The art of building guild RvR groups

[Darksbane]

TP was originally set out to be a solid RvR guild which aimed to run 2 balanced grps daily. As things shaped out over the months, things did not turn out to be how i first imagined it would. For mebe 2 month we were running with 2fg ( still remember the first BW whine ). The guild just seemed to keep growing and growing, Friend of Friend wants to join the guild etc etc. The 2fg Daily RvR started to drift away and even with 30 ppl online it was becoming a struggle to get 1fg out!. It was been left to GMs/Officers to organise the groups, if certain figures werent in the group it often fell to peices rather quickly or not get started at all. This wenton for quite some time and about 2 or 3 month before TOA was released a semi fixed group had been formed, this was by no means intentional, i retired my Paladin and started on sorc, which made life much easier for me and others. Wub,Theodoric,Astalis and myself just seemed to be grouping everyday, All loggin on usualy within 30 mins of each other, We used to fill the remaining 4 slots with classes we needed to run Determination Grp setup.

Then came TOA, We got lucky and got in front of the general population, thanks to Mistars early raids, and Dreams Higher ML raids We hit ml10 before most ppl in the guild, had our artifacts aquired, Some complaints were made that we had rushed off and left the guild behind, but i see it like this, if i put the time in and effort to get it done and others dont its not my fault. Some people play more than others, if a guild went by the slowest member we would all be still ML1.

With ppl finishing TOA before others new people were grouping with us more and more and this as now turned into a Almost fixed group. This has already started causing some problems, already guildies have complained and even 1 of the GMs has also complained. This however will not stop the group we are now running, as said before and will be said again countless times, This game is about fun. Our group is getting better and better at working together and im proud of it. This is by no means we want to be l33t roxor shit. But to have fun = winning. Some fights are much fun even when you loose, but to loose everytime is not fun.

There are more than enough members in TP to form a 2nd group if people would actually do it, i know some try but its in vain sometimes. So maybe things will work out fine, but only time will tell.

RvR has improved a hell of a lot for our guild, Voice comms boost the efficency of any group imo, add experienced players to the mixx and you have the start of a winning combo.

Would i recomend Guilds to run fixed groups?? Will give you a answer when i find out myself

 

[Exioce]

Group started at 1800cet, slap ppl on IRC until we had a decent group, taking ppl we know from MTK if not enough guildies are online, get voicecom sorted then start the fun

 

[vintervargen]

alb/exc seems to be such a nice place.

 

[Flimgoblin]

I guess it comes down to whether you're being inclusive or exclusive.

A guild fixed RvR group is effectively a "first 8" for your guild - it's exclusive by its nature of being fixed, if you're not in the group you're not in the group - it might be you'll get invited along if someone's not there, but since it's fixed you're not there. For those that are in it it's the best way to make a powerful RvR group, people learn to work together well, you'll probably rearrange classes to make it better (see darksbane rolling his sorc) and you'll gank a lot better.

If you're being inclusive then the guild RvR will allow just about everyone to come along - someone only has a level 40 smite cleric? "sure they can come along, we'll fit them in somehow". Everyone gets a chance to play, this generally means more than 1fg in RvR which will get you grumbled at you won't be as tight or as organised as the exclusives as you won't be playing with the same people all the time, heck some people might not RvR more than twice a month - naturally they're not going to be quite as fast on the ball or know as instinctively what to do. Also the group makeup will change a lot so again it's different people with different classes so you have to learn what your tactics are each time you go out.

I'd say the first type is changing the people to fit the group - you aim for a good group and you take the people that can play regularly that have the right classes (you might have them roll new classes to fit in).

The other way is changing the group to fit the people - what we only have one cleric and 5 sorcerers? guess we have a cleric and sorc group tonight.

Now HG are almost entirely the second type - but that's not to say there isn't any exclusivity at all - e.g. I mention us making a first group that has a vague chance of surviving - we pick some people above others to make a better group....

You'll find a lot of it comes down to the personalities in the guild - both those leading and those following whether your guild falls more towards being inclusive or exclusive. If everyone feels similarly you'll be ok - if some people want to have an exclusive group and others want everyone to be involved then you'll have problems.

Smaller guilds get around that by only having enough people in the guild so that everyone gets to join in that's in the guild - i.e. your exclusive group is the guild, so there's less ill will (though if you're too obvious about how exclusive your group/guild is you'll have friction with the rest of the realm)

Anyway enough gibbering pseudo-psychology from me for one post

 

[rezzi rezzzalot]

Fing you didnt mention our latenight groups with your smitecleric in it :wub:

 

[ceixava]

someone gets me ingame from irc

we go to emain or odins

cougar twoshots me

i log

 

[Flimgoblin]

Fing you didnt mention our latenight groups with your smitecleric in it :wub:

that's just individual stuff we have stealthers that like to go to emain and get stealthzerged for example. It's not really an all of HG thing

Half of Smite Club is usually HG - it's an exclusive group I guess but more due to it being daft than to "pwn"

 

[Galerrard]

Much of what Magmatic says is true. And not meaning to drag stuff up, but drawing from personal experience is the easiest part.

The fixed group (FG) was the prime factor in instigating TBs split. It is impossible IMO for a long standing guild to evolve into running a fixed group without causing huge problems, division and resentment among its established membership.

The key problems with fixed groups in a mixed Guild, from my experience:-

- Guilds only have a handful of motivators, if these all stick to one group its difficult to keep others involved. Not everyone is a leader.
- the reluctance of these FG members to participate in other "random" guild groups, or even login at times, when that FG is not running.
- the creation of a clique within a guild
- the death of /gu as /g and /irc are only needed
- reduction in other guild events, pve, keep raids etc
- too much focus on RPs earner per hour
- demotivation of casual player base

The benefits :-

- reputation growth in other realms, though at the expense often of your own guildmates
- much higher success and win ratio, and thus more "fun"
- higher RPs for the individuals and the guild

If you establish a guild with running a fixed group as part of its constitution then it seems to work, and work well, as everyone knows where they stand, and is one of the reasons why NO is successful whereas TB was not. And I have a huge amount of respect for those involved in NO.

What is very difficult to reconcile is the extreme polarity of views between those "included" and those "excluded". It creates such passionate feelings in both camps that rational discussion/actions almost disappear. Even now it takes a deep breathe and quite a leap of understanding for many people on either side to accept the views of the other as being in the least bit reasonable.

I'd recommend against fixed groups in a mixed guild, the strain of trying to keep other guild members happy drove me to quit (a huge mistake, and my only regret in 2 years of DAOC). It cost me the guild that we all worked so hard to create and a hell of a lot of great friends.

 

[Puppet]

I loved grouping with Galer; was much fun to see Galer truesight out all those little freaks with daggers they wanted to point in my heart :wub:

 

[Filip]

before toa arrived HB was trying a new path...

Fixed groupes on certain days ...

means .. on a monday we migth have 1 group ... ppl sign up for this monday and has to be there on the given time ..

then on a friday maybee allso a fixed group .. which is not dependant of the monday group .. maybee a few ppl sign up for both groups .. but thats fine ..

etc etc .. plan was to fill each day of the week so we got a "fixed" group every day .. but with different members ... to bad toa came and ruined it

Filip

Theurg in HB

 

[Galerrard]

One point I will make is that the DAOC group set up, especially in Albion, drives you to such a strictly defined group structure to be as effective as possible (or close to) that fixed classes are virtually a necessity, then you are already 1/2 way down the road to a fixed group.

The disdain with which anyone running with more than 1fg together were treated at one point just exascerbated this.

Change the group size to 12 or so and you would soon alleviate some of the problems IMO but that will never happen.

Oh and Puppy, I miss you too - nothing beats the original TB gimp groups for outright RvR fun

 

[yaruar]

If you're being inclusive then the guild RvR will allow just about everyone to come along - someone only has a level 40 smite cleric? "sure they can come along, we'll fit them in somehow".

It's a shame the GoV fell apart and everyone jumped ship, on the odd occasion we used to RvR that was always our philospohy (as you well know )

These days it's hard, new guild has enough players to RvR, but not enough at the same time and we are severely lacking key classes such as healers which means little or no RvR.

I didn't RvR much in the past, but these days the best I get is realm defence or someone takes pity on my poor thane arse at MTK emain, or I run out grouped with my bot and die to stealthers before I hit MMG and go back to TOA to hunt scrolls.

Back in the day though with GoV the policy was everyone who wanted to join could. Sometimes we had 4 players sometimes we had 2fg of mixed players (mixed classes and levels) usually we'd get rolled by hib caster groups though

We never ran in emain though, no point in those days, we used to do odin's and if that was too zergy or gank group ruled we'd go play with you in HW to see if smite clerics or thanes would win the day!

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

As Galerrard says, in a mixed guild, I'd recommend against fixed groups... Its impossible to keep everyone thats not in 'the fixed group(s)' happy...

The reason for this is simple, when you get to the point that you want a fixed group, you already decided for what reason you want to play... The reason then isnt just to have fun, but its to win... When I look at the NO group, yes we can have fun if we lose, but if we only lose (or lose most of the time)? We'd no longer have fun... We play to win...

In the 'old days', midgard and hibernia didnt run as much in 'perfect' groups, so it was easier to get away with groups that had only 1 cleric, no speed, no mez, etc... Currently if you want to do well in rvr, then you either need larger numbers (then group setup isnt 'that' important) or have a balanced group that knows how to play well...

Also in the 'old days', when I look at myself, I played for fun, heck, below rr5 I even 'zerged' with the rest of the albs Killing a lot (no matter how) was fun, heck I was fire, and fire looked cool

Just as time passed, I wanted more satisfaction from my kills (hence fg vs fg), and didnt enjoy free rps anymore... Having fun with just running about & killing was no longer an option, this was also around the time other realm groups became stronger and stronger...

At this time we started forming 'balanced' groups as much as possible, which eventually lead to a fixed group, which lead to hate, and hate leads to angre, bla bla bla

Anyways, it wasnt just the fixed group that lead to NO splitting off TB, some other factors added to this... But the agro generated within the guild towards me & sun for pushing towards the fixed group was one of the major factors to leave...

 

[[e]]

Imo, make fixed grps with ppl that are on equal experience, same ambition and who play for the same reasons.
If this is not possible then tbh any class/person is fine, since you will go out and be rps-cow for one of the grps that meet the criteria above =)

So set a goal, play for fun, or play to win. The guildies should understand the difference between business and pleasure, if not there are other guilds that may be better for them. With many ppl it's impossible to keep everybody happy, and i think its up to every individual to make the most out of daoc for themselves without constant "help".

Still I think that sometimes, every other sunday or so, take the "n00bs" out for a spin in emain

 

[PJS]

mincer + lvl 10 croc tear ring + /stick ? :worthy:

 

[Parlain]

wheres the wub :<

wub :wub: for gwal

On the more serious note I used to form groups in two ways

If I was forming an FC group I'd see how many ppl were online and not otherwise engaged and then find a sorc first before I even bothered to sort the rest of the group.

Afterwards, I'd build the group to a certain specification in a cerrtain order, usually sorc 2 clerics pala and mincer and then work out what was going to fill the last three spots, mostly mercs sometimes tried a caba,a wizzy, a theurg or Arcthic on Scout

Usually places would be filled from the guild ranks on a reasonably fair basis of first come first serve altho I did have favourites (and be honest given the choice who wouldn't want Noret in grp!)

If there weren't enough for a full FC grp or one was up I'd just start PM'ing people I had fun with in the past and gather a collection of my friends on the same template.

The second group formation happened occasionally when all the officers of FC were going to play on a certain night; we'd have a fixed grp ready and sorted a couple of days before and set a time to join up and play. This led to some antagonism within the guild as it was seen as having a "first elite 8" but honestly it's just because we'd like to play together as an old skool group occasionally in nostalgia of the old days where Strondor was main mezzer

Honestly I can say that the fixed grp would usually be the most successful but it does break guild unity into pieces if over utilised; imo the best way to form a grp is to have a set template in mind and recruit people you know can fill the roles with a degree of skill.

 

[Asha]

imo the best way to form a grp is to have a set template in mind and recruit people you know can fill the roles with a degree of skill.

and people understand that they may not always have a place in every gg and who will be reasonably self-sufficient in finding another group or starting one

 

[Ambulance]

imo the best way to form a grp is to have a set template in mind and recruit people you know can fill the roles with a degree of skill.

yep and stick to it

Playing fixed group around any decent template is a big % to any succesfull rvr, even after a few weeks playing you can pretty much see how much difference it makes.

 

[old.Sko]

Point taken =D
As of now, we're running fixed group, taking friends in when someone logs/cannot come. This produces rather strange setups sometimes - like 2xbard, 2xdruid animist mana eld hero bm, but surprisingly they work most of the time =D
In bc i remember things were on first come-first served basis, taking people of required classes out from guild if no guildie on, and if people couldnt get balanced second group going, we just made "add" group so they dont spend time defending mtk =D

 

[Belomar]

To sum things up, it appears there are two kinds of RvR guilds here: those that are built around a single, fixed group (like AD, JH, and NO), and those that don't have fixed groups per se (like NP, FC, and BF). It's not clear which of these two are superior, if any; no one can dispute that NP is at least as efficient as any other RvR guild out there, even if their group setup is not necessarily fixed. In fact, I would argue that the notion of a "guild" is not at all important for the first category, since it is the group and not the guild that is important, except for administrative (easing group setup through a common chat channel -- /gu) and PR (common guild emblem, even if the trend among gank groups is to skip emblems and get your own color scheme anyway) reasons. Thus, it seems to me that the second category (to which FC, NP, and BF belongs) is a slightly more mature version of an RvR guild, where the aim is rather to build a broad base of experienced RvR players (which is also more redundant to people leaving than fixed groups, where a single departure might spell doom for the whole group).

 

[Silverblast]

Have a group setup with the same people every time. Not necessarily the same 8 people every run, but to build teamwork the people should understand each others styles, so have a relativley small amount of people rvring with each other when possible in a single group, not more.. First come first served btw.

 

[liloe]

yes indeed, this is a nice post so I'll add my impressions. Usually some ppl in TD want to RvR and tell their opinion on /gu so mostly it comes to ask which classes are needed. Always in ofc is bard+druid, but we're not so strict about the rest. It happens to run bard, druid, and 6 mages. You just need to learn to play well with others and wigh good tactics suxh a setup CAN win. Well ToA has made some ppl camp around in the water, so sometimes we just fill up with other ppl (but then we look more careful ofc, they're not guildies afet all ). Usually the rule is lvl 50, but it happened to take some lower chat out to RvR to get him some RA (well....not often though, maybe 2-3 times). TD is pretty caster-heavy and we also got a good amount of druids/bards, so we have to work with what we have (often enough leaving us without guard), but we tend to take "random" guildies instead of the "ideal" char for the spot. As for the communication, we're using Team Speak and it works very well and helps a lot. If we have the ppl, we do the hib "mage fotm" but if not, well magepower =) and I can say it works well (Eso + Elwizardo the big artilleries ).

If we have more than a fg, it depends on the situation. Sometimes the "leftovers" join other groups or if they have a bard they tag along.

Personally I like to make a nice group and kick as many enemies as possible, but if a group turns out to be bad, well, I got a too soft heart to tell ppl what I think and just stay =) as it takes a lot of time to really piss me off (and others are most likely pissed sooner than me ).


P.S. all words in "" are not to be seen as rude...I just didn't know how to say it in another way =)

P.P.S please don't destroy this nice post with useless whining

 

[Flimgoblin]

/waves magic wand of extinguishing.

Any comments on the wand's effects - pm me.

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

An idea which I had in mind when facing the rvr group-creation problems was to create a 'fixed core' for certain evenings, the fixed core would have a leader (officer of the guild), and the 'needed' classes for any successfull rvr group...

For albs this would most definitly be:
1 Minstrel
1 Sorcerer
2 Clerics

Then make sure this 'core' is online from x till x on x days...

Because its easier to fill the other 4 spots in that 'group' then it is to fill the important spots (e.g. core)... And if your short on someone, again easier to fill those spots with outside-guild...

The major advantage I saw in fixed groups is that people that are in it commit themselves to certain playtime... There's nothing worse then spending an hour getting a group together, only to hear that the sorc only had 1 hour and has to leave... And then repeat this each night...