The art of building guild RvR groups

[Belomar]

This is a post I've been meaning to write for a while now, simply because it is an issue I, as a co-GM of SS, have come across time and time again when trying to organize guild RvR, and I think it would be valuable to get the input from other DAoC guilds, both RvR as well as hybrid RvR/PvE guilds (like SS). The question is simply: How do you build your RvR groups in a "fair" manner and what do you do if you are lacking a required/desired class, or you simply have too many people who want to RvR at a given time?

SS has experimented with a lot of different schemes during the past, ranging from joint guild RvR at specific times during the evening and led by a captain (people PM the captain, who then tries to build a number of reasonably balanced groups), to a web-based signup event calendar (where a specific group template is designed by the event organizer and people with the appropriate classes can sign up). We have also had semi-fixed RvR groups consisting of the same people who meet at specific times during the week to RvR together. As a PvE/RvR guild, the issue we are dealing with is that we are (or try to be) a fair and "democratic" guild giving everyone the chance to participate in guild RvR. Therefore, we have had a "first come first served" policy for group signups. We don't tell people they are not welcome and pick someone more experienced in favor of a newcomer, and the only requirements we have instated in the past are level and class requirements (ranging from the basic "speed + heals" rule to ), never based on RR, equipment, or (more recently) ML.

It would be interesting to see how different guilds handle this aspect, both from the RvR guilds (which, I imagine, build groups with a very firm hand) as well has the hybrid guilds. What happens to those who don't fit into the current group and still want to RvR (especially if all they have is a single L50 of a less-than-desired class and no time to roll another)?

Please leave your flames at the door.

 

[Tharion]

Good post, hope to see some contructive answers.

 

[stubbe]

Usually we've got a pretty good idea when we've got enough ppl home from work to build a GG. Then someone, usually Medde or Xanatea, starts slapping the ppl with classes needed, first to reply wins. We're a quite small guild so we hardly ever have problems with too many ppl, more like the other way around. Set template up to a point (i.e always 3 healers and a shaman) rest is what we have online.

 

[Urme the Legend]

[Guild] Ardamel: "Let's do some guild RvR guys?"
[Guild] Ardamel: "Come to svasud and we will see how many we are."
2min later.
[Guild] Random: "Any spots free in RvR group for a healer?"
Ardamel does a /bg count.
12 people in the Battlegroup
[Guild] Ardamel: "Yes we got 238 spots left! Come svasud!"

Hehe..
I actually wrote "An Alb" instead of Ardamel first but I think people would get upset then .. and joking with ourself is legal

Well in FoM we aren't after "perfect" groups etc.. usually fix groups with the people we have. And we aren't that active in RvR atm since TOA.. we weren't before TOA either actually... some times we set a date/time on the forum and let people sign-up.

Had a 1fg guild on hib/pryd that played together each night before TOA.. but we were always missing someone.. and had to take in some random dude.. and things went bad

 

[Fana]

Interesting really. We are facing the same problems in AB atm. We have only recently started to rvr again after ToA (not that we are "done" with ToA yet by any means, but we felt we needed some rvr after all the pve). Our guild members vary alot in their rvr experience, knowledge and interest, so building groups can be a difficult process. Neither are we a very big guild - we have about 10-15 ppl online most nights and only 2 active pac healers (and one of them works alot etc).

We have set up a regular group that are to rvr 2 evenings each week - the members are not supposed to shift to much from time to time so that the group learns to work togheter etc. Nevertheless we will try to rotate a couple of the spots so that everyone has a chanse to do guild rvr.
This way some of the less desirable rvr classes can still get to rvr, as long as the core of the group stays viable (2+ healers and a shammy that know how to play togheter etc).
Other than that we will probably do more rvr as our characters get done with their trials and artifacts etc - and as the focus shifts from ToA to emain i imagine we will have the manpower to field at least semi-functional groups most evenings

We have not really discussed if we will ever run with more than 1 grp at a time (as this is so frowned upon in mid). But i imagine we would if there was interest enough to build a second group that didnt just provide free rp's for the enemy (need some key classes after all, and as said we lack active healers etc).

 

[Sheph]

Not often i reply in these threads... but since this is important for my gameplay i will do.

First you have to ask the guild: play to win or play for fun ?

Play to win:
Make an inguild set group. Best possible setup. Same people every day. Get ventrillo. Roam emain or odin.

Play for fun:
Make a balanced fg. Make rest tag along on croc ring in 2nd or more groups. Port odin. Go HMG. Deploy 3 stealthers there and wipe all enemy stealthers. Main force go take a keep. Make nice doors. Claim it. Then either go gank Hibs bein reported by your stealthers or take another keep. Make an extra guild for your buffbots and claim with it. 2 keeps claimed + info from stealthers will give lots of fun. Make every1 close their IRC too... ie ignore eventual whine. Keep your main force intact at all times and dont camp the keeps. Camping makes people tired and restless. Roam with your main force and listen to your stealthers.
If u happen to open DF when takin the keeps EVERY1 rushes there and gank whatever you find.
Whatever happens dont divide your forces. Keep them together. Rezz stealthers etc. Makes u more of a family.
If some RVR guild begins to attack you and eventually kill you; release fast. Go back to keep. RvR guilds usually move in 1fg and have a hard time killin you if u manage to get back into the keep.

The decision of choice of gameplay is the hard part. You will need every1 to agree.

Last. As a co-GM u need to know one thing. It is NOT you responsibility to make the game fun for others. Its their own responsibility. You can help and coordinate. Nothing more.

 

[rezzi rezzzalot]

Thanks for starting this poste
Our guild is a hybrid guild aswell and keeping everyone happy all the time be it pve or rvr isnt easy.
Before TOA we had 1 balanced gg running everynight as a minimum and 2 if there were enough people on.
Although we still arent in rvr that much at the moment because of the large amount of things that still needs to be done in TOA.
I have been thinking alot lately how to streamline rvrgroups after TOA so it can be fun for all who want to rvr be it more experienced players or people that are new to rvr or have less desirable groupcharacters.
With two clerics and speed as the base of the group the total outcome will probably be a mix of a alot of things.
A weekly guild rvrnight, more or less fixed rvr group(s), mixed rvrgroups where more experienced players go and group with people that have less experience or less desirable group characters are amongst all this.

 

[Krane]

On my behalf i have been building guildgrps in HB, BF and GOL in the past.

HB at start was a very small guild..only a handfull of ppl who played every night...was nothing to build there, played with same ppl daily.
After the big growth we had guild rvr, everyone in cg, 1 leader (GM or other officer) making grps from what we had. Usually ended up with 2-3 fairly balanced grps.

BF was very different, there i was aiming for quality not quantity rvr, i had a specific setup in my mind which i wanted to play with so i built the grp only in that direction. If guildee came online he instantly got spot of a non guildee in grp, but that was told in advance to the non guilded grpmember. Also rvr skill was a very determining factor, albion as a realm is big, but the well playing rvr population is rather small imo, after 2 years of rvr you could tell from names who is worth an invite and whos not. I kicked several random ppl out of grps without any kind of hesitation when he/she held the grp back. Some ppl hated me after, others understood. I did not care. It was the top alb grp of server for a while..

GOL was between these 2. Sometimes we did 2 fg sometimes we did 1 fg. I mostly rvr-ed with our pre built sorc debuff setup in GOL, while sometimes we joined up with outlaw and co (whome believe or not didnt zerg that much pre TOA) to counter enemy 3-4 fg zergs.

So what to do? Well depends on what your guild is about.

If u want quality rvr, imo u have to be harsh with unskilled or inexperienced ppl. If u c it from the perspective of the grp, the "n00b" is ruining the fun and hard work of the other 7 ppl in grp with his n00bishness. Non retarded ppl usually understood it. Also u need a small guild with very active members.

If u have a not fully rvr oriented, bigger sized guild, than u have to "take care" about more ppl whom are wanting to have fun (sometimes even 30-40 back in hb). Making an elite fg is not an option there and only generates hate. Fixed grps could be an option also, we had that at the very start in GOL and it worked nicely. The easiest option is just to gather all and run as a guild ofc...but than u get the zerg whines. Which ofc u can decide to care about or not. Its your and your guilds freetime after all..=)

 

[rezzi rezzzalot]

Yes hardest part in a hybrid guild is to establish the play to win or play for fun part.
Aslong as guildies respect each other as in to what they like and accept the fact there is a time and place for everything, it should not be causing alot of problems.
This however takes alot of communication and understanding from all.
Sometimes a gg with the best possible groupsetup is going out there. Other times a less ideal setup.
It gets more complex however when some people see winning and fun as one and the same thing.
Im one of them if im honest but i just accept i cant win all the time.
Gms and officers can only try to provide all stuff people want to do in a guild and help create a nice atmosfere.
This doenst release people from their own responsability however.

 

[Belomar]

Usually we've got a pretty good idea when we've got enough ppl home from work to build a GG. Then someone, usually Medde or Xanatea, starts slapping the ppl with classes needed, first to reply wins. We're a quite small guild so we hardly ever have problems with too many ppl, more like the other way around. Set template up to a point (i.e always 3 healers and a shaman) rest is what we have online.

Interesting viewpoint from a dedicated RvR guild, and reasonably much what I expected. However, what happens to people who play classes that are no longer desirable at a specific point in the game? For instance, I imagine skalds do not have the given position they used to have in an NP group. Is this where a well-functioning guild PL mechanism comes into play?

 

[rure]

BoB runs with the same classes every night and we start the same time every night. Then its pretty much first comes first served. The others can just fo It helps being a small guild to solve this kind of troubles, since its pretty much the tanks that we got an excessive amount of. We got 3 active tanks, I think, for 2 tank spots. If someone is missing we bug our dear alliance to replace him.

 

[Belomar]

Last. As a co-GM u need to know one thing. It is NOT you responsibility to make the game fun for others. Its their own responsibility. You can help and coordinate. Nothing more.

Yes, this is a given, but as everyone knows, there are two kinds of people in DAoC: those who make things happen, and those who wait for the other kind to make things happen. There is nothing wrong with either kind, and they can be equally much worth to the guild in different ways, but you really need enough of the first kind in order to have a well-functioning guild. As a GM, you're expected to be of the first kind, even if you hopefully surround yourself with equally competent officers to help you.

 

[vintervargen]

its a tough question for you since SS is that kid of mix-guild. in such a guild with alot of members there will always be those that are at the rvr side, and those at the pve side of the game.

its very hard to get these people play together, usally RvR experience (along with FH/IRC) makes peoples attitudes go vs the competition/leet/whining direction (dont we all remember how fun this game was before irc/bw? )

so my advice would be that dont try and 'force' all members to gather for some guild rvr, let those who want do their own race, and for the other that want to go rvr for the experience (and thus not the RPs) do "the usual SS zerg" . the croc ring comes in handy at that point.

ps. some people might think that others that dont want to 'help' the guild with an RvR event because, for example, they dont want to move with more then 1FG, should'nt be in the guild. but for me a guild doesn't have to work perfect in all aspects to be a good and happy guild

 

[rezzi rezzzalot]

Yes, this is a given, but as everyone knows, there are two kinds of people in DAoC: those who make things happen, and those who wait for the other kind to make things happen. There is nothing wrong with either kind, and they can be equally much worth to the guild in different ways, but you really need enough of the first kind in order to have a well-functioning guild. As a GM, you're expected to be of the first kind, even if you hopefully surround yourself with equally competent officers to help you.

Hear Hear

 

[Runolas]

Well hmm...Urme...hmm...we have done a little more than that

Belomar I think that SS in many ways are a bit similar to FoM. We are imho what you refer to as a Hybrid RvR/PvE guild. ToA however have gravely put a stopper for organized RvR in our guild. As of lately I think most play RvR during Keep attacks in Midgard, as a stealther or the Ardamel gathers random ppl and have some fun.

However before ToA we had steady RvR sessions going from November that I organized twice a week - using 2fg's. There was a bit of whine of this on irc etc, but I don't give a crap. It worked imho great, ofc we had ups and downs, but in general we had a shit load of fun for everyone involved - at least I had. The hunts would last from 18.00-23.00 (although we often had to w8 1 hour before we actually got going) and our weekly rp was bumped from 900k -> 1.5mill.

What I found worked the best was to make fixed grp's for each session allowing everyone in the guild a chance to partisipate. I did/do try to optimize the grp without beeing to leet. On our forum I would put up what classes I needed in each grp about a week b4 the session it self. The grp were roughly G1acMend,AugMend,Shaman,Skald,Det.Tank,DetTank,DetTank,Warrior and G2: PacMend,Augmend,Shaman,Skald,RM,SM,SM,Warrior. Then ppl would apply and I know what classes each have and I shuffeled arround with ppl. Ofc we have run with Thanes, Hunters and SB in grp, but I tried to optimize the grp's to fit our playerbase the best. We have a shitload of Warriors in the guild, thus we sometimes ended up with 4 of them...hehe.

The biggest challenge with running RvR session is to find ppl willing to play support classes. Most ppl want to play a class that inflict dmg, and i did end up with more or less "forcing" ppl to play suport char (at least that is how I felt), cuz I knew we would not last long with only one healer in a grp. It did make me feel a bit sad and I was a bit worried in the beginning that ppl would not show up if that meant playing a support class. However they did for the most part show up .

We use Ventril for communication and the differnece is huge in how organized the grp's work. I would strongly recomend using it.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

we pretty much run a fixed setup, with same class structure everynight.
but we dont mind trying 'gimped' , like non totally fotm setups really. we agree to be on at a set time usually via an IRC channel and people sign up for positions on there. due to the size of our guild it is often the same people.

 

[stubbe]

Interesting viewpoint from a dedicated RvR guild, and reasonably much what I expected. However, what happens to people who play classes that are no longer desirable at a specific point in the game? For instance, I imagine skalds do not have the given position they used to have in an NP group. Is this where a well-functioning guild PL mechanism comes into play?

A few ppl have SMs or Healers. PL in Modernagrav supports alot of groups with a common list etc. PLing in Midgard is very easy without a set guild FG to help you.

And yes, as a general rule we don't accept groupmembers that are of a non-desireable class. May seem cruel but it's what it takes to stay on top. Good thing I'm a healer, would surprise me if we ever became obsolete

 

[Belomar]

Without dredging up too much bad karma from the past, I know that NO has run in their ice wizz group a good while, even before NO was born and you were all in TB (I also remember that you ran in a merc group a while). How much aggro did this fixed setup (i.e. sort of a guild with a guild thing) generate? How did you deal with people outside of the lucky eight wanting to participate, and what happened when they were denied invite? Or when one of the normal eight were away and could not participate?

Again, I don't want to dig up bad things from the past, I am simply curious how to strike a balance between fixed groups within a guild and "free-for-all" guild RvR. I am sure Krane, who ran a fixed debuff group inside GoL, could comment too? I know that we have had SS members complaining about "elitism" and similar in the past, and this is very hard to handle (in my experience).

 

[Belomar]

And yes, as a general rule we don't accept groupmembers that are of a non-desireable class.

Incidentially, I think it's time you take Skalds back into favor, I don't like Teza running around in shade form and abusing FZ on me when I am trying to solo.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

A few ppl have SMs or Healers. PL in Modernagrav supports alot of groups with a common list etc. PLing in Midgard is very easy without a set guild FG to help you.

And yes, as a general rule we don't accept groupmembers that are of a non-desireable class. May seem cruel but it's what it takes to stay on top. Good thing I'm a healer, would surprise me if we ever became obsolete

same with cleric, although we are suckier than healer

 

[Asha]

Interesting viewpoint from a dedicated RvR guild, and reasonably much what I expected. However, what happens to people who play classes that are no longer desirable at a specific point in the game? For instance, I imagine skalds do not have the given position they used to have in an NP group. Is this where a well-functioning guild PL mechanism comes into play?

they reroll or find something else to do

it's nice to know krane was forming us, god how did we rvr w/o him..

 

[Javai]

Well I dunno what kind of guild we are other than 'closed' in the sense we only recruit people I (or one of the other long-time members) know well.

For rvr, it usually falls to me as GM to get any guild groups going although individuals quite often find places in other alliance groups. Since I primarily play my Sorc that's 2 out of 3 basics sorted (speed and cc). Then we like to ensure at least one cleric, after that its first come first served for rest of places. What I try to do is rather than force people to play classes or make people sit out is go to the rvr area most suited to our group, if we have weak set-up and/or low rr's we might try HW or look for a zerg to follow. If we had a solid group (pre-ToA) we went Odin's or Emain.

We do sometimes have too many for one fg if thats the case sometimes we might ask people with stealther alts to form a stealth group so all can join in.

My philosophy is that I would rather die repeatedly with nice people than win every time with tossers

 

[Dorin]

How much aggro did this fixed setup (i.e. sort of a guild with a guild thing) generate? How did you deal with people outside of the lucky eight wanting to participate, and what happened when they were denied invite? Or when one of the normal eight were away and could not participate?

Seen that in hib as an outsider, the "lucky eight" partipicated in guild events (zerg raids, xping, item hunt etc), but didnt give a flying fuck when it came down for them to do something for the guild. Like 1-2 ppl were outsiders of the guild who were in the "roxor" grp (not guild members of the "guild", just mistar friend), when asked to form GG they didnt care... not that happened a lot. i didnt like that at all, after sometime they quited, wisest choice ever. Dont form a miniguild-in a guild, or be outsider in your own guild, pissess off others totally.
But different things happened like: helped dude with lvling epic etc, then after 50 rdy to rvsr he just just quited, well you can imagen how annoyed ppl can be after such "hat-trick".

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

Well, in TB (my old guild ) we used to do 'pickup groups', we had a nasty habit of not having enough online for 2fg, and no one wanted to be in the 'gimp' group and didnt want to group with randoms... This often resulted in problems, also a huge problem we had was that no one wanted to stay online to 'wait' for a group...

We tried (and still do in New Order) to setup groups via IRC, in the topic we usually planned the next RvR session (which was often the next day)...

This eventually lead to the people that where often online, to form a semi fixed group at first (basicly it was fixed, just wasnt communicated as such towards the guild) and after that it was decided that since it was fixed, to communicate that towards the rest of the less active part of the guild ...

Anyways, the result of this is clear

The guilds feelings towards the fixed group where very mixed, some liked it, some didnt, some saw it as a good thing, some saw it as the spawn of satan...

In New Order we currently have one semi-fixed group, most players in it are fixed, but we sometimes swap certain members due to various reasons... We used to rotate clerics for example, which worked pretty well (now it might not be needed that much anymore)... Basicly we had someone decide who has a cleric spot...

We're a rather small guild now, a few friends that are either inactive or dont rvr a lot (or both), a hardcore group that plays a lot and basicly forms the core of the fixed group... Everyone that is in NO knows how the 'group' works...

We've thought about trying to see if we can get enough for a 2nd group, but before we do this we want someone designated as 'leader' for that group, so it would operate independant of the rest of the guild...

So for us currently in NO, its pretty much fixed... And from personal experience, having a fixed group in a mixed guild seems not to work, at least didnt for us... (Generated a lot of agro in the guild, even between GM's)

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

As for the agro generated, it was a lot... Basicly for our group to succeed, we needed a fair few of regular players, which didnt leave a lot of headroom for others... And the others that we did have room for where often filled by the same people due to them being online sooner/more often...

We tried to help others in the guild to setup groups, but couldnt participate, which in pratice only lead to a guild group (besides our ice group) on a few occasions, often in disaster too... They didnt want to zerg, and the group that was left didnt have enough experience with each other and in rvr to succeed in fg vs fg fights...

Basicly for me it seemed that we had to do everything for them, which (without trying to get too much of the still TB members to flame me) was true, basicly without me or Sunwolf in the group, the group wouldnt last longer then an hour... For whatever reasons...

 

[Kalba]

We have around 10ppl at the moment in groove so we are a relatively small guild, most people are very active and show up on right times so we can build good and working groups pretty easy.

Altough we´ve had some problems with 2 shamans which we have(me + Inwe)
and also with Fly(RM, played by me) and netcode as skald, since skald and RM are in for the same spot in a RvR group. Later on we just made a deal about certain RvR days, I play some Inwe plays others.

We havent yet figured out how to handle the "skald problem" or whatever you wish to call it but I think it´ll work out since the guild is small and people know each other.

In my old guild Tiwaz´s Emissaries there´s weekly RvR/PvE raids, and we run in emain with 1+fgs. I dont consider it "zerging" since having such an unbalanced setup (for example me with thane, gimpshammie Gama with mend + cave spec) we are less effective than a high realm rank, organized fg and if we meet one it´s not sure at all that we´ll win. (altho there´s much ph30r in us!)

The zerg whine comes mostly for several perfect group setup fg´s running together and giving the enemy no chance to win. (or for a gazillion mids/hibs/albs running together.

2 non balanced fg´s should be ok, if someone whines for that they havent really played well since a good full group has good chances to win

All zerg whine is based on the though:"This is useless since we dont stand a chance!"

[edit] Damn, this is most probably longest ranting I´ve ever written here

 

[Dorin]

As for the agro generated, it was a lot... Basicly for our group to succeed, we needed a fair few of regular players, which didnt leave a lot of headroom for others... And the others that we did have room for where often filled by the same people due to them being online sooner/more often...

We tried to help others in the guild to setup groups, but couldnt participate, which in pratice only lead to a guild group (besides our ice group) on a few occasions, often in disaster too... They didnt want to zerg, and the group that was left didnt have enough experience with each other and in rvr to succeed in fg vs fg fights...

Basicly for me it seemed that we had to do everything for them, which (without trying to get too much of the still TB members to flame me) was true, basicly without me or Sunwolf in the group, the group wouldnt last longer then an hour... For whatever reasons...

aye some ppl in daoc moan about not getting grp, not getting mls artifacts xp etc etc, but they dont wanna do anything for it expect hitting the accept button on the "xxx invited to his grp, you wish to join" tab and stick to the leader, kinda dislike that type.

 

[Flimgoblin]

HG is very much like KoP for our RvR

"play for fun"

Before ToA we'd get 1-2fg and head HW, we'd try and have the same speed in each group, and do our best to have the first group formed reasonably well set out with everything else in the second - by reasonable I mean a cleric who could heal (preferably two clerics), a minstrel and a paladin, but the other 4 spots or so would be fairly freeform.

Sometimes we'd head odins (if there wasn't much going on in HW or TP appeared with 3fg...) and get the odd good fight there.

Since ToA HW has been rather dead - and we've not RvRed anywhere near as much anyway thanks to doing lots of trials. Monday night we tried Odins Gate- wasn't too bad but we were a fairly gimpy setup (e.g. only the one cleric) and we kept meeting 2-3fg hibs and later on ML10/RR10 hibs... (see wabbit's post on casual/power gamer difference)

On the having to organise people - there are people in the guild that will sort out the groups/organise the RvR hunt (e.g. Lalia usually organises our monday night suicide runs) but there are also people that will need to be told where to go and what group to join - they'll do fine in RvR, they know how to play their characters... whether they know how best to play in RvR depends entirely on how many suicide runs we've dragged them on before.

Noone sticks and afks for the entirety of a hunt in HG (at least not without good reason and many apologies heh)

I guess HG lean more towards PvE than RvR but we are still probably a Hybrid guild...

We did RvR a reasonable amount before ToA, maybe not with fg+ but we had people in Hadrians Wall. We'd rarely end up in emain as a guild, far more likely to be defending benowyc than camping the mmg (though apparently if 2 HGers did that we were a 4fg zerg somehow... must learn how to cast that multiple Mirror spell ...)

 

[Jiggs]

well Hatji or Ialk could explain it better probably=) but basically i think their recruitment was based on that you'd be invited to guild if they could guarantee being able to offer you a spot in rvr group.

anyway that kinda prevented to many problems with anyone getting annoyed etc...since you'd normally have only 8-10 active guildies with the required classes active. But yea it did mean that if 1 or 2 people didn't play for awhile you could be in a jam and then normally people like reggy, aussie or herbal came and completed the group=)

anyways they did a good job and people like Gunnerr, Chuffy, Ialk and Hatji etc always poked the required people in irc to get online and go rvr=)

we had some good times=)

 

[Soazak]

only got 8 ppl in my guild

getting everyone online is the hardpart ;d