TG Drops - what drops Blue Dragon Crystals?

[illu]

Hi all

I'm looking for a few items for a new template soon, and have been searching for a replacement Blue Dragon Crystal for a while (it's one of those annoying items that you have to repair and eventually dies). Can anyone remember what mob in TG Drops it? I have been given some info in the Trading section as to what mobs it may drop off, just wondering if anyone else has any info.

While searching, all I seem to find is that the Blue Dragon Crystal drops in TG. Nowhere mentions any mobs.
Does that mean if I kill enough skellies at the entrance, it will eventually drop?

I did stumble across an interesting site (no idea if the info is 100% correct) but it looks pretty informative as to what mobs dropped what loot.....

>
> Ancient Icebound Shield
> (Shields - Large) Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Strength: 15 Constitution: 22
> drop Icebound Skeleton
>
> Frenzied Blackhearted Shield
> (Shields - Medium) Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Dexterity: 22 Quickness: 15
> drop TG
>
> Frozen Blackhearted Shield
> (Shields - Small) Mending: 4 Augmentation: 4 Piety: 22 Hits: 40
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Icespine
>
> Guthlac Great Shield> (Shields - Large) Shields: 6 Crush Resist: 6% Slash Resist: 6% Thrust Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Elder Council Guthlac
>
> Seething Ember> (Shields - Small) Strength: 22 Constitution: 15 Quickness: 22 Charisma: 22
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Icespine
>
> Tuscar's Runic Buckler
> (Shields - Small) Cold Resist: 8% Hits: 80 Heat Resist: 16%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscar's Runic Defender
> (Shields - Medium) Matter Resist: 8% Body Resist: 7% Spirit Resist: 8% Hits: 80
> Dropped by King Tuscar
>
> Tuscar's Runic Grave
> (Shields - Medium) Crush Resist: 9% Slash Resist: 9% Thrust Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9%
> Dropped by King Tuscar
>
>
>
>
> Agmundr's Foe Hammer
> Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.60 Hammer: 6 Stormcalling: 3 Strength: 15 Energy Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Icelord Agmundr
>
> Ancient Icebound Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.20 Axe: 4 Left Axe: 4 Parry: 3 Quickness: 22
> Dropped by TG
>
> Blackhearted Spear
> (Spear) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Spear: 5 Stealth: 3 Strength: 15 Hits: 40
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon Shadow Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.60 Axe: 4 Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon Shadow Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.90 Hammer: 4 Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Hits: 40
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon-shadow Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.60 Axe: 4 Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Dragon-shadow Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.90 Hammer: 4 Shields: 4 Parry: 4 Hits: 40
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon-shadow Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.20 Sword: 4 Parry: 4 Strength: 22 Charisma: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dreaded Frostbound Fang
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.40 Parry: 4 Constitution: 22 Energy Resist: 6% Hand to Hand: 4
> Dropped by TG
>
> Frenzied Blackhearted Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.20 Left Axe: 4 Critical Strikes: 4 Stealth: 4 Strength: 15
> Dropped by Elder Council Guthlac
>
> Frozen Blackhearted Axe
> Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.30 Axe: 4 Parry: 4 Strength: 4 Charisma: 4
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Frozen Blackhearted Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.60 Piety: 21 Crush Resist: 8% Slash Resist: 8% Power: 8
> Dropped by TG
>
> Frozen Blackhearted Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.40 Sword: 4 Critical Strikes: 4 Stealth: 4 Strength: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Frozen Moon Claw
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.20 Dly: 2.70 Parry: 3 Quickness: 15 Hits: 40 Hand to Hand: 4
> Dropped by Jailor Vifil
>
> Ice Barbed Moon Claw
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.30 Parry: 3 Dexterity: 15 Energy Resist: 6% Hand to Hand: 5
> Dropped by TG
>
> Icy Barbed Moon Claw
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.20 Parry: 4 Dexterity: 22 Energy Resist: 6% Hand to Hand: 4
> Dropped by TG
>
> Icy War Greave
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.30 Constitution: 15 Quickness: 15 Matter Resist: 6% Hand to Hand: 4
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Icy War Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Sword: 6 Crush Resist: 6% Body Resist: 6% Spirit Resist: 6%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Kvasir's Sword of Blight
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.50 Critical Strikes: 4 Stealth: 4 Strength: 30 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by Icelord Kvasir
>
> Nokkvi's Mauler
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.00 Hammer: 6 Strength: 27 Crush Resist: 7%
> Dropped by Council Nokkvi
>
> Nokkvi's Vile Slayer
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.40 Sword: 6 Constitution: 27 Crush Resist: 7%
> Dropped by Council Nokkvi
>
> Seething Frostbound Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.50 Axe: 4 Stormcalling: 4 Parry: 4 Strength: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Seething Frostbound Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.70 Hammer: 4 Crush Resist: 8% Power: 8 Hits: 48
> Dropped by TG
>
> Seething Frostbound Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.90 Sword: 4 Parry: 3 Strength: 15 Piety: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Skuf's Cave Crusher
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.30 Piety: 30 Cold Resist: 8% Power: 7 Heat Resist: 8%
> Dropped by Icelord Skuf
>
> Steinvor's Frenzied Axe
> Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.20 Axe: 6 Left Axe: 5 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by Icelord Steinvor
>
> Steinvor's Sturdy Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Bonus: 35% Axe: 6 Shields: 5 Strength: 15
> Dropped by Icelord Steinvor
>
> Tuscar's Moon Claw
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.50 Crush Resist: 9% Slash Resist: 9% Thrust Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscar's Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.00 Sword: 6 Strength: 15 Constitution: 15 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by King Tuscar
>
> Tuscar's War Axe
> Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.00 Axe: 6 Strength: 15 Constitution: 15 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by King Tuscar
>
> Tuscar's War Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.50 Crush Resist: 9% Slash Resist: 9% Thrust Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9%
> Dropped by King Tuscar
>
> Writhing Fang Greave
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.20 Quickness: 27 Thrust Resist: 7% Hand to Hand: 5
> Dropped by TG
>
> Writhing Moon Fang
> (Hand to Hand) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 3.20 Quickness: 27 Thrust Resist: 7% Hand to Hand: 6
> Dropped by TG
>
>
>
>
> Agmundr's Foe Slayer
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.40 Dly: 5.70 Sword: 5 Crush Resist: 6% Thrust Resist: 6% Hits: 40
> Dropped by Icelord Agmundr
>
> Axe of Icy Death
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Axe: 6 Matter Resist: 6% Body Resist: 6% Spirit Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Blackhearted Great Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.90 Hammer: 5 Parry: 3 Matter Resist: 6% Spirit Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Blackhearted Great Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.90 Sword: 5 Critical Strikes: 3 Crush Resist: 6% Hits: 40
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Bladehand
>
> Dragon-shadow Great Axe
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.60 Axe: 5 Parry: 3 Crush Resist: 6% Slash Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Bladehand
>
> Dragon-shadow Great Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.60 Hammer: 5 Parry: 3 Body Resist: 6% Energy Resist: 6%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon-shadow Staff
> Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Constitution: 15 Dexterity: 30 Quickness: 15 Piety: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dread Bone Great Cleaver
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.60 Axe: 4 Strength: 15 Constitution: 22 Charisma: 22
> Dropped by Icelord Kvasir
>
> Dread Bone Great Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.70 Constitution: 22 Piety: 22 Cold Resist: 6% Hits: 60
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Icetouch
>
> Dread Bone Great Sword
> (Sword) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.50 Sword: 5 Parry: 3 Constitution: 15 Charisma: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dread Bone Spear
> (Spear) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.00 Spear: 5 Stealth: 3 Crush Resist: 6% Slash Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Empyrean Bonewalker's Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 0.00 Darkness: 50 Suppression: 50 Hits: 148 Bone Army: 50
> Dropped by TG
>
> Empyrean Runewalkers Staff
> Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 0.00 Darkness: 50 Suppression: 50 Runecarving: 50 Hits: 148
> Dropped by TG
>
> Frenzied Blackhearted Cleaver
> (Axe) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.80 Axe: 4 Stealth: 4 Strength: 15 Quickness: 22
> Dropped by TG
>
> Icy Great Hammer
> (Hammer) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Hammer: 6 Slash Resist: 6% Cold Resist: 6% Heat Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Icy War Spear
> (Spear) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.00 Spear: 6 Stealth: 3 Crush Resist: 6% Thrust Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Lord of Niflheim Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.50 Darkness: 50 Suppression: 50 Summoning: 50 Hits: 148
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
> Trident of Soulless Lament
> (Spear) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 4.50 Spear: 6 Cold Resist: 6% Heat Resist: 6% Energy Resist: 6%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Bonesplitters Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Darkness: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13 Bone Army: 50
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Tuscarian Bonewalkers Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Suppression: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13 Bone Army: 50
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Runewalkers Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Darkness: 50 Runecarving: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13
> Dropped by Council Vagn
>
> Tuscarian Soul-tethering Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Suppression: 50 Runecarving: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13
> Dropped by Council Vagn
>
> Tuscarian Soul-wrenchers Staff
> (Staff) Dmg: 16.50 Dly: 5.00 Suppression: 50 Summoning: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Soulbound Staff
> (Staff) Suppression: 50 Runecarving: 50 Piety: 33 Power: 13
> Dropped by TG
>
>
>
> Brittlebone Vest
> (Armor: Cloth) AF: 51 ABS: 0 Dexterity: 22 Piety: 22 Hits: 60 Bone Army: 3
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
> Dragon-shadow Vest
> (Armor: Studded) AF: 102 ABS: 19 Crush Resist: 9% Matter Resist: 7% Heat Resist: 9% Hand to Hand: 3
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
> Ice-shadow Jerkin
> (Armor: Leather) AF: 102 ABS: 10 Sword: 3 Axe: 3 Strength: 21 Constitution: 27
> Dropped by Hurika
>
> Runed Tuscarian Vest
> (Armor: Cloth) AF: 51 ABS: 0 Darkness: 4 Dexterity: 22 Piety: 22 Hits: 40
> Dropped by Hurika
>
> Soul-scarred Vest
> (Armor: Cloth) AF: 51 ABS: 0 Summoning: 3 Dexterity: 22 Piety: 22 Hits: 60
> Dropped by Hurika
>
> Tuscarian Bloodforged Hauberk
> (Armor: Chain) AF: 102 ABS: 27 Shields: 3 Parry: 3 Strength: 27 Hits: 56
> Dropped by Jailor Vifil
>
> Tuscarian Clan Vest> (Armor: Studded) AF: 102 ABS: 19 Cold Resist: 8% Hits: 48 Heat Resist: 8% ALL Melee Skills: 4
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
> Tuscarian Discordant Vest
> (Armor: Chain) AF: 102 ABS: 27 Sword: 3 Parry: 4 Strength: 22 Charisma: 22
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Monitor Vest
> (Armor: Chain) AF: 102 ABS: 27 Augmentation: 3 Piety: 18 Crush Resist: 9% Heat Resist: 9%
> Dropped by Jailor Vifil
>
> Tuscarian Oracle Vest
> (Armor: Chain) AF: 102 ABS: 27 Piety: 18 Body Resist: 9% Spirit Resist: 9% ALL Magic Skills: 3
> Dropped by Torst
>
> Wintery Seeker's Vest
> (Armor: Studded) AF: 102 ABS: 19 Stealth: 3 Composite Bow: 3 Strength: 21 Dexterity: 27
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
>
> Dropped by Jailor Vifil
>
>
>
> >
> Black Dragon Crystal
> Parry: 3 Strength: 15 Quickness: 15 Crush Resist: 6%
> Dropped by Council Otrygg
>
> Blue Dragon Crystal
> Stealth: 3 Constitution: 15 Dexterity: 15 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by TG
>
> Green Dragon Crystal
> Dexterity: 21 Piety: 22 Power: 8 Hits: 48
> Dropped in Tuscaren Glacier
>
> Hjalmar's Quiver
> Stealth: 4 Composite Bow: 5 Slash Resist: 6% Hits: 60
> Dropped by Elder Icelord Hjalmar
>
> Hurika's Quill
> Dexterity: 24 Matter Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9% Spirit Resist: 9%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Hurika's Shadowed Eye
> Constitution: 18 Power: 14 Hits: 64
> Dropped by TG
>
> Jewel of Vanity
> Crush Resist: 9% Slash Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9% Spirit Resist: 9%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Otrygg's Jewel
> Constitution: 22 Quickness: 22 Charisma: 30 Power: 6
> Dropped by Council Otrygg
>
> Purple Dragon Crystal
> Constitution: 21 Charisma: 22 Power: 8 Hits: 48
> Dropped by TG
>
> Red Dragon Crystal
> Shields: 4 Constitution: 19 Dexterity: 19 Quickness: 21
> Dropped by TG
>
>
>
>
> Black Sapphire Necklace
> Dexterity: 16 Quickness: 16 Hits: 56
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Seer
>
> Dire Medallion
> Strength: 21 Slash Resist: 10% Body Resist: 10% Spirit Resist: 10%
> Dropped by Queen Kula
>
> Emerald Necklace
> Constitution: 37 Power: 11
> Dropped by TG
>
> Ice Bone Choker
> Constitution: 21 Crush Resist: 10% Slash Resist: 10% Thrust Resist: 10
> Dropped by Queen Kula
>
> Ruby Necklace
> Piety: 37 Power: 11
> Dropped by TG
>
>
> >
> Eye of Fornfrusenen
> Strength: 24 Constitution: 24 Dexterity: 24 Piety: 24
> Dropped by Fornfrusenen Shard
>
> Formfrusonen's Eye
> Strength: 24 Constitution: 24 Dexterity: 24 Piety: 24
> Dropped by TG
>
> Ozur's Shadow Ring
> Strength: 22 Constitution: 30 Dexterity: 22 Quickness: 15
> Dropped by Council Ozur
>
> Ozur's Skull Ring
> Dexterity: 22 Piety: 22 Power: 11 Hits: 40
> Dropped by Council Ozur
>
> Tuscarian Ring of Fortitude
> Constitution: 30 Crush Resist: 8% Slash Resist: 9%
> Dropped by Issorden
>
> Tuscarian Ring of Glibness
> Charisma: 30 Matter Resist: 6% Body Resist: 6%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Ring of Guile
> Piety: 30 Matter Resist: 8% Body Resist: 9%
> Dropped by Council Hord
>
> Tuscarian Ring of Insight
> Piety: 30 Cold Resist: 8% Spirit Resist: 9%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Tuscarian Ring of Might
> Strength: 30 Thrust Resist: 8% Body Resist: 9%
> Hrimthursa Berg
>
>
> >
> Belt of Iceshadow
> Charisma: 27 Power: 14
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Throne Guard
>
> Belt of the Blackheart
> Piety: 27 Power: 14
> Dropped by TG
>
> Dragon Sinue Belt
> Constitution: 30 Quickness: 27 Hits: 48
> Dropped by TG
>
> Frozen Girdle
> Constitution: 27 Power: 14
> Dropped by TG
>
> Hord's Blood Stained Belt
> Cold Resist: 9% Hits: 64 Heat Resist: 9% Energy Resist: 9%
> Dropped by Council Hord
>
> Hord's Braided Belt
> Dexterity: 24 Slash Resist: 9% Body Resist: 9% Heat Resist: 9%
> Dropped by Council Hord
>
>
>
>
> Bracer of Forlorn Thought
> Piety: 33 Cold Resist: 8% Body Resist: 7%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Bracer of Frozen Might
> Strength: 33 Crush Resist: 7% Heat Resist: 8%
> Dropped by Hrimthursa Icespine
>
> Bracer of Iceshadow
> Constitution: 33 Thrust Resist: 7% Energy Resist: 8%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Brilliant Ice Crystal Bracelet
> Charisma: 33 Spirit Resist: 7% Energy Resist: 8%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Hollow Dragon Knuckle
> Quickness: 33 Matter Resist: 7% Heat Resist: 8%
> Dropped by TG
>
> Ice Crystal Bracer
> Dexterity: 33 Slash Resist: 7% Body Resist: 8%
> Dropped by TG
>
>
>
>
> Reactive Harm Turning Tincture
> Reactive Mending Tincture
> Reactive Retributive Tincture Dropped by Council Otrygg
> Stable Harm Turning Tincture (Mid) (150 )
> Stable Mind's Eye Tincture ()
> Volatile Harm Turning Tincture (150..volatile)
> Volatile Mending Tincture (80 )
>

Hope it's of use to someone.

Any info appreciated. Or if anyone has one of these crystals in their vault gathering dust, feel free to pm me for a swap/cash/sex deal.

Oli - Illu

 

[Naffets]

Ask danord, im sure he knows

 

[illu]

Is Danord a TG Raid Runner?

Oli - Illu

 

[AngelHeal]

this is sooooo rvr related.

 

[Urgluf]

sjeez post this crap in mid section.. you should know that...

 

[illu]

Well yes - it could go in middy section, but it could also go in other realms, and also general information. In fact it could pretty much go anywhere.....
And I'm basically just asking for info and I imagine TG is the same on all realms, so people that RvR will hopefully know the answer.

Oli - Illu

 

[Phoebee-v-]

Well yes - it could go in middy section, but it could also go in other realms, and also general information. In fact it could pretty much go anywhere.....
And I'm basically just asking for info and I imagine TG is the same on all realms, so people that RvR will hopefully know the answer.

Oli - Illu

erm... TG is mid epic SI dungeon so kinda hard for the other realms then mid to farm it.

 

[illu]

erm... TG is mid epic SI dungeon so kinda hard for the other realms then mid to farm it.

Ah. Spot the person who has played middy 99% of the time since beta :>
Ok maybe this should have gone on middy section

You albs and hibs should ask for a TG version in your lands - it's very pretty :>

Oli - Illu

 

[Raven]

sidi and galadoria?

 

[Phoebee-v-]

You albs and hibs should ask for a TG version in your lands - it's very pretty :>

Oli - Illu

They got and imo Hib is the most beutyful one.... But TG is very close and sweet sound effects with the echo and smelting ice.

 

[Himse]

They got and imo Hib is the most beutyful one.... But TG is very close and sweet sound effects with the echo and smelting ice.

Sidi is teh nicest imo =( such a cool castle :< shame high level mobs redecorated it :<

 

[Naffets]

Is Danord a TG Raid Runner?

Oli - Illu

afaik danord farmed the hell out of TG so he should be able to help

 

[Limitless]

Danord for president.

 

[Thadius]

Danord for president.

Nah

The guy in your avatar for president

 

[Nott]

Danord is the president of ice ! :-D

I think his toons should get some icespells for being in TG that much :-D

Anyway, I used to be a tg farmer myself back in my daoc days. I made these webs which now may or may not be outdated I don't know.

Which named drops what:
http://home.smartcall.no/rom289/daoc/tgloc.htm

TG-items:
http://home.smartcall.no/rom289/daoc/tgi.htm

Think all of the dragon crystals also dropped from trash mobs. Skellies for sure.

 

[Danord_durin]

Danord is the president of ice ! :-D

I think his toons should get some icespells for being in TG that much :-D

Anyway, I used to be a tg farmer myself back in my daoc days. I made these webs which now may or may not be outdated I don't know.

Which named drops what:
http://home.smartcall.no/rom289/daoc/tgloc.htm

TG-items:
http://home.smartcall.no/rom289/daoc/tgi.htm

Think all of the dragon crystals also dropped from trash mobs. Skellies for sure.

Yes yes and yes. Listen to this guy he knows close to as much as me, and im to lazy to post

And btw Hiya Nott come back from the silly kid game ur playing

 

[lpep]

think some of the SH guys maybe denarius was talking of doing some tg farming soonish so giv em a shout i'm sure they will help if they can...