teh politick

[echo]

-4, -4


I've gone up and right since the last time.. Hmmmmmm

 

[MYstIC G]

Originally posted by Munkey-
I am............Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 0.36

Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 0.31



ARRRRAGH I'M NEAR MUNKEY!

 

[granny]

Originally posted by .snoopy
I've gone up and right since the last time.. Hmmmmmm

Getting old, getting old, got a mortgage?

 

[granny]

Originally posted by stu
The political compass is a total waste of time - the terms are far too broad, and the questions themselves are very badly worded.

Yeah it's broad, but it doesn't claim to be anything other that a *slightly* more in-depth descriptor than the traditional Left <---> Right line.

Obviously everyone's political views are vastly complex but a natural part of humans as social creatures is that we bnd together, it makes us stronger, we can acheive things together we can't even conceive of alone, and as such we like to group ourselves into political groupings - however inadequately they truly match our ideas. Saying "I'm a Labour voter" (and I am) gives people a *very* quick idea of where I'm coming from, etc.

 

[echo]

Getting old, getting old... got...

Hang on a second, I'm not yet 18.

 

[Testin da Cable]

this thread would have been alot more funny if it had been named "teh politock", or better, "teh polycock"

 

[Wij]

Liberty > Equality

discuss...

 

[Testin da Cable]

um if all were truely free, they would be equal by default?

 

[granny]

True liberty is impossible without absolute equality.

 

[Wij]

In what respects should people be equal ? And define 'true' liberty. That better not mean 'the kind of liberty i think you should have.'

 

[xane]

Originally posted by granny
True liberty is impossible without absolute equality.

So that's why they put an X on the end !

 

[Testin da Cable]

imo it is not possible to be really free, nor for all to be equal in every respect. a bit picky and definition dependant though

 

[Wij]

Obviously absolute equality is impossible. We'd all have to be the same size and occupy the same piece of space-time There are always going to be thousands of differences between people. It depends what you count as relevant in your definition of equality.

My point is that liberty prevents equality. If we are free to do what we like with our lives (I won't complicate it by bringing in possessions or money) then some of us will make good decisions and some of us will make bad ones. I may fall over in a drunken stupor and lose a leg. I'm now at a disadvantage to you because I was free to be an arse.

Since liberty prevents equality and I would rather be free-ish than equal-ish I propose that Liberty > Equality.

All dissenters vill be shot at dawn !!!!1

(or I may just attempt a discussion with them... whatever)

 

[Testin da Cable]

indeed true that some of the free group will be more successful than others. however I don't go for the disadvantage crap. it doesn't make you any less free than you were before you got drunk. you'll have to do better than that

 

[Testin da Cable]

on a side note, you'll have to define the terms of liberty and equality before you can even begin to weigh them at all. done that yet? eh?

 

[Wij]

I didn't say you were less free. You are just as free as you were.

 

[xane]

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Wij
I didn't say you were less free. You are just as free as you were.

thank you cama

ah true that. but because everyone else is free also, some will help you and some won't. just like before, unless you're adding survivability into the mix too heh.

 

[Wij]

Hmm. Interesting pic

My problem with left-wing ideology is summed up in those old communist propaganda posters. Rows of nearly identical workers all working together for 'the greater good.' It fills me with horror tbh. The idea of making people as 'equal as possible' always seems to be a thinly veiled attempt to mould them into the type of person the idealist would like you all to be. Personally I want to be exactly the kind of preson I want to be and couldn't give a shit if I don't match someone's ideal.

 

[Wij]

OK - different example. Everyone starts off equal with 10,000 quid. I'm a nerd and invest it wisely. I become well off. You pissed yours up the wall. I can now afford all the best games and all the birds fancy me. Plainly we are no longer in an egalitarian situation.

How can you stop this situation without restricting people's freedom ?

 

[Will]

Shall I drag my bizarre priestly status into this?

And, it harm no one, do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.

I've always felt that was a good compromise for liberty.

As for the equality thing, its not practical, even in a communist utopia. We can go some way towards it, but never 100%.

 

[~YuckFou~]

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 0.05
My marker appears right in the middle of both axis.



I'm neutral? I think not.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Wij
How can you stop this situation without restricting people's freedom ?

The basic answer is to stop mistaking "freedom" for a right that is somehow foisted from other people. No-one has the freedom to do what they please simply because some freedoms intrude on others'.

Freedom AND liberty are not two haves of the same cake, they are actually opposite ideals and the answer is for them to meet in the miiddle, that means less freedom on one side and more respect on the other.

Political minded people use "freedom" and "liberty" as sticks to beat each other without regard to the crippled society that needs them to walk on.

Bollocks, I've used up all my analogies for today.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by xane


The basic answer is to stop mistaking "freedom" for a right that is somehow foisted from other people. No-one has the freedom to do what they please simply because some freedoms intrude on others'.

In the example I have not infringed on the drinking chappie in any way. There are enough ways that freedom of choice can lead to inequality without it being a case of me taking advantage of anyone.

 

[Testin da Cable]

that is indeed so. I must agree with camaxane though. you can not judge liberty against equality unless you mutate the concepts by imposing some rule set apon them. they just are in the ballpark together but they aren't the same game jools.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Wij
In the example I have not infringed on the drinking chappie in any way. There are enough ways that freedom of choice can lead to inequality without it being a case of me taking advantage of anyone.

That depends, was your "investment" a shareholding in a brewery ? Many people claim they have no interest or concern for other people's activities, but in a civilised society this is unavoidable, there is always some chains of events that can be linked.

 

[Wij]

For the sake of argument we could assume that he bought his booze from the alcopop-space-aliens it doesn't really matter. The fact is that we can change our circumstances to our advantage or disadvantage without necessarily fucking anyone over (although we could do that too obviously.)

 

[MYstIC G]

Originally posted by Wij
OK - different example. Everyone starts off equal with 10,000 quid. I'm a nerd and invest it wisely. I become well off. You pissed yours up the wall. I can now afford all the best games and all the birds fancy me. Plainly we are no longer in an egalitarian situation.

How can you stop this situation without restricting people's freedom ?

Every six months you keep giving people 10,000, that way they all have the same "worth" but can still spunk the money how they choose. Then they have nobody to blame but themselves for there own position.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
that is indeed so. I must agree with camaxane though. you can not judge liberty against equality unless you mutate the concepts by imposing some rule set apon them. they just are in the ballpark together but they aren't the same game jools.

They certainly aren't the same game but they sometimes effect each other. I just value my freedom very highly and despise the idea that I should feel guilty if I have more money/sex than someone alse. And before you say it I felt just the same when I was a poverty-stricken young virgin too

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by MYstIC G
Every six months you keep giving people 10,000, that way they all have the same "worth" but can still spunk the money how they choose. Then they have nobody to blame but themselves for there own position.

Where does the 10,000 come from then ? And they are still unequal cos I'll have 10,000 plus my regular investment income.