you're cool enough to be joked about, doesn't make it ok for YOU to make jokes about others. Hensh, lack of respect.

Which is, what i meet every time with atheists. They are the "smart and logical people", yet, they are the ones who take an issue on someone elses way of life even IF it is involved in no way in any crap that religion has caused.

ECA, don't know, it's a simple hypohetical situation that cna't be answered by extreme non-believers without taking ALL THIS shit into it.

I guess if i had to name one thing about atheists, that could irk my bum, is the "supreme" attitude. Same elitism that is used as a "proof point" of sorts, how religions are mass control devices of the elite.

 

[DaGaffer]

No i haven't, and i haven't accused you of attacking either. The "for both" was meant towards the respect aspect.

I separate it very clearly, but i also don't appreciate you, putting ME, into same categories as christian crusades, suicide bombers and injustice to women.

You're doing it again. Taking a comment about religion as a personal attack. I didn't put YOU into the same category as suicide bombers etc. but I'd certainly put your religion into that category. Those old timey Vikings did some nasty shit in the name of their religion, including human sacrifice

You're basically doing the same if i told you that you're nothing but a glorified satanist.

How would you take it?

Just to be clear about how it sounds to me, that you might not notice.

Wouldn't care less, although I would point out the logical absurdity of your statement as "Satan" is just another diety (well, fallen Angel), and I don't believe in them do I?

Thing is, even if you're cool enough to be joked about, doesn't make it ok for YOU to make jokes about others. Hensh, lack of respect.

Tough. You're on FH, taking the piss is a given, within the bounds of the CoC, and as I keep saying, I'm not attacking YOU, I'm attacking religion.

Which is, what i meet every time with atheists. They are the "smart and logical people", yet, they are the ones who take an issue on someone elses way of life even IF it is involved in no way in any crap that religion has caused.

ECA, don't know, it's a simple hypohetical situation that cna't be answered by extreme non-believers without taking ALL THIS shit into it.

I guess if i had to name one thing about atheists, that could irk my bum, is the "supreme" attitude. Same elitism that is used as a "proof point" of sorts, how religions are mass control devices of the elite.

I think this says more about you than it does about atheists tbh. If you were truly confident in your beliefs this would all be water off a duck's back to you. And once again, it wouldn't matter if your religion was perfect and never did anything wrong, it would still be a religion, a belief in a diety, and atheism is simply "is this likely? No".

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah it's my fault people call me stuff, i'm not strong enough, go tell some kids it's their fault that they get beat up.

All atheists the same, elitist f*cks and everything is better when it's from atheist point of view.

Atheist is just a satanist with a technicality.

Probably went for atheism 'cause someone did something bad to them as kids.

Still a belief, way of life, same sh*t, different package.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah it's my fault people call me stuff, i'm not strong enough, go tell some kids it's their fault that they get beat up.

All atheists the same, elitist f*cks and everything is better when it's from atheist point of view.

Atheist is just a satanist with a technicality.

Probably went for atheism 'cause someone did something bad to them as kids.

Still a belief, way of life, same sh*t, different package.

Feeling better now?

 

[Will]

Atheist is just a satanist with a technicality.

I like this line. It is a pretty big technicality though.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Feeling better now?

What? they are. Elitist people who think they are smarter and better for being "cool" and not believe in anything.

And look back who started this whole thing, a atheist. Big suprise, atheist "i can attack anyones view and say anything about it 'cause i'm better" card.

Yes i'm just making a point.

 

[DaGaffer]

What? they are. Elitist people who think they are smarter and better for being "cool" and not believe in anything.

And look back who started this whole thing, a atheist. Big suprise, atheist "i can attack anyones view and say anything about it 'cause i'm better" card.

Yes i'm just making a point.

But we are cool. And we're just...better than you. There's no getting away from it...you suck. Sorry.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well you're right in one sense, we are cool, as in i'm not ranting and raving and throwing hissyfits here even if some wordings may seem do

I don't take internet personally.

 

[SheepCow]

In my opinion I expect if you questioned the masses about religion you'd find that even some people call themselves Christian (or any other religion) they're really atheists in disguise. I wouldn't be surprised if they really thought that there is no omnipotent being, but merely wish to be "moral and just".

People like to be labelled, they like to feel like they belong to something.

I'm one of those really. I tend to write down that I'm XXX (I was raised in XXX schools) despite not believing in a word of it. However, I acknowledge that such a thing may exist - and if it does, I would expect it would appreciate my human ability to decide for myself.

 

[DaGaffer]

Heh, that reminds me:

YouTube - Dara O'Briain on Religion

 

[nath]

Lets get this clear shall we? The only thing that groups atheists together is the LACK of a belief in the divine. The only think that groups religious people together is the willingness to believe in something which has NO evidence. Any disparaging remarks/attitudes you may receive Toht are surely down to this fact. Quite frankly, I think it's a good idea to question religious people on their beliefs.

You've no idea how much I hate quoting anything written by Kevin Smith (the utter talentless sack of shit that he is) but in Dogma Chris Rock's character says something to the effect of "don't have beliefs, beliefs make you do shit you wouldn't normally do, have ideas." I think he was on to something on the assessment of belief - it's a powerful word that suggest something you hold to be absolutely true. For this very reason I think *all* beliefs should be attacked, and a lot of religious folk clearly won't like it as there's simply no evidence for what they believe.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well in my mind, all religious people have incommon is belief in something unproven. All atheists have incommon is the lack there of.

In essential same deal, different sides.

I don't mind questioning, not at all, i'm willing to participate in any discussion about my beliefs as long as they stay in discussing MY belief and as long as other religions and wrongdoings aren't brought into play.

By the way DaGaffer, excellent comic, never heard before and those "bad vikings" were called savages

 

[00dave]

As a very clever and respected person once said. "Each day that passes is more proof that there is no god or gods."

 

[nath]

Well in my mind, all religious people have incommon is belief in something unproven.

I think there's a difference between something "unproven" and something that lacks any evidence whatsoever. I'd put religious belief in the latter camp, but I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think there's a difference between something "unproven" and something that lacks any evidence whatsoever. I'd put religious belief in the latter camp, but I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Same here, but well, there's a problem that only way i can be proven wrong is by death, by another god popping by and saying "you're wrong" or by someone making a telescope that sees up buddhas behind

I don't mena that as "you can't prove gods don't exist!", but as a, it's the only way i myself can be persuaded to not believe. If you know what i mean.

Though, more interesting then god/s being up there, down there, sideways there...is my belief that i'm immortal until proven otherwise, prove ME that

 

[nath]

I don't mena that as "you can't prove gods don't exist!", but as a, it's the only way i myself can be persuaded to not believe. If you know what i mean.

I believe* that my slice of toast has a soul, and that when I eat it, it becomes a part of me, and the soul aspect of the toast is linked to my very being, once the afterlife comes I will have an army of toast-souls with which to rule heaven.

Now this is clearly utter utter bullshit, but it's one of those things that can never be proven wrong until we die. So my question to you is, why believe what you believe, and not believe my toast-religion? When there's no evidence for either one, and neither can be disproved, why chose one over the other?






*Obviously I don't believe this*.




*It's actually porridge-souls that I'm collecting.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Now this is clearly utter utter bullshit, but it's one of those things that can never be proven wrong until we die. So my question to you is, why believe what you believe, and not believe my toast-religion? When there's no evidence for either one, and neither can be disproved, why chose one over the other?

Well first, toast is satan, and satan tricks you with toast.

Second, if that WAS your belief, i'd let you believe it and not think two ways about it.

What differentiates your belief from mine, is that i find mine believable to me. As said before, it just feels right.

It's kinda like music taste, if i want to put it in a very simple, not at all relevant way.

i'm not denying your toast theory, it's proven without a doubt when you die ofcourse, and these things(excluding a deity apperance) are only proven to you. But, it's a freedom of choice and as such, i don't judge anyone just because they beliee in toast-souls.

 

[Chilly]

yer all nobbers. that video was good tho