thanes (from the horses mouth)

[old.yaruar]

Looks like it's time to finally mothball my thane.... Was hoping they would sort it out, but apparantly we are competitive, although have no role and will never have a role in 8v8 rvr unless people actively choose to play non optimal groups...

from a conversation with I've been having with Mackey - mythics go between and person in charge of balance and the frontiers RvR expansion
.....................
Thanes are "competitve" in level 50 RvR. Thanes are not part of the uber gank group make up that many always aim for. And thanes never will be. I am sorry to say that, but as I explained in the report, the uber gank groups need utility, or pure DPS of one form or another. The thane will never be able to match the pure DPS of a specialist.

Outside of that, Thanes are not only a lot of fun, but are often extremely effective in RvR. Part of the trouble may be that the most hard core players out there generally don't like thanes since they are not part of the uber gank group make up, so we don't have as many hard core players playing them as we do other classes.

But from in game experiences (nightly) in RvR with a thane, they most certainly can compete. But that's not to say that we can't do more with them, I think we can and will. But I fear they will never be the class that most of the vocal people on the VNs want them to be.

 

[Lumikki]

Yes, thanes can compete in RvR. I usually solo with Lumi in odin's in the morning, and even without buffs I do fairly well. And if I had a bb, would be a whole different story.

xx

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Lumikki
Yes, thanes can compete in RvR. I usually solo with Lumi in odin's in the morning, and even without buffs I do fairly well. And if I had a bb, would be a whole different story.

xx

1on 1 we do ok. But it happens so rarely these days.

I stepped out into uppland last night and immediately got jumped on by two fully buffed stealthers, I rerely see anyone solo these days, last month I did meet a solo equal realm rank mincer in jamtland which was a fun fight though, but that is certainly not a typical experience.

I just found it interesting that mackeys official view is that thanes will never have a place in optimal 8 man RvR.

 

[Lumikki]

They won't, considering how the game is now.

Sad sad thing.

xx

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Lumikki
They won't, considering how the game is now.

Sad sad thing.

xx

biggest thing stopping thanes from getting into RvR groups is det and as we have no clue what the new RA system will be, we wont know wether thanes will be fixed or not.

They wont be as good a defensive tank as a warrior nor damage dealer as runnies/sm's/savages and zerkers. But if there was no det, they could play some useful role in RvR groups and could replace a warrior when there isnt one around. Mythic said there that they wont boost the speclines of the thane, they didnt speak about the RA line.
Allthough mothballing your thane might be the wise thing to do, there is a small possibility that with the new RA system things might be better for you.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Driwen
biggest thing stopping thanes from getting into RvR groups is det and as we have no clue what the new RA system will be, we wont know wether thanes will be fixed or not.

They wont be as good a defensive tank as a warrior nor damage dealer as runnies/sm's/savages and zerkers. But if there was no det, they could play some useful role in RvR groups and could replace a warrior when there isnt one around. Mythic said there that they wont boost the speclines of the thane, they didnt speak about the RA line.
Allthough mothballing your thane might be the wise thing to do, there is a small possibility that with the new RA system things might be better for you.

Mackey says they are looking at tweaking thanes although he is refusing to make any major changes or give them any utility of any form or raise their dps output which kind of leaves them second rate.
As for the det issue. it still doesn't counter the fact that for an optimal group there is no role for a thane even if they did have det, a warrior has better defence and both zerk and savage have better offence

 

[duact]

my thane is working as intended atm , strong potionbot at mtk

 

[Kallio]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
Mackey says they are looking at tweaking thanes although he is refusing to make any major changes or give them any utility of any form or raise their dps output which kind of leaves them second rate.
As for the det issue. it still doesn't counter the fact that for an optimal group there is no role for a thane even if they did have det, a warrior has better defence and both zerk and savage have better offence

Yeah, but the difference would be that thane wouldnt be a joke, they could be used, and not laughed at.

edit: Like that would ever happen

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
As for the det issue. it still doesn't counter the fact that for an optimal group there is no role for a thane even if they did have det, a warrior has better defence and both zerk and savage have better offence

warrior doesnt have much better shield defence and slightly better chance on hitting slam. The warrior does have better melee dps, but lacks any good range dps which a thane does have. Also the thane has an AE interupt with mjollner vs PBAoE groups.

And as said without det a warrior might still be better, but then again a savage is better than a zerker in dps. However zerkers are still useable. So would be a thane and have some extra utility a warrior wont have.

 

[naetha]

I don't see why the whole 'gimped' thane thing is so much of an issue.

Sure, you can't get into opted RvR groups, but no class can unless you're a fotm or a necessary part of a group. There's plenty of gimped classes all over the game that can't get into any RvR groups, let alone opted ones - cabalists, animists etc etc.

Thane is perfectly viable class, just not uber compared to the other mid classes.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Driwen
warrior doesnt have much better shield defence and slightly better chance on hitting slam. The warrior does have better melee dps, but lacks any good range dps which a thane does have. Also the thane has an AE interupt with mjollner vs PBAoE groups.

And as said without det a warrior might still be better, but then again a savage is better than a zerker in dps. However zerkers are still useable. So would be a thane and have some extra utility a warrior wont have.

A warrior can choose to spec 42 or 50 shield with weapon at 50. If a thane brings shield to 42 he has to drop his weapon and stormcalling down, usually with weapon at 39 which leads to an awful lot of missing due to being on the same weaponskill table as bards.
even at 45 hammer I miss a lot more than I hit in RvR and then I hit for a pittence. Last night I was hitting a mincer for 60 (-51) with the slowest 1h hammer in midgard (foe hammer) and that was when I hit.
Combines with 500+ less hitpoints than a warrior and no evade we are mincemeat against almost all attacks.
Fully buffed as a dorf thane I rarely go over 2k hps when buffed which means even casters can nuke me in no time at all..........

As for the savage/zerk issue, this gets more evened out with the savage nerf to the point where a lot of groups in the us use zerks rather than savages as they have greater survivability and are less of a mana drain on healers (and their much higher weaponskill always helps)

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
A warrior can choose to spec 42 or 50 shield with weapon at 50. If a thane brings shield to 42 he has to drop his weapon and stormcalling down, usually with weapon at 39 which leads to an awful lot of missing due to being on the same weaponskill table as bards.
even at 45 hammer I miss a lot more than I hit in RvR and then I hit for a pittence. Last night I was hitting a mincer for 60 (-51) with the slowest 1h hammer in midgard (foe hammer) and that was when I hit.
Combines with 500+ less hitpoints than a warrior and no evade we are mincemeat against almost all attacks.
Fully buffed as a dorf thane I rarely go over 2k hps when buffed which means even casters can nuke me in no time at all..........

you can complain all you want, but you will only miss alot versus high defence chars. People with high evade/high block/parry as weaponskill doesnt influence pure hit and miss. Also you do the same amount of damage as a minstrell(usually more as minstrell dont spec 39 weapon) and it isnt possible to hit for 60(-51), unless something weird is going on.
You miss 1/5th of the hp of a warrior and will be lower on the /assist train target than the healer/shaman and probably even skald. So your survivability isnt that important in groups as when they hit you, they arent hitting your healer/shaman or those are already dead and you have probably already lost anyway.

Your task is that off a defensive tank in groups and then it doesnt really matter how hard you are hitting. You are there for gaurd and slam and possible some extra interupts. You will gaurd and slam only slightly worse than a warrior and you might even be seen as a warrior so they might ignore you even more.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Driwen
you can complain all you want, but you will only miss alot versus high defence chars. People with high evade/high block/parry as weaponskill doesnt influence pure hit and miss. Also you do the same amount of damage as a minstrell(usually more as minstrell dont spec 39 weapon) and it isnt possible to hit for 60(-51), unless something weird is going on.
You miss 1/5th of the hp of a warrior and will be lower on the /assist train target than the healer/shaman and probably even skald. So your survivability isnt that important in groups as when they hit you, they arent hitting your healer/shaman or those are already dead and you have probably already lost anyway.

Your task is that off a defensive tank in groups and then it doesnt really matter how hard you are hitting. You are there for gaurd and slam and possible some extra interupts. You will gaurd and slam only slightly worse than a warrior and you might even be seen as a warrior so they might ignore you even more.

I think there must have been an abs buff or something on the mincer, was all a bit odd. But at the best of times I tend to hit for a maximum of 130 styled on tanks if I'm lucky.
And still, why would a group chose a thane over a warrior if thanes had det?
Warriors can have 8 extra points in shield and do more damage than we can with a weapon than we can do with a combination of a weapon and our instas. And don't trot out that thanes can cast whilst guarding the healers.. Only foolish healers stay still long enough for us to cast so we get off 1 insta for about 100 damage every 20 odd seconds?

 

[Kallio]

wArriors also have PF which is great for guarding.

Thanes dont get enough in exchange for SC line, and for fucks sake my shaman has more hps than my thane!

 

[Arnor]

chill till toa, im hearing good things abuot thanes there :x

 

[horil]

Doubt ToA will do anything good for thanes.. just "minor" fixes which should have been here since release? k..

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
I think there must have been an abs buff or something on the mincer, was all a bit odd. But at the best of times I tend to hit for a maximum of 130 styled on tanks if I'm lucky.
And still, why would a group chose a thane over a warrior if thanes had det?

there arent always warriors around so when they can not choose a warrior they might be worth it and we have no clue off how RvR after ToA is gonna be let alone after the frontiers.
But a thane can use mjollnir versus the pbaoe boxes of the hibbies, so the other tanks can mob them up. And no you wont gaurd then when casting, but when you interupt their pbaoe box they wont do much damage.
There might be more utilities for the thane, but you are so focused on what you are missing that you are not even looking of what you have extra. But off course at the moment there is det and that does upset the balance totally.
However saying thanes are doomed forever, because their specline wont be redone majorly is stupid. Thanes are very good in PvE in some cases better than warriors. So with some changes they might be better than warriors in certain RvR fights again.


edit: and horil thanes were good at release, it is after resists boost, stun immunity and boosting of other classes that they got worse.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Driwen
there arent always warriors around so when they can not choose a warrior they might be worth it and we have no clue off how RvR after ToA is gonna be let alone after the frontiers.
But a thane can use mjollnir versus the pbaoe boxes of the hibbies, so the other tanks can mob them up. And no you wont gaurd then when casting, but when you interupt their pbaoe box they wont do much damage.
There might be more utilities for the thane, but you are so focused on what you are missing that you are not even looking of what you have extra. But off course at the moment there is det and that does upset the balance totally.
However saying thanes are doomed forever, because their specline wont be redone majorly is stupid. Thanes are very good in PvE in some cases better than warriors. So with some changes they might be better than warriors in certain RvR fights again.


edit: and horil thanes were good at release, it is after resists boost, stun immunity and boosting of other classes that they got worse.

no it's after they nerfed chain stun that thanes got bad, chain stun worked perfectly with aoe spells. that's the period when thanes got their reputation of being mezbreakers

as for being useful against a pbaoe box. the hammers are the only 4 second aoe dd spell in the game, they will interrupt at max 1 every 2 pbaoe spells and with a 3 person pbaoe box with decent ra's this will make no difference. Added to that that even after the boose in the next patch it will still only cause 250 max against average resists with a laughable dropoff rate it is next to useless for killing, it's great for leeching in keep fights though which is it's main use.

So you would need at least 2 or three thanes to interrupt a pbaoe box, in which case, who kills the pbaoers? and in fact they will just start baseline nuking instead interrupting the hammers.

and what if you meet a meelee group? 3 thanes will be ripped apart by any meelee group with no question.....

I know the tools a thane has to use. we have our distance spells, but due to the low damage a whole power bar isn't enough to kill opponents even if they stand still.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Arnor
chill till toa, im hearing good things abuot thanes there :x

well there is some stuff being argued with grapple which could be quite interesting for all the offensive hybrids and casters

nice to see they took all the suggestions made through the years in the thane boards on ign and turned it into the stormlord MA ;-)

 

[bjaadi-]

as someone said alot of classes are in the same situation as thanes in rvr... cant get groups just look at reaver... would be cool with a weaponline just for thanes with dd proc etc..

btw we should make a day that all thanes of midgard zerg together in emain such mjoolnirs

 

[Eyeinthedark]

all you nice Thanes out there just w8 till toa =) the days of 8v8 are over its zerg time and everyone can join in

my main is a skald and i am looking forward to 1.65 major, not just cause of skald upgrade but mostly cause of change in rvr scene..... any change is good in rvr atm! so bored with 1 fg vs 1 fg running back and forth between mmg and amg.. it was fun the first months but it got really repetetive.

Really hope we get to c more non fotm classes in rvr now so not just hardcore players and l337s can enjoy rvr but those who understand that this is a game and just wish to have some fun those few hours they have time to play daoc.

I bet a lot of l337s will quit daoc or /cry but it dont matter daoc will hardly have to shut down cause of them : ) there will be new players and they will learn to fight it the toa way!

/cheer toa
/cheer thanes
/cheer Skald upgrade

 

[iguk]

Originally posted by duact
my thane is working as intended atm , strong potionbot at mtk

I want to do hammer time again

 

[duact]

pl inf for me iguk!

 

[iguk]

So u want inf now? not a rejuv?

 

[etcetra]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
Mackey says they are looking at tweaking thanes although he is refusing to make any major changes or give them any utility of any form or raise their dps output which kind of leaves them second rate.
As for the det issue. it still doesn't counter the fact that for an optimal group there is no role for a thane even if they did have det, a warrior has better defence and both zerk and savage have better offence

They also have the abilty to interrupt mezzers and so from range.

 

[osy]

Just ask Monty, Etcetra and Bjaadi how much Thanes suck.

We defended both Hurbury and Surs lastnight, versus larger numbers of albs. Was mucho fun, interrupting, slaming, guard, etc.

Wish we could start a trend.

 

[old_saxo]

from long long long time ago in the beta ( 2 years and shit ).. Thanes were uber ownage class that beated all the 2hand palas.


but by the 2years paladin got more and more effectiv and well thanes got nearly nothing -_- i dont get it...

 

[VodkaFairy]

I saw a solo thane today at primetime

 

[etcetra]

Originally posted by VodkaFairy
I saw a solo thane today at primetime

*raise*

 

[etcetra]

Originally posted by osy
Just ask Monty, Etcetra and Bjaadi how much Thanes suck.

We defended both Hurbury and Surs lastnight, versus larger numbers of albs. Was mucho fun, interrupting, slaming, guard, etc.

Wish we could start a trend.

Aye, that was some of the greatest fun ive ever had in daoc
When we ported out to them albs who was like 4 times more than us

Okey, some help from those 'lvl 1 keep'-guards, but aye wtfpwnage !! :x