teh politick

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Wij
For the sake of argument we could assume that he bought his booze from the alcopop-space-aliens it doesn't really matter. The fact is that we can change our circumstances to our advantage or disadvantage without necessarily fucking anyone over (although we could do that too obviously.)

not so. your actions or inactions may ultimately screw me over regardless of you being aware or not

 

[Will]

You'll be getting taxed to provide the cash for everyone. And money doesn't come from nothing. Bah. Get rid of money.

 

[xane]

what TdC said, in any complex society you can be sure that your actions have some effect elsewhere. The Wij example is unrealistic and simplistic, it just does not happen that way.

The paradox is that to achieve "freedom" we need to organise into societies, which then have to restrict it.

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Wij


They certainly aren't the same game but they sometimes effect each other. I just value my freedom very highly and despise the idea that I should feel guilty if I have more money/sex than someone alse. And before you say it I felt just the same when I was a poverty-stricken young virgin too

oh they effect each other, I agree, you just balance them as best you can as an individual. By the way, I feel the same. I used to be a egali-utopian wunderkind though.
I still am actually, but my vision of utopia has changed

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by xane


The basic answer is to stop mistaking "freedom" for a right that is somehow foisted from other people.

Going back to your original point then I fail to see that in any way I am 'foisting a right' from other people. The only way you could make this true in all cases is to simply define liberty as 'creating inequality.' Which plainly is not what you were after.

Can you really think of no situation where I could exercise a choice which caused inequality without me 'foisting a right' from someone ?

 

[xane]

Wij, I was trying to criticise the attitude of "foisting a right" myself, people view freedom as being able to do what they damn well please. Freedom is actually not demanded, it is only given, the reality is you allow freedoms for others in the vain hope they will return the compliment.

Freedom viewed in this way gives us liberty, but one with a sense of responsibility and respect attached, which are in turn, and rather ironically, self-imposed restrictions on our own freedoms.

The misuse of "freedom" and "liberty" is what I am on about.

 

[Testin da Cable]

ah, but we do impose on each other Wij, it can't be helped without creation of structures to guard against folly [ie to stop us killing each other]. edit: oh boy this reads strange

 

[Will]

Freedom to do anything you want is anarchy. Life isn't black and white, that is what I was getting at way back when I dissed student politics.

I'm going to stick with my Wiccan creed. Its far more sensible. If only more people lived by it.

 

[Wij]

I see no necessary connection between me exercising 'freedom' and me imposing on others. It will in some cases certainly but not in all. Surely there are some actions that I can take that others are neutral to. People cannot give a shit about every single thing I do. That seems absurd. Everything may be interlinked, I don't mind whether that's true or not but it does not follow that there are no actions that I can perform which are morally neutral to others.

 

[MYstIC G]

Originally posted by Wij


Where does the 10,000 come from then ? And they are still unequal cos I'll have 10,000 plus my regular investment income.

You're assuming things based on existing monetary systems

 

[Wij]

That was just a little side point Meg. After all, who would care about equality if we all got a regular massive income by magic

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Wij
I see no necessary connection between me exercising 'freedom' and me imposing on others. It will in some cases certainly but not in all. Surely there are some actions that I can take that others are neutral to. People cannot give a shit about every single thing I do. That seems absurd. Everything may be interlinked, I don't mind whether that's true or not but it does not follow that there are no actions that I can perform which are morally neutral to others.

it isn't necessary. that's freedom for you. if you don't look out it will bite you on the ankle. really, I do indeed not mind everything you do, but I could be bothered by your very existence. am I not "free" to do so? imo the last part of your comment is a really good one. it *does* follow, to me at least. nobody is truly neutral towards a person or situation they are confronted with imo. you can't do anything at all without being judged by your peers.

woo tired now. sense making hard

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Wij
Surely there are some actions that I can take that others are neutral to. People cannot give a shit about every single thing I do. That seems absurd. Everything may be interlinked, I don't mind whether that's true or not but it does not follow that there are no actions that I can perform which are morally neutral to others.

Wij matey, I can almost guarentee that even you breathing in air is going to concern someone somewhere, the nature of society is exactly that, people being responsible for actions and not assuming that they have no effect.

As TdC said, the very act of just living within an orderly society is imposing the restriction on others not to beat your brains out if they feel like it.

 

[granny]

Originally posted by Will.
And, it harm no one, do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.

That pretty much sums it up for me, well said Will.

I suppose I would equate true liberty as the freedom from basic needs and oppression of any kind. Our society, worldwide, can easily afford to free the world's population from basic needs such as hunger and shelter but we don't manage it, instead pissing the world's resources away on useless shit like trident missiles. We could also free everyone from oppression based on class, race, religion, but that would be more of a struggle I think.

Equality I think is inherant in my idea of what liberty is - and it has nothing to do with everyone being the same, in fact exactly the opposite. In my opinion it's capitalism that shoe-horns people into identical, conformist roles.

And Wij - I know what you mean about those posters, but you're talking about Stalinist soviet propaganda - a million miles away from what communism and socialism are about. Stalinism was really nothing except state-capitalism. The revolution was over as soon as Stalin's first 5-year plan came into effect.

What I dream of is a society where everyone is free to be who they want to be, provided that others aren't hurt in the process

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by xane


Wij matey, I can almost guarentee that even you breathing in air is going to concern someone somewhere, the nature of society is exactly that, people being responsible for actions and not assuming that they have no effect.

If that is the case then you have effectively defined action as "something which affects another person" and you have extended it to mean "and interferes with their freedom." In that case any action whether 'free' or not, it becomes irrelevant under this condition, will affect equality amongst other things.

Therefore it seems to me you have proved precisely the point you were attempting to deny that freedom and equality are on a direcct scale with each other at oppostite ends. Freedom being linked to any action whatsoever and inequality being an adverse effect on someone.

I don't see how you can get round this without having some morally neutral actions.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by granny


That pretty much sums it up for me, well said Will.

Me too but according to TdC and Cama no actions could ever meet this description

 

[Will]

You do have actions which do not affect other people. But they would have to overcome nit-picking small-mindedness first.

I realise that could seem like a dig at some of the posts here but it isn't. People trying to control others for the wrong reasons stifling their freedoms really gets on my nerves. Why can't a dye my hair a stupid color, get all the piercings and tattoos I want, and still have a career?

 

[xane]

I thought I said it was freedom and _liberty_, although I suspect we may be using different views of what "liberty" is.

Outside of society there are certainly many actions that you can consider to be "morally neutral", but once you've agreed to enter an orderly community of like minded individuals, you have already accepted that your actions need responsibility and cannot be neutral.

I'm not arguing freedom/equality/liberty as such, just trying to say the conceptual view of it is often misunderstood, because of the nature of society.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Will.
Why can't a dye my hair a stupid color, get all the piercings and tattoos I want, and still have a career?

You mean apart from in nu-metal ?

The serious answer is exactly what I am trying to demonstrate, if I were to refuse you employment based on your appearance surely that's MY right as an employer ? Why should "freedom" always be interpreted as what YOU want ?

As I said, true freedom is given away, not demanded from others.

 

[granny]

Yeah, of course you couldn't every have "total liberty" as in "complete freedom to do whatever you wanted to anyone at any time" or else you'd have complete social breakdown and anarchy (apologies for the careless use of the term anarchy to any anarchists or ex-anarchists in here throddy ).

I suppose the semantics of it hinge around the concept of society - if you're not part of it (ie. abandoned on a desert island for ever or something) then who gives a fuck what you do?

 

[Wij]

Just because you are in a society though does not mean that every action is infringing on someone else. There must be plenty of things I can do which fall within Will's commandment

 

[Will]

After a nights sleep I see what Xane (look, I called you xane) is saying. Does freedom include the right to descriminate against me because of the way I dress? Everyones opinion of freedom will be slightly different, and bound to clash.

But I'll just hope in an ideal world, everyone would think the same way as me (as in the "it harm no one" thing, not as in being walking talking Will clones)

 

[dysfunction]

I think an ideal world would be extremely boring...because everyone would have to be very similar in the way things were done. If not then peoples ideas of what is ideal will be vastly different and would then be impossible to satisfy everyone's ideal.

If this was the case then there would be no conflicting ideas and therefore everything will become pretty mundane and stale.

The only way things move forward is because people challenge others ideas and opinions creating competition and creativity.

 

[Sir Frizz]

Originally posted by dysfunction


The only way things move forward is because people challenge others ideas and opinions creating competition and creativity.

And weapons of mass destruction?

 

[Nylex]

Originally posted by Wij
So, who has strong political beliefs and who has been an activist of some sort ?

Not me, politics is really boring.

 

[Wij]

*oppress Nylex*

 

[Testin da Cable]

*remove equality from Nylex*

 

[dysfunction]

*steals all of nylex's belongings*

 

[mank!]

SEE THE VIOLENCE INHEIRITING THE SYSTEM!

HELP, HELP, I'M BEING OPRESSED!



Monty Python is teh win!

 

[Nylex]

Originally posted by dysfunction
*steals all of nylex's belongings*

Fuck off.