Stealth to strong?

[old.Alliandre]

<cough> nerf stealthers? Why? The only stealther class that I can't kill is SB or the alb stealthy close ones (don't know the names of mid chars to well). If an archer shoots me, I /face quickcast stun while I set my zealot on them, then they're history. I usually take one hit at the most if I'm buffed with bladeturn. If I haven't got bladeturn on then I'm probably dead though.

As for the SB or the alb equivilent <sp?> I only get hit by about 1 of those a month not in keep raids. Why? Because they need to be standing right in my running path to be able to hit me. I just run in a really strange line.

Stealthers don't get it that easy.

And btw, the realm ability that uncovers stealther won't be much use. Being able to see stealthers from a further distance for one minute once every 30 mins.

I have never played a stealther in RvR but I don't think they get it easy. The only reason they have more rp's is because they spend alot more time in RvR than most.

 

[kr0n]

Stealth is so uber that they can take out whole grps! ... not. Stealthers have their weak points, what makes it strong is that they have the option to choose their targets. End of story.

 

[listepik]

what makes us strong, are a couple of things.
We get to fight, when WE want, and we get to fight who WE want.
but to get kills, we rely on enemy carelesness. I never attack a running group, unless i wanna go home. i never attack a standing group, unless i want a easy kill THEN go home. i never attack a single speed-runner, be they skald/bard or slower caster speedsters, because, lets face it, the PA will miss anyways.

I attack a camper. if he is alone. or if im alot higher. or if i wanna go home. I dont really get that many kills.

What makes us weak, well, read up. its the same things...

Only time i am to any use in fighting, except when im alone, is when my side is grocely overrunning the enemy, or if theres a rezzer available. because i will die.

Basically, we get one kill, then die. its a matter taste. if you like the art of the actual kill, stealthers are your choice. if you like mass combat, where you slay several enemies, and stand victorious on the battlefield, stealthers is something that happen to other people.


Dont get me wrong. Infils ROCK. they are fun, nerve-wrecking and above all MINDNUMBINGLY dangerous to be. I still get adrenal surge whenever i move in on a target. sometimes even in PvE

But dont come and tell me im over powered. cuz i aint. stealthers have more RPs than others because we spend more time in RvR, since we cant really get groups (This apply to almost any stealther, except myself. hence, i dont RvR that much im blessed yay)

 

[old.¥ØÐÄ]

i think previous thread says it all . in rvr its very tough for a stealther to kill and get away safely . he has to choose a correct target . correct escape . hope he doesnt de-stealth whilst drawing arrow "happens often" and this is all before he has fired an arrow . or pa'd .

the simple fact is stealthers kill casters - casters kill tanks .. tanks kill stealthers . sure its hard for a tank to find a stealther but tanks are very safe from a even con stealther due to there massive hp .and if a tank does come into contact with an even con stealther 9 times out of ten that would end up as a stealther chewing grass , unless tank was sitting down .

as for stealth and kill from distance thats tough also especially with bladeturn / pets . ive lost count of the times ive killed a mid/hib and one of the other caster sin group has sent its pet on me and it has chased me for way to long ., even if i get far enough away from the pet the stealth the pet STILL comes directly for me hence de-stealthing me and ussually results in my death due to other enemys following pet . i got no end to melee the pet and run again due to me using end to sprint after kill . imo if anything needs nerfing its casters pets . they distance they chase you for and STILL chase u and come directly for you when i am stealthed is bullshit . people think playing a stealth char is easy . well my words for you are play one yourself and you will seee how really hard it is for us to play our chars . the above things that hinder a stealth char atm is only pre-1.50 ad then assasins catn 1 hit kill and stay steathed and also sniper chars have see hidden against them . and you calling out for more nerfs ? lol

 

[Orin Askhammare]

Stealth in itself is not in any way uber. If my shammy gets ganked it's mostly because 1) I fucked up by taking a risk and not moving enough or 2) Nobody near giving a rat's ass about my safety. Never had an unjustly death from an assassin myself.

The biggest complaints overseas in the US right now are from non assassin stealth classes who apperently had their stealth become pretty much useless because they seem to be too easy to discover/kill by assassins. I can imagine it would be a major pain for a scout to not be able to even scout effectively anymore

If I could say anything I would second Sicko's comments about stealth. Bonus in wooded areas and penalties in wide open space. This of course would be a total non-possibility to implement at this stage in the game but it does make sense heh.

 

[dittytwo]

Originally posted by Alrindel

bloody fantastic loved it cheared me up no end

 

[Flimgoblin]

The assassin stealth isn't overpowered...
At least not when 1.50 comes in and they fix the one-shot-stay-stealthed 'feature'.

(as long as yer killing blues/yellows this doesn't matter anyway... all it was was a grey-killing tool)

Archers that can stand in the middle of the bowl in emain, shoot a few arrows, kill a few people and get out scot free shows that stealth + range as it is is too good...

When they bring in see hidden it means you're always that translucent shadow to a stealther (still invis to everyone else). Which means if you're standing in the golf course and not behind a tree or whatever, a sharp-eyed assassin might just notice your shadow. I was grouped with a NightShade on hib (with one of my alts) and got him to stand facing away from me in stealth mode, but still in sight so he was translucent... (far enough away for the neon-sign name to disappear).
Maybe I'm just blind but he wasn't at all easy to see, and I have my monitor brightness/contrast turned up pretty high.

One problem might be the bug that gets fixed 1.51 or 1.52A - the stealthers popping into view...
instead of going invis->shaded. you currently go invis->visible->shaded, which means that when you first see the archer with see hidden you get a 'pop' wherever they are.

(note: I'm not counting anyone with Odin's Eye, the game should not be written around third party cheat software! Imagine them balancing Counter Strike on the assumption that everyone had an aimbot)

 

[Celeste_Cross]

Hi

I'd like to second some of the points raised before me by assassins, stealth is not overpowered.

I have recently spent a lot of time in Thridanki (20-24 BG) with my lev 24 Inf on Excal, learning and experimenting with my role in RvR, and it is a lot harder than some people would have us believe. You have to be very selective in who you choose to attack, as a poor choice will leave you dead in seconds. I pick off stragglers, especially casters/healers that are sitting down to regain power. I also pick off scout types, as they're usually far away from everyone else (and they think they're immune in their stealth). I will only ever go near a group of enemies if it's to help out Albs.

It all boils down to tactics, and the main one is simple. If you don't want to get assassinated (as opposed to sniped), don't stop moving. It's hard enough to line up a backstab/perf without the target running round like a headless chicken. Also, stick with your groups, especially if you're a caster or healer. If you don't have tanks to protect your casters/healers, don't scream "NERF!" when they get killed.

Oh, and insta's are a pain to any assassin... all it takes is 2 button presses to halt an assassin in it's tracks
/face
insta mezz/stun

Oh, and concerning the shadow-instead-of-invisible thing. I can spot a shadowed scout from a fair distance. That's just a personal thing, some people could miss a shadow creeping up to them, but they wouldn't miss the huge frickin' name shining above our heads!

anyway, it's only my 2nd post here, so please don't flame me! i'm sweet and innocent and murderous! forget the last bit....

Celeste Cross
<Dead Dragons Society>
lev 24 Infiltrator
Excal, Albion

Judyth Soulscream
<Dead Dragons Society>
lev 16 Sorceror
Excal, Albion

 

[Flimgoblin]

Aye, shadowed at range isn't _too_ bad... takes a sharp eye to spot them.

Shadowed up close doesn't work

Assassinating people is hard if they're in a group or moving...

If you're waiting solo near a milegate keep trying to pick off0 greens with your bow then you're an easy target

(assuming the assassin can ever find you..)

 

[Blood]

Originally posted by sickofit...
Oh... one thing that strikes me as indefinitely ridiculous.
Two-handed warhammer/-axe backstabbing.

Yes, Shadowblades...
a) it is extreme nonsense to call it backstabbing... rather back-cleaving.
b) don't you think norse assassins would use something like thin daggers/short swords rather than a clumsy two handed weapon?

No we stealth in, and then unleash all hell on you with our Midgard melee weapons (you know Midgard IS the melee realm, well even my hunter seems to be unaware of it)


fixing stealth is simple... give stealth classes fewer spec points.. as it is most stealth classes have enough spec points to have good weapon skill, and high stealth.. if they made people have to sacrifice good weapon skills for uber stealth, then the problem wouldnt be so big.. there is a HUGE difference from 40 to 50 stealth.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen
No we stealth in, and then unleash all hell on you with our Midgard melee weapons (you know Midgard IS the melee realm, well even my hunter seems to be unaware of it)

Another case of having replied before comprehending the post.
My point was plain and simple:

What kind of assassin (and Shadow Blades are assassins...no?) uses a two-handed, clumsy weapon?

I wasn't screaming for a nerf... it just strikes me as extremely ridiculous.

Midgard is THE melee realm... sure. What do you think my Nightshade is doing? Throwing cotton balls at the mobs until they break down crying?

 

[old.Iunliten]

Originally posted by old.Ayam Ganbatte

An alternative would be to allow casters to target the floor or walls and so cast area effect spells at those; casting on monsters or doors is a very limited way to flush them out.

GTAE spells shows up in 1.51
Not wall targetable but at least ground

Btw sickofit, it is only a games, nothing with reality to do so please let me keep that 2 hander...
Pretty please?

Finally an advice that I should not say but I will do it anyways, don't travel alone or sit away from the groups while resting.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by old.Iunliten
Btw sickofit, it is only a games, nothing with reality to do so please let me keep that 2 hander...
Pretty please?

Let me answer your quote with a quote...

I wasn't screaming for a nerf... it just strikes me as extremely ridiculous.

/wonders if he should use pictograms in the future...

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by Orin Askhammare
So what kind of change would you suggest then? I can't think of one to be honest. Stealth can be an awful pain when you're at the receiving end. Especially if you're a cloth caster. I've got a chain wearing shammy and even he fears infis.

Hehe we fear anyone we cant see comming half a mile before so we can bolt , poison and then run like hell, FEAR my shaman the UBER gimp, bahhh wish they would fix our class. And on stealth being to uber... go away you silly git

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by sickofit...

Midgard is THE melee realm... sure. What do you think my Nightshade is doing? Throwing cotton balls at the mobs until they break down crying? [/B]

Well as he is being played by you , we would not even wonder if he did

 

[Silence]

please try playing the bg with an assasian class.. its not easy and u are not overpowerful.... as for stealth, Fine the way it is.

Casters are weak to assassians, that was the idea.


Disguise ideas is daft, can you your self think of an idea of making a disguise work??

camefluage into surroundings? techincally thats stealth, but if u mean hiding in trees and by walls and stuff.. then avoid walls and ur are assassian free.. clever?? Not!

Things are fine as it is, dont go getting ne more nerfs.

 

[old.chesnor]

Playing in assassin in the BG has nothing to do with the potential swarm of Infiltrators, Shadowblades and possibly Nightshades we will have throughtout the frontiers in a few months time. Most assassins in the BG will not have (and really shouldn't have) high stealth, as this would be at the expense of tools they really need to level effectively in PvE. Most assassins let stealth autotrain until they hit half-dings, by the time an assassin is 50, their stealth WILL be high, undetectable for non-stealthers (on almost even cons) unless they are standing on top of you.

Assassin classes are built around the way that stealth is implemented now. I also think that assassins are great classes, so to make any fundamental change to stealth would seriously mess assassins up, and this would be a bad thing.

Archers with stealth is a different matter though. I think Mythic tried to 'nerf' the overpowered combo of stealth + high dmg @ range, by not only nerfing archers (possibly too much) but by giving assassins passive See Hidden. The by-product of this will be that archers will not spec stealth so high, meaning they will be less untouchable for the non-stealth classes. Maybe.

I think archer stealth should be a different skill to assassin stealth. Leave assassins alone, give archers camoflage.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
I think archer stealth should be a different skill to assassin stealth. Leave assassins alone, give archers camoflage.

And minstrel stealth? You didn't mention it, at all. It's already severely gimped compaired to other stealthers, yet people are forever screaming for it to be nerfed. I wouldn't mind loosing stealth too much if they gave minstrels something to make up for it (otherwise minstrel becomes a skald with 1/3 the damage and less hp).

 

[Spudgie]

The way stealth was implemented in the first place was wrong. It should be more about moving with the terrain + in shadows.

Not having an Invisible Button is the middle of a field in daylight. That just takes the piss.

Stealth should be varied to take into account light levels + terrain details, but it seems DAOC engine can't handle that at all. Hopefully the new expansion may give us some hope and make assassins use skill instead of just hitting the Invisible-Button.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Dannyn
And minstrel stealth? You didn't mention it, at all. It's already severely gimped compaired to other stealthers, yet people are forever screaming for it to be nerfed. I wouldn't mind loosing stealth too much if they gave minstrels something to make up for it (otherwise minstrel becomes a skald with 1/3 the damage and less hp).

lol. Minstrel stealth isn't gimped. It's precisely the same stealth that archers have. Because you choose not to spec it, does not mean it's gimped.

 

[odjinn]

yes its kinda boring when u as a RM, got shot from an archer, QC nearsight, then realise that he cons blue and think "hell ye he's mine" so u sprint after him, he runs. and when u are at the point u can root the guy *poff* he disappears. that is unfair if anything

same think when i chased a little infil in BG, sprint, QC root .. *poff*

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by Meatballs
Infiltrators are great versus one person, more than one and they go down hellova quick, if you're a yellow con alone you deserve your ass handed to you, lower cons - well level difference is too great a problem in rvr. As for oneshots and remaining they are being removed anyway so there's no need to discuss that.

Assasinating someone in the middle of a group without oneshotting them and you're not all that likely to get away long enough to stealth, hybrid shouts, casters root/mez/dd/stun all prevent you from stealthing. But I see what you mean about archers being able to kill someone and stealth before people catch up with them, increasing the time to restealth though would be nerfing all the other stealth classes so thats not a viable option.

Stealth really reduces your running speed so to actually get into range of someone with it they have to be pretty stationary or you have to camp somewhere they'll come through (like the milegates), lining up a perf artery on a moving target is rather difficult unless they are making a beeline straight through you.

Excellent post mate. Yes, stealth must be really annoying to you guys on the receiving end, but it is far from working each time, there is a hell of 'idle' time while we try to get a correct positional on an ever moving target because we are just so damn slow moving while stealth, and if the ennemy is not alone we are pretty sure that, even if we take one down, we are not getting away with it.

Just learn our weaknesses: if you stay in grps of 2-3, keep constantly moving, chances are you'll improve your escape rate from us drastically

 

[SFXman]

Must resist... ugh... argh... NO IT ISN'T! ...................
I as a scout hate those damn assassins who soon will se us 24/7 due to some gay-ass passive see hidden skill. THAT my friends is too much and I think those pesky assassins are the ones who require a nerf OR no change.... not a new skill that ruins the life of an archer.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by SFXman
Must resist... ugh... argh... NO IT ISN'T! ...................
I as a scout hate those damn assassins who soon will se us 24/7 due to some gay-ass passive see hidden skill. THAT my friends is too much and I think those pesky assassins are the ones who require a nerf OR no change.... not a new skill that ruins the life of an archer.

You are talking about a sniper... in other words an assassin using a bow.

Not an archer.

Hunting down 'archers' and casters... that's their job.

 

[SFXman]

Maybe so Mr.Tiredofit... but still, no passive see hidden... anything but passive... ugh...

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by sickofit...


Hunting down 'archers' and casters... that's their job.

Well there is not much else we actually *CAN* hunt down

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


lol. Minstrel stealth isn't gimped. It's precisely the same stealth that archers have. Because you choose not to spec it, does not mean it's gimped.

Minstrel stealth is less effective per point of stealth than archers and assassins (especially the latter).

 

[trigali]

Hmm... I don't know enough about other realm's abilities... but don't Minstrels have non-melee skills ? Like song or spell or something ?

Assassin's haven't...

 

[- Pathfinder -]

The issue for minstrels is that without stealth they're basically skalds with poo damage output and an ickle life expectancy

As for See Hidden, it'll probably get nerfed - it is overpowered as it is, but then again Mythic have been known to have some strange priorities in the past.

 

[old.Runolas]

I don’t see anyway Mytic could implement stealth differently in the game without gimping the hole class. The way RvR works in game is fighting in open fields, so hiding in the bushes is seldom an option. Moving with the terrain is a nice idea if it only was enough of it to be effective.

Playing an assassin takes skill and patience both in PvE and RvR. Just because they can rake in rp doesn’t mean that they have an easy time. Don’t forget that some of them live in the frontiers after hitting lvl 50, thus get much rp. I can only speak for myself, but most of my victims are from people running alone, or drifting away from the main grp and the most fun…other stealthers.

For once I actually agree with Chesnor. Stealth + ranged attack was too powerful and that is why it got fixed. Although I think the See Hidden was a bit too hard. Hunters/Rangers and Scouts with less effective stealth f.eks. in open ground seem fair, because they are able to hide near trees etc and still be effective.

IMO The only problem with stealth occurs when you have too high population of lvl 50’s compared to other classes. It is a shame that so many healers and fighter-classes rather play a rogue/mage alt in RvR than their original main. Especially fighter-classes bleed from the overpowered mezz.