The Assassin Question - sb, inf or ns??

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nemesisgm

Guest
Ok seeing as we have about a dozen different posts a week arguing about this and that about the assassin, lets try and put it to bed once and for all. Inf, sb or ns?? Pro's con, opre 1.62 and post 1.62... who comes out on top?

The Shadowblade.

Ok the sb has according to recent polls taking a major beating and suffers badly due to the dmg output reduction in patch 1.62. Now was this reduction wholely justified.. From a long serving sb partially yes. though Mythic took little consideration in the overall affect it would have on the Shadowblade population as a whole. The implemented it without due consideration or proper testing, making the overall penalty greater than was actually required. Yes the shadowzerker hit to hard for an assassin... but before all those who have made comment regarding Shadowblades beating Tanks, the issue will be addressed. My current Left Axe skill of 20 is the highest it has every been in the 2 odd years I've been playing my SB, and yet for all that time, I have constantly and still do to some extent, when i find someone who doesn't have a bot up his ass... beat tanks of both realms (Plus a fair number of duels with fellow mids including the dread savage). Should an assassin be able buff for buff or unbuffed to beat a tank... answer yes, with the exception of the nightshade whose spellcasting is far from useful, they are in the end of the day a melee class, for them to kill then need to be up close and personal, this people seem to neglect to take into account, sb, inf or ns... in the end of the day we are a melee class, so should given a bit of luck, take on and beat a tank. However, it should be as everyday common practice as people seem to make out. For the sb post 1.62 it certainly is not, a few of us still know what to do and spamming double frost has never been an option for us. So please people stop assuming us sb's were all shadowzerker who did 400 dmg a style we were not. Those that were have been brought back into reality thankfully. As for the rest of us, we have suffered slightly for their sins, it happens such is life. And contrary to public opinion, which my opinion usually is there is still life in the shadowblade, ok our list of pro's is very short, and the published advantages we have ... better hp is beyond laughable, as it works out as less than advantage if not a hinderance, compared to the weakness of our cousins the inf and ns.

Pro's:

Use of 2 handed weapons for specialised styles such as Perferate Artery. Yes beenficial if used in the right place at the right time. I rarely even carry a 2 hander, occasionally stopping into vault to pick it up if i remember, but in open rvr, the 2-handed weapon is more a bain to the sb than a bonus, slow, inaccurate, and making what for all intent purpose is the sb's bread and butter, reactionary styles hamstring chain for example impossible. However the dmg output when used correctly can be exceptional. I've personally done 1487dmg with a big crit of course to a lvl50 cleric many patches ago. ending his life there and then.. useful.. and always good for dealing with the dress wearers. However, in stealth vs stealth combat its a dead loss. Not the be all and end all of being a sb, but it helps.

Bonus hp.. see above.

Thrust Resistant Armour... ok considering the favoured weapon of your enemy assassin is thrust useful.

Evade 7: As for all the assassins this skill though having come under the nerfbat once still needs a little tweaking. Still on buffed assassins is a little to high, the weakness all assassins are ment to have is lack of major defences given up for massive dmg abilities from specialised stealth styles. Evade 7 even with the 50% cap which is to easy to achieve, give a superior defensive stance than should really be allowed.

Well that kind of puts and end to it.

Con's:

Lack of weapon dmg type... due to the nature of midgardian weaponry the sb suffers the inability to select thrust or slash specced weaponry like the other realms.

Weapon type vs enemy realm armour. With the vast majority of enemy realm armour types being slahs neutral or resistant the sb suffers greatly in its overall melee capaility.

Slash vulnerable armour. Being the only assassin with this trait it leaves the sb deficient in the resistance area's vs what is widely chosen as the favoured weapon by the majority of melee classes, the sword. Infiltrators and Nightshades are capable of speccing a weapon type that gains an advantages vs the sb's only form of armour. the sb has no such choice, infact both the ns and infs armour are crush vulnerable. a weapon common in midgard and some hibernians but still not relevent in the field of stealther comparison that everyone likes to talk about.

Realm Abilities: The Shadowblade realm ability table lacks any potence what so ever with few abilities of any value to the class and very little to no variance in shadowblade realm specs. Those with appeal are bugged Mastery of Arms ( to a small degree) for example.

Lack of debuff capabilities: Yes believe it or not everyone the assassin classes if into their venoms are classes same as the rest capable of debuffing. Now back to to the lack of debuffing ability of enemy weapon types short of the use of alchemy charged dex/quick debuff items which are available yes, the shadowblade suffers in the debuff market, as it is not properly capable fo debuffing his oppenant, in comparison to what happens when Enervation venom is used on him. Yes the shadowblade can if aware of alchemy charged items etc come out on top, as the combination of dex/quick and str/con debuffs leave a thrust specced assassin in tatters, not to mention nerfing evade rates a little. However, in common useage it is not, and is rather a complex procedure to do mid battle.

No Reactionary stun style off evade: Before all you infs scream Frosty Glaze, i'm refering to directly off evade. Personally i feel cd is enough of a stun for asassin classes and either as part of another chain or not, none of us should have one. And before you all think bet he say Dragonfang needs to be nerfed... In fact i don't i have no issue with it, a cleevr assassin is hard to dfang.. If the inf had sacrifice something for it then all well and good as the don't thats another matter.

Obviously there are more minor issues but these are the ones that simply cause the greatest ire on all sides. So highlighted them.

So in conclusion is the shadowblade grossly underpowered to warrant its death as many depict.. In this old sb's opinion no. It was in a fotm shaodwzerker sense, a little over the top, and did not warrant the action taken to bring it back into line, and the subsequent believe of its demise is far from true. The Shadowblade though atm below par, but only slightly with a few minor adjustments be a very credible class... as it stands now, it still is as it always has been a potent weapon when used correctly. The sb is far from dead.




The inf and ns reviews will follow later, once the flame begins ;)

D.
 
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taobitzz

Guest
Dont think you mentioned this, but using a two hander is meant to cut sb evade rate by 50% compared to 1handers, was reading about it last night on vn board not sure how much truth in it.
 
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Caeli

Guest
It's the new 'omgwtfplx! nerf SBs' posts on vn atm. Using LA is supposed to lower the evade rate of your target compared to 1H+Shield and 2H. Will be nice to see if SBs get another nerf. Guessing Mythic will just give up and delete the whole class or remove the ability to use 2 weapons for SBs.

/me plays Offspring - Kick Him When He's Down
 
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Arlone

Guest
no whines here :)

I dislike SB/NS that whine on "infs" stunstyle tho. It is not an inf-style - it's thrust and it's available to most classes in Alb (As you clearly stated in your SB-review).

If NS/SBs whine on DF then I should have the right to whine on your stun-styles right? I mean afterall slash-infs don't even have a stun-style ... be it reactionary or followup (yes we all got CD ofcourse). As I recall it SB's have a stun after evade (chain from that anyway) and NS got one right after evade. WAaAAAah! us infs dont have a propper stun-style after evade!!!111 (oh did I forget to mention I mean slash-infs? nm, infs will do) ;)

Back to subject

Maybe SB's do need something to put them "back in line", but I can't understand why they (you) want to be just like an inf? Everything we got you want, and then some :) If you like infs that much roll an inf instead ... the classes are not meant to be copies of eachother.

As I said I do agree that you need something tho - something unique to your class.

The sb is far from dead
Durgi Shadowstalker - lvl50 (Retired) Shadowsmurf.

funny :)
 
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Caeli

Guest
Originally posted by Arlone
If NS/SBs whine on DF then I should have the right to whine on your stun-styles right? I mean afterall slash-infs don't even have a stun-style ... be it reactionary or followup (yes we all got CD ofcourse). As I recall it SB's have a stun after evade (chain from that anyway) and NS got one right after evade. WAaAAAah! us infs dont have a propper stun-style after evade!!!111 (oh did I forget to mention I mean slash-infs? nm, infs will do) ;)
Last I checked Blade NSs didn't have any evade based stun either... If you don't have it, it's because you made a choice to not have it. Same with the LA stun or the Pierce stun. Tho Diamondback comes in a weaponline (lvl25) and Dragonfang comes in a weaponline (lvl50) and Frosty Gaze is in LA/CD/DW spec. How many infils have 39+ DW? (all the mercfils) And how many NSs have 39+ CD? It's alot of specpoints just to get a stun that's vastly inferior to it's counterparts. ;)
 
Z

Zii

Guest
Originally posted by Arlone
It is not an inf-style - it's thrust and it's available to most classes in Alb (As you clearly stated in your SB-review).


yeah ok..

but of all those who has access to speccing thurst how many has evade and the spec points to go 50 in it? infil and merc... doubt youll find many minstrel/scout specceing 50 thurst if any around at all
 
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umilard

Guest
I agree with durgi in alot of ways.. I think that atm the sb is the weakest of the three assassins and infil is the strongest.. (at high rr i would say nighthade is as good or maybe even better tho).

It used to be the other way around, when shadowzerkers just ran out of stealth and spammed styles and still won. I do feel that the nerf of sbs was justified, but maybe they nerfed them abit too much or maybe the other realms assassins should be "adjusted".

And personally i think that CD/BS should be the only stunstyle avaible to assassins, assassins _should_ have to land PA to win fights against tankclasses/hybrids. Remove the other stuns and boost CD abit (making it harder to parry/block/evade).

And yes, i do think assassins should be able to beat pure tanks, if they do everything right and have a bit of luck. It shouldn't be easy tho, and it isn't, a wellplayed tank can be very lethal. The real downside for the tank is no bonus to hit on slam tho, they should get bonus to hit imo.

Assassins should be one of those classes that you have to play very well to master, since assassin have one of the biggest things in favour of them, the element of surprice.. It makes a hell of a difference to fight an enemy when you isn't prepared for it, i know, i have the same advantage against nonstealthers with my minstrel and _alot_ of my solo kills i win simply becouse enemies panic / isn't ready.

oh, and i don't think durgi is retired, atleast not completety, saw him kill someone in sauvage the other day ;> Think he's just lazy when it comes to updating his sig ;>
 
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Lanfaer

Guest
If off evadestuns were removed from assassins then they'll be on par, as it is now a thrust-inf or thrust-ns only need to rely on landing their evadestun and they'll win easily over an otherwise equal SB.

So until DF and diamondback are removed from assassins or put in chainstyle I'll not be happy :)

Agree with original poster that SB's are not dead, only need to be more wary of the other stealthers nowadays.
 
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old.Emma

Guest
Agree with Durgi.

Emma is far from dead. still alive and kicking (alb butts), personally i try and avoid encounters with other stealther class's unless purge is up but anything else is fair game for me. Had some fantastic fights post-nurf in some case's fights where i have killed multiple level 50`s one after another. My current record being 4 ;p 2 Rangers, 1 Paladin, 1 Cleric. Ofcourse to do this i had to use End Regen pots and also used a Dmg add charge when fighting the pally ;p

There are some things that defenatly need fixing for SB`s one of the most important as far as im concerened is Realm Abilities, closely followed by the impact Enervation (Str/con debuffs) have on our weaponskill.

Im not too worried about having Slash Vulnerable armour, there aren`t that many assassin's in other realms that do spec slash weapons, but those that do can and do hit very hard.

As for evade based stuns, where as i dont want to see any spec lines nurfed to a certain degree, i do think the availability of some styles needs to be looked into for certain class's, Dragonfang/Diamondback are perfectly fine styles, there is no problem at all with those particular styles on class that do not have high level's of evade like Scouts, Minstrels, Rangers, Mercenary's, Blademasters etc, but when given to class that can get upto 50% chance to evade an attack those styles can cause problems. What would be an interesting change would be to have those stun styles moved to there secondary spec lines like Duel Weild, Celtic Duel, mean all damage types could get the style but they would have to sacrifice something in-order to get it.

IE Diamondback/Dragonfang/FrostyGaze (all made 7s stuns off evade at 39 Spec)

SB/NS specs would be almost identical if they want to have the stun style.

39-44 Weapon
34+ CS
34+ Stealth
39+ LA/CD
20+ Envenom

Infil spec would be similar but have some skills slightly higher in spec.

44+ Weapon
34+ CS
35+ Stealth
39+ DW
30+ Envenom

I know class's from each realm shouldn`t be identical but the problem there is there the most played class and are far more likely to run into each other. So having one assassin better than others and vice versa is and will always cause problems with balance.
 
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Lanfaer

Guest
Originally posted by old.Emma


IE Diamondback/Dragonfang/FrostyGaze (all made 7s stuns off evade at 39 Spec)

SB/NS specs would be almost identical if they want to have the stun style.

39-44 Weapon
34+ CS
34+ Stealth
39+ LA/CD
20+ Envenom

Infil spec would be similar but have some skills slightly higher in spec.

44+ Weapon
34+ CS
35+ Stealth
39+ DW
30+ Envenom

Put the stun on 50DW instead, since infs have .3 more specpoints they'll have similar weaponskill to the rest of the assassins if they have to put50 into DW instead of thrust, a very good solution imo, then they'll have to sacrifice something in order to get it, like SB's have to use lowgrade poisons.
 
F

froler-mid

Guest
Originally posted by Lanfaer
Put the stun on 50DW instead, since infs have .3 more specpoints they'll have similar weaponskill to the rest of the assassins if they have to put50 into DW instead of thrust, a very good solution imo, then they'll have to sacrifice something in order to get it, like SB's have to use lowgrade poisons.

soo....u want even more 50dw/thrust infils...? ;d
 
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cougar-

Guest
Inf cuz then u dobt have to run 20 min to get some action. its SO MFING BORING TO RUN, so dont make ns :p
 
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Hargh

Guest
Spot who was drunk at 2am. (Not for content, for style)
 
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old.windforce

Guest
cool, lets whine some more about DF


:sleeping:
 
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Damon_D

Guest
Nope let's not ..let's whine about the xtra 0,3 spec points ... The style is not the REAL problem , the problem is they dont sacrifise diddly to get it , or 50 in slash for that matter.. I wish I could take my weapon to 50 without feeking up my other skill's..but that I can not do...
 
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Naveh

Guest
Originally posted by Damon_D
Nope let's not ..let's whine about the xtra 0,3 spec points ... The style is not the REAL problem , the problem is they dont sacrifise diddly to get it , or 50 in slash for that matter.. I wish I could take my weapon to 50 without feeking up my other skill's..but that I can not do...

Only thing that would happen is.. more Mercfils.. 50/50/35 rest

Atm I got a low DW-inf (High CS), and It works fine... imo SBs spec less LA and spec more Axe/CS..
 
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Urgat Rip-Eye

Guest
Originally posted by Naveh
imo SBs spec less LA and spec more Axe/CS..

A mid using two weapons without speccing high LA is gimping himself.

For two reasons...


1 - Weapon damage when mids duel wield is halved. Then has a small bonus (10% + 1%/2 LA spec) damage added to each hand.

So a SB with no LA, does 60% damage with both hands.

2 - LA spec acts as the damage varience controller for the left axe.

So swinging a LA with low LA spec, is like swinging a main hand with low mainhand spec. Varience on offhand with low LA is awful.


Mid duel wielders HAVE to spec high LA if they want to get any benefit at all from two weapons.

Which is totaly opposite of alb/hib duel wield. there it is just extra damage for nothing.

Silly... should all be same IMO.
 
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leviathane

Guest
infy to be overpowered with red con buffs,
ns to have some kick ass ra's when higher rr,
or sb to be...umm.. look kewl with 2h weps :m00:
 
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Damon_D

Guest
Originally posted by Naveh
Only thing that would happen is.. more Mercfils.. 50/50/35 rest

Atm I got a low DW-inf (High CS), and It works fine... imo SBs spec less LA and spec more Axe/CS..


What Urgat said..to bad for us we cant spec LA low and dual wield , but then again we could just use the UBER 2 Hander and then /release uber fast.....
 
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old.k70

Guest
I do not think that Shadowblades are underpowered. I just truly believe that both Infiltrators and Nightshades are overpowered.
 
S

Silenzio

Guest
mmm

ive both infil n sb...

and enjoy each ov em...

think is just a matter ov spec n luck :)


in the last mmm4 month im running arround unbuffec cuz i like it :)

if my enemys r more than one i get nullified fast.... but

1vs1 is fun to me :)

with my sb ive killed higer rr infil than me...
(to not talk ov thos moron horde ov low rr dw infil hahha)
im soulblade spec... and kinda Love 2h pa but after CD i allways swap to 1h+la... 3 poison better than one ;P lesser evade chances for him n fast hitting on an allready heavy damaged target ;P

with inf... i've to avoid crit mainly... but her i play with all the weapon n 3 poison or more...

again i dont fine any ov thos to under or overpowered...

well enjoyable only matter is to find some soloer to fight n not be insta ganked :)
 
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Dorin

Guest
anyone who played a fully buffed ns or sb then played an infil knows the difference. In my oppinion its easier to kill with an infiltrator, easier to make a good stealther grp (just get a mincer and you can wtfpwn soooo easily) so for me its a better class, dragonfang is just too strong as i dont have to throw away poison, stealh or cs for it.
 
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Talen

Guest
Originally posted by umilard
I agree with durgi in alot of ways.. I think that atm the sb is the weakest of the three assassins and infil is the strongest.. (at high rr i would say nighthade is as good or maybe even better tho).

It used to be the other way around, when shadowzerkers just ran out of stealth and spammed styles and still won. I do feel that the nerf of sbs was justified, but maybe they nerfed them abit too much or maybe the other realms assassins should be "adjusted".

And personally i think that CD/BS should be the only stunstyle avaible to assassins, assassins _should_ have to land PA to win fights against tankclasses/hybrids. Remove the other stuns and boost CD abit (making it harder to parry/block/evade).

And yes, i do think assassins should be able to beat pure tanks, if they do everything right and have a bit of luck. It shouldn't be easy tho, and it isn't, a wellplayed tank can be very lethal. The real downside for the tank is no bonus to hit on slam tho, they should get bonus to hit imo.

Assassins should be one of those classes that you have to play very well to master, since assassin have one of the biggest things in favour of them, the element of surprice.. It makes a hell of a difference to fight an enemy when you isn't prepared for it, i know, i have the same advantage against nonstealthers with my minstrel and _alot_ of my solo kills i win simply becouse enemies panic / isn't ready.

oh, and i don't think durgi is retired, atleast not completety, saw him kill someone in sauvage the other day ;> Think he's just lazy when it comes to updating his sig ;>

Heh... Nightshades aren't bad at all, in fact the one I played earlier performed better then my infil due to the power of conc haste... A nightshade with end regen + full buffs = a force to be reckoned with if you add AP3 into the calculation
 
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old.Bubble

Guest
When DAOC was first released- Shadowblade - PA and remain stealthed as very overpowered.

Assasin booost patch- Infilitrator sooo meny points :p

When RA's were introduced- Shadowblade SZ or 5spec with 3k hps with IP and buffs were hard to kill- even with Dragonfang

When IP was taken away- All the same

When LA was nerfed - At RR6+ = NS At RR1 = Inf, Shadowblades are lacking a Dex/quickness debuff which imho would balance the assasins.


Hopefully you guys will think what i have said is true and not favored
 
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Silenzio

Guest
Originally posted by Dorin
anyone who played a fully buffed ns or sb then played an infil knows the difference. In my oppinion its easier to kill with an infiltrator, easier to make a good stealther grp (just get a mincer and you can wtfpwn soooo easily) so for me its a better class, dragonfang is just too strong as i dont have to throw away poison, stealh or cs for it.



mmm Diamondback?

aye tnx god most ov the ns r so lazy anytime spammer that does not use it :)
 
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Azal

Guest
Originally posted by old.Bubble
When DAOC was first released- Shadowblade - PA and remain stealthed as very overpowered.

Hopefully you guys will think what i have said is true and not favored

The glaring problem there is that any assassin could do that, was by no means restricted to SB only. Just that as a general rule NS/Inf typically went for faster weapons so had less chance to do it.

So don't make it out like it was something only SB had that made only them overpowered for using it :p
 
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cougar-

Guest
who cares about 0.3 spec pts or 3 longer stun when one of the classes need to run for 20 min and 1 of em walk right out in the action.
 

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