News Stephen Lawrence Trial

rynnor

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Presumably they will appeal - I cant say that it looks like a safe conviction at all. It smacks of political inteference in the legal system - they changed the double jeopardy rule to get them and also another law so that they could show dodgy vids of the defendants to prejudice their case.

Clearly they are scumbags but this case should have never made it to trial based on the lack of evidence.
 

Lamp

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wonder if his his mum will get done for perjury
 

old.user4556

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I cant say that it looks like a safe conviction at all.

Clearly they are scumbags but this case should have never made it to trial based on the lack of evidence.

Stephen Lawrence's blood on their clothes isn't enough for "beyond reasonable doubt" ?
 

rynnor

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Big G said:
Stephen Lawrence's blood on their clothes isn't enough for "beyond reasonable doubt" ?

Not if it got there by contamination - there were a lot of cockups in the police handling of the forensic evidence.

Plus there were no eye witnesses - pure forensic evidence is always dodgy. Later tests may prove the opposite of the original tests.
 

old.user4556

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Well that's always a risk. Who knows; maybe it was planted.
 

Scouse

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Aye. Wouldn't be the first time.

TBFH - I couldn't give a stuff about the case. It happened the year I went to university - so more than half my lifetime ago, and I'm more pissed off about a lot of other things (unjust wars etc).

What does piss me off is the scrapping of double jeopardy and all the other rules that were to safeguard us from our overzealous and, frankly, bent state.
 

Mabs

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as i understand it they havent scrapped double jepordy, its just no longer a case that if you dodge a conviction once youre "safe"
 

Moriath

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Will get off on appeal I would think, tho they probably did it tbh
 

rynnor

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as i understand it they havent scrapped double jepordy, its just no longer a case that if you dodge a conviction once youre "safe"

That is the double jeopardy rule and yes they have basically scrapped it 'in exceptional circumstances' where new evidence is found.

One of them is already in prison for drugs offences so they are no great loss but the same way these guys have been convicted could be used against anyone the state doesnt like - really handy for an authoritarian state.
 

Reno

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Not if it got there by contamination - there were a lot of cockups in the police handling of the forensic evidence.

Plus there were no eye witnesses - pure forensic evidence is always dodgy. Later tests may prove the opposite of the original tests.
SOmewhat OT, the reverse, a conviction based on pure eye witness evidence and no forensic evidence, is a lot more dodgy though.
Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, their memories even more so.
 

Ch3tan

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I thought they could prove the chain of evidence Rynnor, if they can, then I doubt appeal will do much.
 

Punishment

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It's how the law works unfortunately, the victim is dead the perp survives even if they get 18 years of normal life before trial.
 

Embattle

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Drop the tinfoil hats, in reality the double jeopardy rule was always rather crap since over time technology/methods improves and thus the evidence improves. They won't bring just any old case to court again and again due to time and costs, they will only bring the cases that have improved in terms of evidence enough to justify the retrial.
 

Ch3tan

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I always thought life was 25 years, but let's not get in the way of a bit of moaning.
 

Punishment

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I think perhaps you should read up a little on just what a life sentence in this country means.

Let's wait for the sentencing shall we not everything uttered on the internet is a statistic, i will say im wrong if he gets 25 years but they won't
 

megadave

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Happened near my secondary school, outside my mates house (at the time anyway) everyone around here knows they're guilty, they used to brag about it to people in the pub years back.
 

rynnor

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Drop the tinfoil hats, in reality the double jeopardy rule was always rather crap since over time technology/methods improves and thus the evidence improves.

I dont think you understand - the double jeopardy protects you from the state just continuously re-trying you until the jurors make the 'right' decision.

On evidence - if theres not enough to convict the CPS shouldnt bring the case - it takes a cock up by the CPS to require a double jeopardy or its just a trumped up charge.
 

rynnor

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Let's wait for the sentencing shall we not everything uttered on the internet is a statistic, i will say im wrong if he gets 25 years but they won't

Because they were under 18 at the time the starting point is 12 years - this may be reduced if the attack wasnt pre meditated - ofc if the establishment is seeking to make a point it could be a lot more but that would pave the way for an appeal over the sentence.
 

Embattle

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I dont think you understand - the double jeopardy protects you from the state just continuously re-trying you until the jurors make the 'right' decision.

On evidence - if theres not enough to convict the CPS shouldnt bring the case - it takes a cock up by the CPS to require a double jeopardy or its just a trumped up charge.

Rubbish, but as usual a fanciful idea for the tin hat brigade that lurks these forums.

The idea of them getting it right every time is also impossible.
 

opticle

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not everything uttered on the internet is a statistic

EVERYTHING IS A STATISTIC AND MUST BE CORRECT !!!1111

I agree to some extent about the double jeopardy issue, its there to protect us, but advances such as DNA testing, yada yada (cue someone mentioning unreliability :)) does mean that sometimes new evidence is found that couldn't have been predicted in the past and if it is significant then it has to be heard..
 

rynnor

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Remember the Birmingham 6? The police trawled the local pubs for irishmen but they had no eyewitnesses.

So they turned to helpful forensics eho came up with a test for explosives and it came out positive so they sent thrm down for decades.

Eventually someone realised the test was useless and they were all set free but its a cautionary tale of relying on forensics alone.
 

opticle

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Yeah, that's the problem, as always - when shit people and idiots are involved.

They (should?) have to demonstrate how reliable the evidence is (sensitivity and specificity) and then explain that in layman's terms for the plebs interpreting it.

Definitely a cautionary tale to be listened to, but reliable new evidence surely has to be listened to and taken into account. Wouldn't you want it to be if someone committed a serious crime against you ?
 

Lamp

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An ex-lifer came on the radio this afternoon & said both of them are going to have a bad time inside. Whether they section themselves with the nonces or in general population, they're gonna get hurt. And don't forget those 14 years (or whatever they got) are a minimum. Chances are they'll either end up dead inside or will be well over 60 before they're let out.
 

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