Suggestions for BWCSL next season

[RogueOne]

I know it may seem a bit early to be saying this, with BWCSL just at the end of week 4, but I'm hoping to get the new season underway very soon after the end of this one. Therefore, if anybody has any suggestions for the new season with regard to rules and maplists, this is the thread to put them in.

Current plans for the next season, based upon a few conversations among the admins and with players from various clans are:

5v5: This seems to be the norm these days and I see no reason to change it. Large enough to allow for decent tactics and small enough to be managable.

CO scoring: the CPL uses MR12, but a lot of European clans can't stand MR12, so I think it'd be a good thing for at least one major league to stick with CO scoring. If nothing else, it means that there's actually some choice for CO fans.

8 teams per division: we had toyed with expanding the divisions from 8 teams to 10, if we could get another server (which is by no means certain). However, various people have successfully tried to convince me that this would require us to use maps which are not up to the standard required for league play. If BWCSL expands (this has yet to be decided), it will likely be through the addition of divisions 4c, 5a and 5b.

Friendly Fire On: a couple of clans have requested that ff be turned off, but the vast majority of people seem to prefer ff on.

C4 timer: This is an issue that some people seem to feel quite strongly about. Currently, we set this to 30 seconds. However, should people prefer it, I think that a change to a longer timer (35 or 40 seconds, perhaps) could well be accommodated in future seasons.

No knife rounds: a few clans seem to expect knife rounds at the start of games to determine who goes as which side first. However, my personal view is that the current system, whereby fixtures are balanced so that every team is T first either 3 or 4 times is fairer.

Map-list:

Perhaps the most contravertial aspect of planning any season and no doubt the area that will attract the most debate. Based on feedback from clans over the last few weeks, it seems that most would prefer we stuck with de_ maps only, no matter how much 1.4 improves the hostage code. The map-list is currently very much open to debate and I welcome any suggestions. The only maps I will not consider are custom maps, since the potential for problems that these create is too high. The current list, drawn up after speaking to a few clans at some length is:

de_aztec - A favorite for many clans and a good map for the snipers. Long-range combat favours the clans with better AWP skills. Difficult for the Ts, this should make a good change from the rushier maps.

de_cbble - A lot of people have expressed disappointment that this map wasn't used this season. I can understand this, since it's one of the better rushy maps in the game. If at all possible, I'd like to get it back in the cycle for next season.

de_dust2 - The ultimate T-rush map. Very hard for CTs to defend, but still a popular map. Always seems to give high-scoring matches for obvious reasons.

de_inferno - The 1.3 version of inferno seems to be a very popular map and it's ideal for league matches. This is the one map that *nobody* has yet asked me to remove, believe it or not.

de_nuke - A personal favorite and a very decent map for clan matches. We've used this as the first map of the season for the last two seasons and it was used for the final in the knockout tournament before that. I see no reason to drop it from the list.

de_prodigy - Another of the very old maps. I have had a fair number of requests to drop this one, but at the same time, I've had a few fairly strong pleas to keep it in. Since it gave us some excellent matches this season, I'm inclined to keep it.

de_train - The only map on the current season's cycle not used in the last season. Train's introduction seems to have been a success. The lack of map-knowledge displayed by a few clans has held them back on it this season, but I see nothing wrong with having a map capable of causing a few surprises in the league.

I would point out again that *none* of this should be considered final and that I'm open to suggestions on all aspects of the stuff above. Remember, if you don't tell me your opinions, I can't act on them.

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

I'm going to push hard for MR12 CO is just too rushy imo, it leaves no thought as to how to manage your funds, as T if you have no money, simply rush in and die. Not much thought required. Ts aren't hamstrung by the 'we're going to have very little time to play with, must rush' mentality. Slow buildups, hallelujah

C4timer to 35, good, taking out dust, GOOOOD

That'll do then

 

[old.splidge]

From what I've seen of the hostage code in 1.4 so far I don't see why we shouldn't give one or two of the less offensive cs_ maps a chance (e.g. cs_office, cs_italy). It's not like we're playing for serious money anyway (or indeed anything for those not in div1).

cs_ maps would add variety and would you allow you to extend the divisions (to 9 clans without an extra server or 10 clans with one).

9 clan divisions have the advantage that each clan can be T and CT exactly 4 times each, but it means each clan has to miss a map, although you could use this to add some flexibility maybe? (if one clan can't make it the "spare" clan for that week can step in instead, fixtures permitting).

Anyway, cs_ maps are good for a change..

/me dons flame-proof suit

splidge

 

[old.splidge]

Oh, and yes, set c4timer to 35.

And don't use MR12. Lame campy spam all round; if you want to hide behind boxes all day go play DoD or something (or play in some other league ).

CO forces clans to find the pace which is best for them; it isn't automatically "rush as fast as you can." If taking it slightly slower gives you a better chance of winning a round then you can do that. If you can avoid having to do eco-rushes then the CTs don't get $16k so easily. And so on.

splidge

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

I agree, CO is fine if you can avoid lots of ecoing. But this only happens when the T side is winning rounds, which lets face it is hard on most de maps. If you don't have the money to be fully kitted out, then the opposition most likely do. So it makes sense to waste a mere 30 seconds and eco.

I'd hardly call maxrounds campy, normally the round time is reduced to 3 or 4 mins, so theres still a time pressure on the attackers. MR is essentially CO without the ecoing, as it still comes down to how many rounds you win as the 'harder' side.

 

[old.ollyitus]

CO scoring is the only way to go :]. It makes the matches much more exiting.

Unlike most people I think that the c4timer setting is fine how it is. If you use charges only scoring and have a long c4 timer it will be harder to score points as T, making a dodgy result (ie: worse clan wins by luck) more likely.

FF should stay on :] . . . its just better. . . and we got about 6 from our enemies in our last match hehe

and also aztec should be in instead of one of the poorer maps. . and because I am an awp freak as well


another point:
I think roundtime should be increased to 25 minutes :].

 

[RogueOne]

If you read the post above, Aztec *is* in. I don't like the map much myself, but I recognise the importance of sniping in CS and the need to have a sniper-oriented map in the league.

And yes, I see your point about the bomb timer, although I'm not sure if I agree. I don't disagree, either, but I've yet to be convinced either way.

 

[Skyler]

Do not add CS_ maps at all, they are not terribly good, even with improved hostage code they will suck, they usually end up being about hunting down the T's rather than rescuing hossies.

The maps Rogue1 mentioned above are all good and will all offer great games, its stupid adding a CS_ map which not many of the better clans ever practice..

Bomb timer is ok at 30 I have no gripes with it, but 35 might be better. Having the 35 second timer wont affect T's time that much. Most CO games were and are with 35 second timers....

I think that whats more important than most of these things is the division layout. I am talking about the clans in each division, and the naming of them....

Cant we have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ? or add Premiership at the top ? It might make things simpler, because atm I've been told that 2a and 2b are the same level divisions, just different names, they are like parallel. I would think having individually numbered divisions would increase importance of every division...

Also the clans in these divisions need to be sorted, some clans arent suited to the top flight at all, and some are to good for the bottom divisions. Would be nice to not have a weak team in a division which every clan is sure to beat, if it was even competition in the division all the way, it would be so much more fun as the league progresses, much closer and tigher right to the end. I know its difficult to get clans with same skills in same divisions, but I think we can do a better job than what there is now....

Dinners ready so off I go

 

[RogueOne]

Linear divisions have been discussed, but they're pretty much impossible. Ok, you can get a single div1 and with a lot of effort you could probably split divs 2a and 2b into 2 and 3, but you could never sort out the tangle that is div3 and div4 would probably also be difficult. Since there are only prizes for div1, I don't see that this makes a massive difference, anyway.

I know that some clans shouldn't be in the divisions they are. However, this is a problem that arises from this being only the second season and the long gaps between seasons, which give a lot clans time to improve or backslide massively. Hopefully, as we get more seasons and as the gap between seasons shrinks (I'm aiming for a month at the absolute most and hopefully a good bit less) this problem will fix itself.

 

[mr_greedy]

My two pennies' worth:

Personnally I'd prefer to see maxrounds scoring - I think it promotes a bit more innovation in tactics on-the-fly as it were. However, this isn't a big issue - the cream will rise to the top over the course of a season however matches are scored.

I would prefer a slightly longer C4 timer - 35 or 40. With the trend towards larger and larger maps it's becoming very difficult to get from one BS to another to react to a bomb plant.

From what I've seen of the hostage code in 1.4, I don't think there would be a major problem with including a couple of cs_ maps, especially as Ts can no longer fool about moving hostages. Italy is the stand-out candidate, and Office would be worth considering. Militia isn't in the frame though IMO.

I would like to see Cobble back - it's got a good mix of tight corridor and wide-open sniping territory. Likewise I'm quite disappointed you didn't mention Dust - it's very difficult to get tired of. With the exception of Inferno, the 1.3 maps aren't up to the job for competition - another season down the line it might be worth considering Chateau. Of the current list, Dust2 and Prodigy would be my candidates for the drop.

Regarding the league structure, I agree the best bet would be to cram in another sub-division at a couple of levels (e.g. 4C). If possible it might make sense to play some games on a fourth night (Monday?), but obviously this would make further demands on servers and admin staff.

 

[RogueOne]

Cobble is still in there, if you look. Second map on the list, I think (they're alphabetical). We've had a lot of requests to bring back cobble. Dust isn't in there. Contrary to what you say, I've had a lot of clans claim to be tired of dust and I think that to give it a break for a season would be no bad things. If you're desperate for your fix of it, I believe jolt do a dust-only league.

Militia wouldn't be a candidate even if we brought back CS maps. Although I'm currently leaning against the idea of bringing back CS maps, if we were to do so, office and italy would be the only real options.

As for chateau... who knows? I've played the 1.4 beta and it seems OK, but it's too early to tell yet.

As for the organisation of any expansion, this is still under discussion. Ideally, we'd like to be able to run onto a 4th night, but we don't know if the servers will be available for this. The other option is to move to 4 games per night, which is possible if we get strict about start times and is already the norm in the Q3 leagues, I believe.

 

[mr_greedy]

D'oh, my bad.
Much as I like Dust I agree it wouldn't hurt to make a change for a while (especially if you're planning on speeding up the season turn-around times).
As for Jolt's Get Dusted, that's a bit of a running joke - it's been "about to start" for at least a year. The words piss-up and brewery spring to mind - I await to see if their DoD league is up to Barrysworld's standard (shame noone at BW seems to be interested in a BWDoDL )

 

[old.M0nk]

5v5: - Yup, good balance
CO scoring: - agree it should be kept, from an admin point of view and a players point of view.

8 teams per division, or more divisions, happy to help with either.
Friendly Fire On: yes yes yes.
C4 timer: as is.
No knife rounds: great fun, but a time waster when you are pushed for time (as an admin)

Map-list:

de_aztec
de_cbble
de_dust2
de_inferno
de_nuke
de_prodigy
de_train

I love vertigo, but thats just me.

uke:

 

[old.Man_s]

Im my opinion, all leagues should be coming ever closer to each other in terms of rules, maps, etc. If you want a league to be competitive, I believe that's the way to go. For a fun league, then different sets of rules are welcome... On to the opinion.

.The maplist is just fine, no need to change it at all, leave cs_ maps out.

.I would prefer MR12 over CO any day, in fact, my clan is only competing in 2 CO leagues: BWCSL and our national league, with the latter changing to MR12 for next season. MR12 is the way to go.

.c4timer = 35. It's the way it is in the other leagues, can't see why BWCSL should be any different.

.No knife rounds - Agree. You don't see footballers taking penalties to see who can pick which side of the field do you? Coin toss, let lady luck decide.

Anyway, that's what we think.

 

[[A&I]Lilly Monster]

1. DON'T change to MR12, CO is the way to keep it if u want fast paced interesting games, If u wanan go camp in lame places go join a diff league.

2. Dust . Although it's my all time favourite for clan matches I can understand how giving it a miss 1 season could be good.

3. CS_maps, don't bother :/. As Skyler said, contrary to our hopes/wishes, the hostages would get ignored and it would become a "Hunt the Ts" situation.

4. The Divisions need some re-evaluation. The way its done now with 3a/3b/3c/etc is good but something extra is needed. I would highly recommend a Premiership Div for multiple reasons. 1stly it shows a sense of achievement and everyone loves that . 2ndly we need to spread the clans better between divs, they are unbalanced quite badly atm. 3rdly it would give more people a chance to play with some extra divisions. Thus with a Prem I'd go something like: Prem, 1a/1b, 2a/2b, 3a/3b/3c, 4a/4b. With maybe another div added in to 2 or 3. This gives 10 or 11 divs, which is only up to 16 more clans so wouldn't take too much extra organising, and if it takes off we can expand it further in future seasons.

5. Behaviour... A touchy subject but the behaviour of some clans in and after matches is unacceptable, and while some seem hesitant to address this, I for 1 would like to see a 0 tolerance policy of unacceptable behaviour, so the overall enjoyment of the league isn't ruined for the masses by a select few.

Well that's my thoughts and being as Rogue1 is my lover I expect to see these changes .

 

[RogueOne]

While I must sadly disappoint our gossip-mongers and say that I Did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Lillymonster, he does make a few points I ought to reply to.

I'm not quite sure what having a premiership would *really* achieve. As far as I can see, it would just be giving div1 a different name and adding a new division between the current divs 1 and 2. While I appreciate that this would allow more new clans into the league, I do not think that it would be the best way to do so. BWCSL has a huge waiting list, with immense pressure for new places, but this pressure is not focussed around the top end of the league. Indeed, I think we'd probably struggle to find 16 new clans on the list I have at the moment of the standard of our current divisions 1 and 2. The vast majority of our new applicants would most likely be at our current division 3 level, with a good few also being div4 standard.

I agree that we need to spread the clans slightly more evenly between divisions, but at the moment, it's blatantly divisions 3 and 4 which are the most unbalanced. I would hope that by adding a new division 4 as well as two division 5s we might be able to relieve this pressure somewhat. Ideally, I think we would be able to raise the standard of division 3 somewhat while giving those clans who currently struggle to stay in it (but who don't get demoted due to the relative lack of mobility out of division 3) a chance for a fairer competition in an expanded division 4, while allowing the clans who currently struggle in div4, most of whom just play for fun, to compete in division 5. Or maybe we could even make the division 5s HPB divisions, for which I've had a few requests.

As far as behaviour goes, I do share your concerns over the behaviour of some clans, before, during and after matches. I already encourage admins to take measures if they encounter abuse in the game and clans which are persistent problems this season will not be invited to re-enter.

 

[[A&I]Lilly Monster]

I think u misunderstood what I meant by adding a Prem Div. I didn't mean ADD another top lvl div, what I mean was renaming the current div1 - Prem, then subsequent shifts down the divs. 2a/b becomes 1a/b, the currently better clans of div 3 become 2a/b, the best of div 4 and rest of div 3 (the largest proportion I should think) become div 3a/b/c and the lest good clans go into div 4a/b. With this and clans added in appropriatly, I think it would work well.

 

[Skyler]

Dont add any cs_ maps at all!

They are crap and will end up boring the pants off people, I've played cs_ maps with CO rules and they are nowhere near as dynamic or exciting as de_ maps...

As for the suggestion of Office, no way, never, not a chance.....

Office is an appalling map, its just a no skill map really, its all close quarters with a huge amount of routes to whichever place, the T's have to rush to win which doesnt work in CO very well.

Italy is the only decent cs_ map and even that is boring compared to the quality 8 de_ maps we have to choose from. I would take dust over any cs_ map...

Dust may be old and perhaps overplayed but its better than the cs_ maps...

Please dont let this league turn into another ECSL

 

[old.Smeg]

C4 timer set to 35 seconds

5 divisions instead of 4 (Div3 to become div 3 and 4)

Keep everything else the same FF on, C/o (MR zzzzzzzzzz)

Also - make new tables rigid - so if one clan leaves and defaults - all teams in table should receive same default win and clan is not replaced until next season (unfair to those that have to play full set of matches to earn points)

Maps - keep same except swap Dust for a CS map (Office/Italy) maybe excluding Div1 ?

 

[Skyler]

They are swapping Cobble in and moving dust out............


So no need for a cacky cs_ map

 

[old.Lemming]

/me takes out his m3 and goes after de_train

 

[[A&I]Lilly Monster]

Aw lets put in a cs_map just to annoy Skyler .

 

[Ch3tan]

as_oilrig, if nothing else as a pre/post season fun game.

 

[old.fiasco]

I have read all of the above, the abuse aimed at cs maps is a little unwarranted. Surely if playing co, then the only way to score is to rescue the hossies, so wouldnt turn in to a hunt the T.

Also what is ecoing plz.

I have played cs for about 18months, though this is my first year in a league, so im new; thus i have more scope to be wrong, if you wish to correct me, dont be horrible just put me right thanx.

 

[Skyler]

It would be faster to kill the T's as they are defending the hossies....

But what happens is one T will run to CT spawn and hide there to use up time, while the CT's try and rescue hossies....

It turns into a boring game....

de_ maps have no such problem, the CT's cant run and hide if the bombs planted, and if they have the bomb they guard it, they hardly run and hide....

It just makes for a better closer game

 

[RogueOne]

Just to clear up fiasco's confusion... in CO scoring, all wins as the attacker side are valid, not just wins that come from the completion of the map objectives. So hunting down and killing all enemies will get you a point, as well as rescuing hossies/planting the bomb.

 

[Skyler]

^ what he said.

 

[old.orcas]

As usual, Skyler with the far-right opinions (hello bud)

As much as I disliked CO rules to start off with I do agree that it ensures we don't have to deal with camping Terrors - since there is no other way to avoid this

I'm undecided about cs_ maps - they will add diversity to the league and the game style so that "the better clans", as Skyler puts it, don't hold the absolute monopoly! To counter this though, cs_ maps may turn into hunt the terrorists as skyler so gracefully put it But I would like to add my own point on the matter and say that the Ts should be covering the Hossies so in order for CT to win they would have to go through and therefore eliminate the Ts - does that constitute as "Hunting"? And if they don't cover the hossies where's the harm in setting up ambushes for the CTs when they try and rescue them? After further consideration I have to say I'm for cs_ maps!

As for the League something does need to be done about the lack of movement in 3 and the un-equal skill level as well! I can only see adding more divisions as the only solution but I think it should be left to the admins' discretion as I'm sure they can see the full picture better than I and all!

oa

 

[old.Cybernaut]

LEAGUE

Hello.
Well heres my twopenneth worth.
Mr12 rules ( 3 min rounds)
35 secs timer
At least 1 unusual(but good) map, like clan_mill1 or Assault2k, along with Cobble, dust2, Estate, Aztec, Inferno and prodigy.

Also, to make the league better, let =]BAD[= in this time
Cyber

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

To anyone pushing for more top level divisions, the answer is simple. They're not needed. Looking at the waiting list, I see 2 clans that could compete at the current div2 standard, i: and m2s. Noone else really sticks out as having a record at that level.

As to the whole MR vs CO thing: yes, CO gives a faster paced game. However, the standard has now shifted very much towards MR for competition, and as BW is one of the premier Euro leagues its going to be tough to say 'no, we're gonna play it THIS way'. Another bonus to using MR is easier integration of cs_ maps, as there is less incentive for the T side to waste time.

But theres something else thats been knocking on the door and been trying to get my attention. Where are the 'top' clans? The likes of I-Es, noc, ui? Looking at the current UK scene, there are at best 3, at worst 1 of the current div 1 that I would say are in the top 8 teams I could pick, and even then thats including a european side (HS).

I don't know if its MR thats keeping such clans away, has anyone asked? Having played Q3 for a long period, I notice the BWCSL is somewhat a poor relation to the Q3 leagues in terms of standard of competition, looking at Q3 there are no clans that you can just say 'they should be in div1, why aren't they?' because they aren't in the league. Not so in CS, I could pick out at least 3 UK clans that could very easily win div1 that simply aren't there.

Is it them, or is it us?