Fact Teaching poor kids to be killers (with a slant)...

[Scouse]

Labour are considering setting up Military Schools in each region of the UK with a focus on "raising aspirations" in poor communities.

On the face of it (and certainly as presented by the BBC) it sounds like a good idea. Problem-areas sorted by a bit of the stick and strong discipline, eh?

Yet to me it sounds very much like instituted military recruitment of the poor - just like in the US where the cannon-fodder mostly comes from poor black communities where the state has given up on giving them a proper education and instead recruits heavily into the meat-grinder end of the armed forces (with obvious, predictable and spectacular results).

However the real and (predictably) hidden story and what is far more interesting (and scary) is the hand of religion in the idea.

Never an instituion to shy away from producing young people all-too-eager to kill in the name of [bleh] the church is running this show in the form of Phillip Blond. He's the anglican theologian who is founder and director of ResPublica - the think-tank that's floated the idea and former student of John Milbank (who's on the board of ResPublica and a former student of Rowan Williams - the former Archbishop of Cantebury). Between them they are pushing the idea of Radical Orthodoxy - a religious-themed and anti-libertarian replacement for the Social Sciences.

As an aside Mr Blond is one of the chief architects of David Cameron's "big society" - giving me a nice warming feeling that, in their hearts, religionists don't care which side of the political coin they're providing social policy for - as long as they're the ones providing it.


So. Religion and military as a state-sponsored educational mix for the poor? Sounds faaaaaan-tastic.

 

[rynnor]

Onward Christian soldiers...

Realistically the Army is one of the few possible careers for kids who cant settle academically - other than the dole of course.

I dont think its a terrible idea tbh - it's presumably reserved for kids who are otherwise heading to prison eventually.

A bit of stability is no bad thing for such kids + positive male role models - if its done right it could be good.

If its done right...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Gives more options to poor kids(and others) and it doesn't mean they're just training killers. By that logic every man and some volunteer women in Finladn would be killers as we've got mandatory service

REligion won't have that much effect on it to be honest, military tactics still dictate the battlefield and they still can't invade willynilly.

 

[Scouse]

Realistically the Army is one of the few possible careers for kids who cant settle academically

IMO that misses the point.

It's being mooted for poor kids - not kids who can't achieve academically - because talent comes from all ends of the financial scale. To quote myself:

[it's] instituted military recruitment of the poor ... where the state has given up on giving them a proper education

"We can't train 'em - so stick 'em in the army". It reduces the poor to drone jobs. They may not all go into the military but it sells the naturally talented amongst them down the swanny. No such thing as "social mobility" from that group...

I also think that, though military-types could well be strong role models I don't think people with a well-drilled ability to follow and give orders and a reluctance to challenge authority are necessarily positive ones.

And that's the point. It's an anti-liberal anglican religious think-tank that has proposed this, full in the knowledge that kids who are taught to not challenge authority are more likely to accept the teachings of the church - which is taking a battering in this country. Obedience is also a very handy trait to have running through the backbone of your population if you're a politician. Makes life a lot easier.

This smacks of collusion between our political leaders and the church to produce obedient and unquestioning drones from the unruly disadvantaged.

To doctor what you're saying:

If its done right...we get Starship Troopers

...

 

[old.Tohtori]

But the starship troopers get the job done

 

[DaGaffer]

Do You Want To Know More?


Devil is in the detail on this one; on the one hand, I'm naturally suspicious of its backers, on the other, this type of setup doesn't necessarily equate to making the next generation of cannon fodder; the British Army can get enough of those straight off the dole queue; its entirely possible for military school to churn out officer candidates as well as other ranks. I also think if you believe the British military wants "obedient and unquestioning drones", you don't really understand how the system works; the British Military, by necessity, requires far more independent thinking amongst its ranks than say, the Russian military. Not questioning the chain of command isn't the same as being and unthinking drone.

The biggest problem with this kind of setup is that it could end up churning out far more potential personnel than our diminished military needs or can afford.

 

[Scouse]

Not questioning the chain of command isn't the same as being and unthinking drone.

"Go there and kill these people."

"Yes sir"

And some not-so-random quotes:

What is absurd and monstrous about war is that men who have no personal quarrel should be trained to murder one another in cold blood.

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth
...
Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war

Or the other side of the coin, from the wife of a funadmentalist christian and supporter of this sort of educational thing :

Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths...I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?

I still can't believe she said it

 

[DaGaffer]

"Go there and kill these people."

"Yes sir"

Yes, because that's a typical order . In fact in the British army that would be an illegal order.

And some not-so-random quotes:

Huxley was right, but just because he's right doesn't mean such a thing isn't necessary. As for Einstein, I'd agree with the first part of the statement (as I've already said, unthinking is the key), but as for the second part, his own actions show that refusal isn't always an option, or indeed, the right thing to do. Einstein is stating a fact, but his own actions show its not actually a course of action he supported.

As for Barbara Bush, ffs Scouse.

 

[Scouse]

Yes, because that's a typical order . In fact in the British army that would be an illegal order.

But it's exactly what happens tho, isn't it.

As for Barbara Bush, ffs Scouse.

 

[Vae]

This idea of military schools and the reaction of the public reminds me very much of a scene from Yes Prime Minister in reference to conscription:

[Sir Humphrey demonstrates how public surveys can reach opposite conclusions]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there is lack of discipline and vigorous training in our Comprehensive Schools?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think young people welcome some structure and leadership in their lives?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do they respond to a challenge?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Might you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?
Bernard Woolley: Er, I might be.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes or no?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Of course, after all you've said you can't say no to that. On the other hand, the surveys can reach opposite conclusions.
[survey two]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Are you unhappy about the growth of armaments?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think it's wrong to force people to take arms against their will?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Would you oppose the reintroduction of conscription?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
[does a double-take]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: There you are, Bernard. The perfectly balanced sample

 

[Wij]

I was going to float the Starship Troopers angle myself. This would make a great film!

(but a shit reality to live in)

 

[gohan]

Rome did this, or more accurately Gaius Marius started doing it then the likes of Pompey, Julius Caesar and Gauis Octavius (Augustus) carried it on, using the poor as soldiers is what turned them from a reoublic into and empire that controlled more or less the whole of Europe and the middle east as well as north Africa.
I see no issue

 

[Scouse]

I see no issue

Really?

You seem to profess to know a bit about Rome. Do you not percieve the irony in copying a failure?

A failure with a 2000+ year hangover made worse by the horrors of their institutionalisation of christianity?

 

[old.user4556]

Human nature in once sentence surely? We never fucking learn.

 

[gohan]

Really?

You seem to profess to know a bit about Rome. Do you not percieve the irony in copying a failure?

A failure with a 2000+ year hangover made worse by the horrors of their institutionalisation of christianity?

It didn't fail for 700 years. Something that lasts as long as that isn't a bad idea on it's own, someone has to majorly fuck it up along the way. Fall of the republic/rise of the empire is all pre christianity, that's the part where the capite censi (head count) army was introduced.

 

[gohan]

also it could be argued that Rome still rules the world, not by strength or arms but by being the epicenter of the biggest and richest religious organisation on the globe. The catholic church still have shit loads of power to be fair so even tho they no longer have a Caesar, they have basically just replaced them with a pope. Infact pontifex maximus just means greatest preist, and was a title given to the high preist of Rome in the time of the old gods. Julius Caesar was dictator and pontifex maximus and Augustus was emporer and pontifex maximus. So the pope has ruled ther world for over 2k years xD

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah, can't say that rome failed(to use a somewhat inappropriate internet slang to describe a historical event ), it just fell. It had a hell of a run that rivals any modern civilization.

These days if someone pulled that off, they'd do even better due to all the tech advancements.

But seriously, it all comes down to how badly you react to religions involvement. It's not actually that big of a deal.

 

[Wij]

Labour is researching Fanaticism:

All your units get +1 attack and your cities cannot revolt. Libraries and Universities stop producing science.

 

[Raven]

It depends entirely on the person, obviously it depends on that person and their willingness.

The army can teach you all sorts of things. Leadership, teamwork, responsibility, accountability a sense of self worth. Plus, often a trade. My cousin entered the army with nothing and left with a sense of direction, he now owns and runs his own plumbing and maintenance company in Australia and is doing very well for himself.