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Iswind
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TL Report: Thane
Version: 1.64
Date: 18 August, 2003
1.0 Overview:
In PvE, Thanes do well, we are a solid member of a group. In RvR, as a hybrid warrior, we have fewer hits, less offensive punch and less defense then most melee combatants. As a hybrid caster, we have weak spells that do little more then interrupt our target. Thanes bring little to a RvR group, there is another class who can do anything we do better, with better group survivability. Our lack or group abilities, low offensive punch, and defensive abilities cause Thanes to be under represented in RvR points, and show a weakness that has yet to be resolved.
2.0 Concerns:
I'm primarily concerned with the Thane Stormcalling Line and our lack of Group-ability. Stormcalling is under powered, and costs to damage ratio causes us to enter combat with little END for styles and little front end damage caused to target. This leaves us as weak warriors much of the time in RvR combat. In addition in RvR Thanes have nothing to bring to a group. All of our self buffs can be replaced by another class, cast on others, and are better then ours. In addition, our defense options are outclassed by Tanks, and offense options by warriors or any of the light-tanks to the point that there is little reason to include a Thane in a RvR group. We need something added to the Stormcalling line hopefully something that would give Thanes a unique ability for the realm and group.
3.0 Specline Issues:
3.1 Thor's Potence - STR/CON Self Buff - This buff was improved recently but due to changes in the game, it is actually a disadvantage to have. Our 50 level spec version doesn't give us a full bonus to STR/CON which means to cap out we need to have a Shaman buff us. With the changes made to END Reg. Buff effecting Shaman they are even more limited in what buffs they can give out. This Buff needs to be increased to the 62 point delve value so that it would give us a buff that would not need to be upgraded by another class.
We've spent a lot of time since the last report looking over the Thane. We don't feel this change will address the Thanes issues, so we're not planning on adding it at this time.
3.2 Thunder's Rend - Damage Add Self Buff - This buff was reduced when the power leveling reduction was made to DA and DS spells several versions ago. This has lowered the Thanes damage output a great deal, as a hybrid we give up a lot of our Weapon Damage and to hit and need this DA back to allow us to compete. This buff also can be upgraded by a Runemaster, which once again has a castable improved version of Damage Add, lowering the value of a Thane.
DA's are working as designed. We know people wish they were like they were before, but that is unlikely to change. If there is an issue with thane melee output, it needs to be adjusted in other ways. However, we're not convinced the problem with thanes lies with their melee damage output.
3.3 Thor's Full Lightning - Castable DD spell - This spell in general works well, it is our only real offensive spell we can use. It has a large impact on our END and POW pools which makes its use limited to one or perhaps two times in PvE combat, and maybe once in RvR. At a 48 level spec on average in RvR will only do around 200 pts of damage due to resists. The damage on the spell needs to be upgraded slightly, so that the damage and cost to cast are more in line.
Based off the last TL report, we looked into making some minor changes to thane spells to try and address the issues with the class. What we found is that we really need to do a full review of all the Thane spells to make them more compatible with DAOC of today. We're hoping to get some or all of these changes into 1.65.
3.4 Command Mjollnir - Castable AOE spell - This spell is virtually useless to the Thane, The spell is only marginally useful in keep defense. The spell damage is low, the drop off on damage makes it worthless other then to break mez on enemy players. With a 4 second casting time any caster can interrupt us before we could cast this even if we start first. The damage on this spell needs to be upgraded, damage Drop off lowered, and / or have an additional effect added to it, such as a snare or debuff effect to make casting this worth using.
3.5 Thunder Roar - Instant PBAOE spell - This spell is weak for its cost in POW and END, the spell is hardly used by the class except as a random nuisance spell in RvR, and as a Coup-de-grace or quick pull off a caster in PvE. Once again the POW to Damage ratio needs to be improved.
4.0 New Issues:
With the changes to melee combat, we are going to have a more challenging time in RvR because of our low offense, and hit points. The parry/block changes should help some, but we generally have a lower spec in those due to needing to spec in Stormcalling. In addition with the in-combat changes we will see that all members of the group need to be active in fighting/healing/casting; which will lead to the need for more specialists who can bring a much larger effect to the group then the hybrid warrior, such as the Thane.
The Thane spell changes will hopefully address this.
5.0 Other Issues:
5.1 Realm Abilities - The Thanes Choices for Realm Abilities are fewer then any of the other hybrid class, but in addition Thanes need the addition of caster RA abilities to give what is our signature ability a chance to make a difference.
5.1.1 Mystic Crystal Lore - Thanes need to have access to Mystic Crystal Lore, (MCL) would allow one of the issues Thanes have, High POW cost spells to be reduced slightly.
Agreed on MCL.
5.1.2 Avoid Pain - A Thanes Low Hits, Lack of Evade, and Chain Armor combine to make Thanes a weak RvR combatant. The addition of this RA would assist us in being competitive in RvR.
Not sure if AP is right for the thanes. Will think this over.
5.1.3 Wild Power - Thanes need to improve the damage done with their spells, this RA would give us a chance to critical with our spells, and set the power of the storm loose on our enemy. This RA has the additional requirement of Augmented Acuity level 2, so it would cost the Thane a great deal in their RA choices to commit to this option to improve his combat spells.
I don't think WP is appropriate for the thanes, but we can revisit this after the thane spell changes.
5.1.4 Determination - Thanes need a way to perform in RvR. Even if we were limited in the number of levels we could advance and doubled the cost of the skill a heavy tank pays. Thanes must be able to act in RvR and this skill would improve our ability to, in both Defensive/Defending and Offensive/Assisting roles.
Thanes are absolutely not getting Determination.
5.1.5 Static Tempest - This RA needs to be scraped and replaced with something useful, and appropriate to a class based on the power of the Storms. At this time less then a couple of Thane have this RA, its RA costs are much to high, and does nothing more then hand the enemy a stun immunity.
This will be handled in the RA review which will likely occur sometime after 1.65.
5.2 Evade 1 - Thanes are very weak in RvR combat for two basic reasons, we hit for little damage, and take few hits to be killed. Right now we do little more then interfere with their attempts to kill dangerous foe's. Thanes are the only non-plate wearing hybrid not to have evade. Evade 1 is a weak defense, but the addition of any damage avoidance would be of great use.
We still do not believe giving thanes Evade 1 is the answer to the problems. No plans to add it in the near future.
6.0 Item Issues:
6.1 Thane Epic Armor - The Epic Armor Torso armor graphic is ugly. We have fought for 50 levels to earn the right to complete a difficult quest. And for that we get what appears to be an apron. So many of the other classes have fantastic armor skins, we would really like to have something to be proud of also.
Noted for the item/art teams.
7.0 Updates:
7.1 Thor's Potence Icon has been updated to represent the correct buff.
At least theyr gonna look at our spell line
Probably gonna get McL nevner ever gonna get champ like buff determ or evade 1 it seams but this is the best report/respons ive seen so far
Version: 1.64
Date: 18 August, 2003
1.0 Overview:
In PvE, Thanes do well, we are a solid member of a group. In RvR, as a hybrid warrior, we have fewer hits, less offensive punch and less defense then most melee combatants. As a hybrid caster, we have weak spells that do little more then interrupt our target. Thanes bring little to a RvR group, there is another class who can do anything we do better, with better group survivability. Our lack or group abilities, low offensive punch, and defensive abilities cause Thanes to be under represented in RvR points, and show a weakness that has yet to be resolved.
2.0 Concerns:
I'm primarily concerned with the Thane Stormcalling Line and our lack of Group-ability. Stormcalling is under powered, and costs to damage ratio causes us to enter combat with little END for styles and little front end damage caused to target. This leaves us as weak warriors much of the time in RvR combat. In addition in RvR Thanes have nothing to bring to a group. All of our self buffs can be replaced by another class, cast on others, and are better then ours. In addition, our defense options are outclassed by Tanks, and offense options by warriors or any of the light-tanks to the point that there is little reason to include a Thane in a RvR group. We need something added to the Stormcalling line hopefully something that would give Thanes a unique ability for the realm and group.
3.0 Specline Issues:
3.1 Thor's Potence - STR/CON Self Buff - This buff was improved recently but due to changes in the game, it is actually a disadvantage to have. Our 50 level spec version doesn't give us a full bonus to STR/CON which means to cap out we need to have a Shaman buff us. With the changes made to END Reg. Buff effecting Shaman they are even more limited in what buffs they can give out. This Buff needs to be increased to the 62 point delve value so that it would give us a buff that would not need to be upgraded by another class.
We've spent a lot of time since the last report looking over the Thane. We don't feel this change will address the Thanes issues, so we're not planning on adding it at this time.
3.2 Thunder's Rend - Damage Add Self Buff - This buff was reduced when the power leveling reduction was made to DA and DS spells several versions ago. This has lowered the Thanes damage output a great deal, as a hybrid we give up a lot of our Weapon Damage and to hit and need this DA back to allow us to compete. This buff also can be upgraded by a Runemaster, which once again has a castable improved version of Damage Add, lowering the value of a Thane.
DA's are working as designed. We know people wish they were like they were before, but that is unlikely to change. If there is an issue with thane melee output, it needs to be adjusted in other ways. However, we're not convinced the problem with thanes lies with their melee damage output.
3.3 Thor's Full Lightning - Castable DD spell - This spell in general works well, it is our only real offensive spell we can use. It has a large impact on our END and POW pools which makes its use limited to one or perhaps two times in PvE combat, and maybe once in RvR. At a 48 level spec on average in RvR will only do around 200 pts of damage due to resists. The damage on the spell needs to be upgraded slightly, so that the damage and cost to cast are more in line.
Based off the last TL report, we looked into making some minor changes to thane spells to try and address the issues with the class. What we found is that we really need to do a full review of all the Thane spells to make them more compatible with DAOC of today. We're hoping to get some or all of these changes into 1.65.
3.4 Command Mjollnir - Castable AOE spell - This spell is virtually useless to the Thane, The spell is only marginally useful in keep defense. The spell damage is low, the drop off on damage makes it worthless other then to break mez on enemy players. With a 4 second casting time any caster can interrupt us before we could cast this even if we start first. The damage on this spell needs to be upgraded, damage Drop off lowered, and / or have an additional effect added to it, such as a snare or debuff effect to make casting this worth using.
3.5 Thunder Roar - Instant PBAOE spell - This spell is weak for its cost in POW and END, the spell is hardly used by the class except as a random nuisance spell in RvR, and as a Coup-de-grace or quick pull off a caster in PvE. Once again the POW to Damage ratio needs to be improved.
4.0 New Issues:
With the changes to melee combat, we are going to have a more challenging time in RvR because of our low offense, and hit points. The parry/block changes should help some, but we generally have a lower spec in those due to needing to spec in Stormcalling. In addition with the in-combat changes we will see that all members of the group need to be active in fighting/healing/casting; which will lead to the need for more specialists who can bring a much larger effect to the group then the hybrid warrior, such as the Thane.
The Thane spell changes will hopefully address this.
5.0 Other Issues:
5.1 Realm Abilities - The Thanes Choices for Realm Abilities are fewer then any of the other hybrid class, but in addition Thanes need the addition of caster RA abilities to give what is our signature ability a chance to make a difference.
5.1.1 Mystic Crystal Lore - Thanes need to have access to Mystic Crystal Lore, (MCL) would allow one of the issues Thanes have, High POW cost spells to be reduced slightly.
Agreed on MCL.
5.1.2 Avoid Pain - A Thanes Low Hits, Lack of Evade, and Chain Armor combine to make Thanes a weak RvR combatant. The addition of this RA would assist us in being competitive in RvR.
Not sure if AP is right for the thanes. Will think this over.
5.1.3 Wild Power - Thanes need to improve the damage done with their spells, this RA would give us a chance to critical with our spells, and set the power of the storm loose on our enemy. This RA has the additional requirement of Augmented Acuity level 2, so it would cost the Thane a great deal in their RA choices to commit to this option to improve his combat spells.
I don't think WP is appropriate for the thanes, but we can revisit this after the thane spell changes.
5.1.4 Determination - Thanes need a way to perform in RvR. Even if we were limited in the number of levels we could advance and doubled the cost of the skill a heavy tank pays. Thanes must be able to act in RvR and this skill would improve our ability to, in both Defensive/Defending and Offensive/Assisting roles.
Thanes are absolutely not getting Determination.
5.1.5 Static Tempest - This RA needs to be scraped and replaced with something useful, and appropriate to a class based on the power of the Storms. At this time less then a couple of Thane have this RA, its RA costs are much to high, and does nothing more then hand the enemy a stun immunity.
This will be handled in the RA review which will likely occur sometime after 1.65.
5.2 Evade 1 - Thanes are very weak in RvR combat for two basic reasons, we hit for little damage, and take few hits to be killed. Right now we do little more then interfere with their attempts to kill dangerous foe's. Thanes are the only non-plate wearing hybrid not to have evade. Evade 1 is a weak defense, but the addition of any damage avoidance would be of great use.
We still do not believe giving thanes Evade 1 is the answer to the problems. No plans to add it in the near future.
6.0 Item Issues:
6.1 Thane Epic Armor - The Epic Armor Torso armor graphic is ugly. We have fought for 50 levels to earn the right to complete a difficult quest. And for that we get what appears to be an apron. So many of the other classes have fantastic armor skins, we would really like to have something to be proud of also.
Noted for the item/art teams.
7.0 Updates:
7.1 Thor's Potence Icon has been updated to represent the correct buff.
At least theyr gonna look at our spell line
Probably gonna get McL nevner ever gonna get champ like buff determ or evade 1 it seams but this is the best report/respons ive seen so far
