Strangeness with 2H Weaponry

[aveh]

I was farming Savage Wyverns for xp for my buffbot today and I got to messing around with styles and such. Then I started playing around with 1H vs. 2H.

I've never noticed it before, but the styled damage that I get from a 2H weapon is about the same as the styled damage I get from a 1H weapon, taking weapon-spd into account. The only additional damage that 2H weapons seem to do is base/unstyled damage.

(For the record, I'm a skald. During the test I had 252 str, 125 qui with 1H and 103 qui with 2H. The 1H weapon was a 99% Arc DB Axe 16.1/4.2 and the 2H was a MP arc war cleaver 16.5/5.3)

Is this the way it has always been? Does this seem as stupid to anyone else as it does to me? I'd always assumed that if Havoc style was going to increase my 1H base damage by 80% (to pick an approximate number), it would also increase my 2H base damage by 80%. Otherwise, the tradeoffs we make when using 2H over a 1H + shield just seem silly.

Then I checked this site -

http://www.councilofnine.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Styles

And its got a lot of complicated stuff, some of which is worthwhile to learn about, but what I got from it is that their calculations for styled damage do not take into account whether a weapon is 1H or 2H either D:

Could this all be true? Or am I just doing sucky styled damage coz I'm a weak skald. Input please, especially warriors who 2H and 2H Zerks/Savages.

 

[old.tuppe]

style dmg is offcourse from style, and mids use same styles in 1h and 2h.
alb/hibs use different style to 2h and those have better growthrates what our styles.
instead 2h have better basedmg comparing 1h if remember correct, this is same all 3 realms.
number what come in mind is 140% when compare 1h.

if you compare, compare dmg done in sec, but make long logs, 100 hits would be enough.

hmm well, hope you understand what i am after whit this, or/and someone write more about this.

 

[Belsameth]

2h has the advantage of using 1.5 times your str modifier when calculating base damage, so does 50% more unstyled damage

 

[scarffs]

They really should fix this and give Midgard a spec line for 2handers only, like in Hib and Albion.
Fair is fair, they nerfed La to oblivion, then give us 2handers .

 

[Belsameth]

Originally posted by scarffs
They really should fix this and give Midgard a spec line for 2handers only, like in Hib and Albion.
Fair is fair, they nerfed La to oblivion, then give us 2handers .

I'll gladly trade the alb 2h line for the Mid weapon speccing.
Mids can spec high shield and high 2 handed, while leaving decent amounts of points for Parry, where albs have to spec 2h and a damage type, making them unable to get slam without gimping their damage output.

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Belsameth
I'll gladly trade the alb 2h line for the Mid weapon speccing.
Mids can spec high shield and high 2 handed, while leaving decent amounts of points for Parry, where albs have to spec 2h and a damage type, making them unable to get slam without gimping their damage output.

Thats something that alot of the tank TL`s have been pushing for..

Either remove the double speccing from alb 2h weapons or keep the double speccing but increase the damage bonus you get from doing so.

I very much doubt alb will ever get a system similar to that of midgard. Its about the only unique thing midgard has currently.

 

[aveh]

Originally posted by *Belsameth*
I'll gladly trade the alb 2h line for the Mid weapon speccing.
Mids can spec high shield and high 2 handed, while leaving decent amounts of points for Parry, where albs have to spec 2h and a damage type, making them unable to get slam without gimping their damage output.

My mid can't spec high shield. In fact, he can't spec shield at all. Neither can all the zerkers and savages out there. And with Mythic more or less saying "youre never getting Shield spec" in the Skald TL response, I would hope that Mythic might consider giving all those classes who have no choice of speccing shield something other than a "Thanks for coming, here's your oversized 1H weapon" for a 2H weapon.

BTW - really, how often do you see a warrior or thane who runs around swinging away with a 2H weapon? They lose slam, they lose the 33-37 imbue points associated with not having two weapon items, and all they get is a slower weapon that has improved base damage.

Sure, you might see one occasionally, but generally Mid meleers don't use the ability to swap between 1H and 2H in real combat.

 

[Belsameth]

no, but Savages, Zerkers and Skalds have other play things, and still have the option to use 2h at will. while 2h is realistically only reserved for the Armsman in Alb. looking at the pure primary tank, the warrior offers FAR more diversity then an armsman ever can. I won't call them gimps, nor do I say mid 2h needs a nerf. just saying Midgard really didn't get such a bad deal on their speclines.

 

[AbPoon]

A good warrior will be changing weapons midfight quite abit, Also a good zerker will be changing from LA to 2H mid fight how else do you think you can you get round the low caps and reopen the world of pain that is 1000-1400 crits and SB's if theres any left wouldnt be able to pull a 2H PA chain and then swap to LA to have a reasonable chance to melee.

But anyway the Mid spec is sweet, gives you more choice and more abilitys.

Be very carefull what you wish for

 

[old.tuppe]

mids have 2 class that can spec shield, thane and warrior.
zerk specline are, weapon/laxe/parry, and that "free" 2h weapon come in side.
compare that other realms light tanks and how they can spec.

this game is all frontloaded dmg, that nerfed zerk to worthless class.
alb/hibs 2h can frontload alott more dmg what mids 2h.
only thing what is wierd in my view is hibs 2h spec, 2 dmg type whit 1 spec, same time alb 2h need choose dmg type.
my opinion, if they start play whit this? give alb 2h both dmg same specline, like hibs.
offcourse same time give mids 2h styles, because its not benefit to mids use "free" 2h if same time other realms 2h users do more dmg.

btw hunter whit spear line dont get "free" 1h or 2h, there is only 2h spears, and hunter cannot use shield!

 

[Sarnat]

Originally posted by old.tuppe
btw hunter whit spear line dont get "free" 1h or 2h, there is only 2h spears, and hunter cannot use shield!

Hunters can use shield if they choose sword. I think I've seen one of those around... he respecced as soon as he could =D

 

[AbPoon]

Well i have a Zerker and a 2H Arms, i dont really see a damage difference between my Arms and my Zerker, though the 2H line is better then any mid line imo with a 9 second side stun and a 4 second stun 2nd off an anytime he is crippled with having to spec 50 dmg type and 50 2h.

As for Hunters i dont belive rogues can use shields at all, also the top hunter on Excal is 2h sword and he's deadly in melee but spears a better choice due to the str vs str/dex issue

 

[klavrynd]

2h has the advantage of using 1.5 times your str modifier when calculating base damage, so does 50% more unstyled damage

this isn't d&d

iirc midgard gets 15% bonus damage on 2handed, alb gets 40 and lw lies somewhere between?

as for the armsman vs warrior crap (again) , armsman trades 3 extra speclines (thrust, polearms and 2h), higher abs armour and a semi usefull ra vs a bit higher weaponskill

 

[lator]

Originally posted by AbPoon

As for Hunters i dont belive rogues can use shields at all

can too

 

[old.tuppe]

hunter cannot use any sield, scout can spec shield (crit, shield slam, and crit, crit dead enemy), hmm dont remember know/ ranger situation.
sb can use small shield but not spec.

tryed dig something to prove my point, but cannot get to classes of camelot page, and herald didnt show unspeccable shield.

what is sad, how rare, only 2! can spec to shield in midgard.
thane is wellknow gimp in rvr, ok/good in pvr.
leaving only warrior for good rvr perfomance/pickup groups.

 

[Belsameth]

I'm quite sure I read that on various sites, can't seem to find it for the life of me tho

ooh well *shrug*

 

[AbPoon]

I remember quite a while back about Mid 2h being 115% dmg bonus and alb/hib 2h being 140%.

Cant remember for the life of me where though.

 

[scarffs]

Originally posted by aveh
My mid can't spec high shield. In fact, he can't spec shield at all. Neither can all the zerkers and savages out there. And with Mythic more or less saying "youre never getting Shield spec" in the Skald TL response, I would hope that Mythic might consider giving all those classes who have no choice of speccing shield something other than a "Thanks for coming, here's your oversized 1H weapon" for a 2H weapon.

BTW - really, how often do you see a warrior or thane who runs around swinging away with a 2H weapon? They lose slam, they lose the 33-37 imbue points associated with not having two weapon items, and all they get is a slower weapon that has improved base damage.

Sure, you might see one occasionally, but generally Mid meleers don't use the ability to swap between 1H and 2H in real combat.

I didnt say that 0_o
Thats belsameth who quoted me.

 

[scarffs]

Ok, I didnt make myself clear.
For the moment skalds never ever use 1 handers because they cant spec shield. So we should get a 2handed specline.
I know mids can use both single handed and 2handers, but the two hander is more a little bonus to swap weapons in combat then of real use.
So give people the choice, add a 2h specline similar to LW. Of course one can't use 1 handers with this specline.

Dont see why anyone should object.

 

[pudzy]

Just wondering.. why dont any of our weapon lines have an evade style?

 

[AbPoon]

Because you all have Evade one and its rather pointless, the people with high evade have access to the LA line and the H2H line, Blades Slash Blunts and Crush dont have evades either for the same reason, exception to this is CS.

Even if you have an evade style i cant see it being worth putting on your qbar for the chances youll have of pulling it off, pve poss but usless for rvr cept maybe an odd time solo or in a duel

 

[aveh]

Originally posted by AbPoon
Because you all have Evade one and its rather pointless, the people with high evade have access to the LA line and the H2H line, Blades Slash Blunts and Crush dont have evades either for the same reason, exception to this is CS.

Even if you have an evade style i cant see it being worth putting on your qbar for the chances youll have of pulling it off, pve poss but usless for rvr cept maybe an odd time solo or in a duel

Still, you have to admit that the situation with our weapon specs is a bit silly. Axe spec has its uber reactionary off block - which is only speccable by 2/5 melee classes.

I guess its all coming down to a matter of whats good for :

a) Skalds, Zerkers, Savages -- Defense: Parry & Evade
or
b) Warriors, Thanes -- Defense: Shield & Parry

Axe parry reactionary is teh sook, and we have no evade style. I'm not entirely sure how it is for the hammer & sword users, but I guess its nothing spectacular there either.

In the end, I reckon it's just utter silliness that the Axe/Sword spec is supposed to cover Blades, Skalds, Warriors, Thanes, Zerkers, & Savages, and be effective and meaningful for all these utterly different classes.

Do not even pretend that the same situation exists in Albion. In nearly all of your classes you have the ability to spec a weapon that is effective to the class. Friar/staff, Pally/Two-handed, Armsman/Polearm, Minnies&Infis/Thrust, Infis&Merc/Dual Wield, etc..

I geniunely hope that they take a hard look at this in the style review. Maybe they can stop being so lazy and acknowledge that different classes need different sets of styles in Midgard, even tho the weapons they use might be the same.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by scarffs
Ok, I didnt make myself clear.
For the moment skalds never ever use 1 handers because they cant spec shield. So we should get a 2handed specline.
I know mids can use both single handed and 2handers, but the two hander is more a little bonus to swap weapons in combat then of real use.
So give people the choice, add a 2h specline similar to LW. Of course one can't use 1 handers with this specline.

Dont see why anyone should object.

Good point.

It beats me why Albs and Hibs whinge that Mids get 2H for free when just using their own eyes they can see that virtually no Mids who can spec a shield bother using 2H. Doesn't that tell them how sucky our 2H actually is ? Have they never noticed that Troll Skald whacking that bloody great 2H Hammer is hitting them for about 5 hit points every year ?

If they're basically gonna force Skalds to use 2H can't they at least give us a decent 2H spec-line ?

(the answer is no btw )

 

[klavrynd]

I geniunely hope that they take a hard look at this in the style review. Maybe they can stop being so lazy and acknowledge that different classes need different sets of styles in Midgard, even tho the weapons they use might be the same

bet you a wet fish they're nerfing the snare on hammer

 

[aveh]

Originally posted by klavrynd
bet you a wet fish they're nerfing the snare on hammer

Only a fool would bet against a midgard nerf.

 

[Damon_D]

hehe yeah but if you do and win..you will be insta gazillionaer with those odd's

 

[Svartur]

Hunters are totally overlooked in this matter.

We have only 2h spears and cannot like the other mid classes who can use 2h choose to switch 1h weapon and shield even if we wanted to.
We cannot equip a shield, not even an unspeccable one. If we switch to 1h sword we just stand there with an empty offhand looking stupid.

However mythic have left us with the 1h spear animation from beta days where we could have 1h spears and shield.

Rangers can use a small unspeccable shield if they want to but there is not much point with that. They are a dualwielding class.

Hunters are the only mid class negated the so called bonus with mid 2h weapons while still having the same damage.

 

[mid_Efour]

True about spear, people often say wow spears rock so much etc etc, but they are still part of the 125% 2h formulae and they are piss poor slow weapons. What with nealry all of the styles having a penalty to defence its a miracle ive killed anyone using spear.

 

[old.Dorac]

Q: A lot of people say Midgard twohanded does ~+15% damage bonus vs. onehanded, and in Hibernia and Albion (as they have special speccs) twohanded does ~+40% damage bonus vs onehanded. I'm talking about style damage. Is that quite correct?

A: Just as a side note, be very afraid of things that "a lot of people" say. For some reason unknown to mortal man, "a lot of people" tend to be either wrong, or not very many people after all.

But that's not the answer to your question! The answer according to the swell guy who looked it up is "All two handed weapons get a base 10% damage bonus, plus an extra amount based on their specialization level."

http://www.camelotherald.com/more/978.shtml

 

[Flesh]

Originally posted by aveh
Sure, you might see one occasionally, but generally Mid meleers don't use the ability to swap between 1H and 2H in real combat.

Any clever warrior, would have both 1h and 2h weap equipped and on qb, slam, move behind..swop to 2h weap on qb, 3 styles from behind, switch back to 1h..if the opponent isn't dead~~