Stealth to strong?

[Molten Lava]

Another post from me then....

I would like to know what people think that after the recent patch Scouts/Infilts/Hunters etc are to strong for RvR. I know its awfully hard to lvl them....but dont you think that they have to be nerfed a bit (as you can see in all top RP holders, most chars in the top 50 are stealthers) For example especially casters are easy prey for them...one hit and they are death...shouldnt they get some form of protection against stealth? To have some sort of balance the natural enemys should all have strong and weak points....as for now I think stealthers have to much pro's

I know this is gonna make lots of people angry (30-40% of all players is Stealther now but please give me any reasons why I cant say: Stelath is to strong in RvR now

 

[Molten Lava]

Typo's

and dont mention the typo's pls

 

[old.Hendrick]

This will end messy......

 

[Alrindel]

 

[Orin Askhammare]

So what kind of change would you suggest then? I can't think of one to be honest. Stealth can be an awful pain when you're at the receiving end. Especially if you're a cloth caster. I've got a chain wearing shammy and even he fears infis. In the end if you're a vulnerable class you need protection. I try to stay close to other people who can gank the infi if he attacks me. Also when no one is is keeping an eye on me I tend to remind people that they will have to release if I'm dead. Seems to work. A dual attack by 2 infis has me eating dirt very quick though!

Wait till realm abilities arrive. Archers will be up in arms! See Hidden anyone?

Infiltrators could well be up for a nerf in the future though. Assuming the horror stories from the US hold any value. 50 thrust infis with a 9 second stun style of an evade (with infis having an insane evade go figure :/).

 

[old.chesnor]

/me dons flame retardant suit

Yes, stealth is overpowered.

 

[Orin Askhammare]

Gotta love that one Alrindel

 

[Brannor McThife]

Sure sure...chant the "nerf infils"...remember, they got the 2.5 and you got the 2.2. BUT, you can wield 2-H...so hush. Nerf SB's. Don't let them wield 2-H weapons... haha.

-G

 

[Orin Askhammare]

Nono, I wasn't chanting nerf infis to hell and back. I just said I wouldn't be surprised if the level 50 thrust style there got nerfed. This does not concern lower level infis

At least so far in the BG I think infis are feared and that's what they should be. If I watch out and make sure there are other people about me it is no certain thing for a single infi to kill me. Alone would be another matter though but that's where they shine and a shammy obviously does not I just wish there weren't so damn many of them!

 

[krait]

Absolutely perfect Alrindel ....soooo true not to mention misses/BT/nearsight/soon-to-be see hidden (although it seems it will get a nerf as well ) .............gah,reading the IGN boards too much.....i'm beginning to sound like everyone on there now

 

[Flimgoblin]

stealth on it's own isn't overpowered...

powerful yes. annoying, yes. overpowered no.


Stealth + range as it stands is.

Stealth + instakill + keeping stealth is.

Roll on 1.50

 

[old.linnet]

Stealth

I think it was a mistake to implement stealth as invisibility, myself.


Lin

 

[Myshra]

Originally posted by Orin Askhammare
Nono, I wasn't chanting nerf infis to hell and back. I just said I wouldn't be surprised if the level 50 thrust style there got nerfed. This does not concern lower level infis

afaik doesn't stun now get its duration determined by a resist in the US? lets say this 9s stun victim has 26% resist, this brings it down to about 6.5 seconds? not a major nerf, but not bad

 

[erl]

See hidden is satans tool!
Please GOA, go hide 1.50 somewhere!

 

[old.Ayam Ganbatte]

Hmm, I've always been of the standing that stealthers should look like 'ld ghosts', very transparent but never totally invisible.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Re: Stealth

Originally posted by old.linnet
I think it was a mistake to implement stealth as invisibility, myself.


Lin

yep pretty terrible design decision... but I think they're stuck with it now...

 

[krait]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
stealth on it's own isn't overpowered...

powerful yes. annoying, yes. overpowered no.


Stealth + range as it stands is.



Roll on 1.50

It's not so much stealth and range,more the ability to do it again and again after only 10 seconds.
Mythic could have solved all the problems by just extending the restealth timer in RvR to 1 or 2 minutes....it would probably cut down drastically the number of hit and runs....an archer can only go so far before someone would be able to run him down...it would make all archers think twice before shooting a grey con if they ran the risk of not being able to stealth before they are stunned/mezzed/caught <shrug>

 

[klavrynd]

The only place/time where you will find stealth overpowered is in the endgame.

As i see it all archer and assasin classes can have stealth and i don't care about getting one/twoslapped by an assasin. After all that's what they do and they had a really hard time getting theirselves levelled.

Archer classes have "weaker" stealth since they have a tad more groupfriendly and have better possibilities to solo.

Imho the only class where stealth is overpowered is the minstrel one. They both have groupfriendlyness and can be played as a pseudo assasin.

<rant>
But as someone said , the game's called Dark Age of Camelot and
albion allways has an advantage classwise
</rant>

 

[Meatballs]

Infiltrators are great versus one person, more than one and they go down hellova quick, if you're a yellow con alone you deserve your ass handed to you, lower cons - well level difference is too great a problem in rvr. As for oneshots and remaining they are being removed anyway so there's no need to discuss that.

Assasinating someone in the middle of a group without oneshotting them and you're not all that likely to get away long enough to stealth, hybrid shouts, casters root/mez/dd/stun all prevent you from stealthing. But I see what you mean about archers being able to kill someone and stealth before people catch up with them, increasing the time to restealth though would be nerfing all the other stealth classes so thats not a viable option.

Stealth really reduces your running speed so to actually get into range of someone with it they have to be pretty stationary or you have to camp somewhere they'll come through (like the milegates), lining up a perf artery on a moving target is rather difficult unless they are making a beeline straight through you.

 

[Archeon]

Originally posted by klavrynd


Imho the only class where stealth is overpowered is the minstrel one. They both have groupfriendlyness and can be played as a pseudo assasin.

<rant>
But as someone said , the game's called Dark Age of Camelot and
albion allways has an advantage classwise
</rant>

Both very true, why in gods name those weak ass skald clones can stealth is beyond me ^_^


and any albi that say albi isn't over-powered i'd like to direct your attention to a little class i like to call the clerics... just be glad they don't have a zerka class really or i'd be really worried

 

[Brannor McThife]

Why is it that most of the people complaining are Mids? And please, if you want to change the game engine to make stealth non-invisible, then implement disguises so that infiltrators can be just that.

And please, yet again, having played an assassin class and and minstrel, assassins can see a minstrel a mile away. SB's/NS's can easily take down a stationary minstrel. Minstrels are weak fighters, and have to pick their fights.

<yawns>

Playing an assassin well takes patience, should you make assassins "ghostlike" - which they are when you see them - always is just plain stupid, might as well throw all those classes away then.

As for archers stealthing. Well Duh. They're close to nature, if the world was correct, they'd blend into their surroundings, be able to climb trees. Pffft.

-G

 

[old.Ayam Ganbatte]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
<yawns>

Playing an assassin well takes patience, should you make assassins "ghostlike" - which they are when you see them - always is just plain stupid, might as well throw all those classes away then.

To me, sneaking up on classes would be just that, sneaking up on classes, not standing in front of them stealthed dancing and waving (stealthers, you are SO COOL when you do that! Yeah!). To me that's "just plain stupid".

An alternative would be to allow casters to target the floor or walls and so cast area effect spells at those; casting on monsters or doors is a very limited way to flush them out.

Why is it that most of the people complaining are Mids?

Mostly people are just throwing ideas around.

 

[old.chesnor]

Brannor, 100% invisibility is just plain stupid. Stealthers should be just that, quiet and camoflaged (or disguised) this would be much more interesting as classes that fall prey to invisible opponents appearing out of nowhere and attacking with the biggest melee opening hit in the entire freaking game AND poisons might actually stand a chance (or attacked from miles away with a single crit shot that can do like 1000dmg for that matter) would actually stand a chance.

Stealth ruins this game, for all but the stealthers IMHO.

 

[whirling1]

The problem here isnt that stealthers are over powered.

the problem is that you cannot use tactics to prevent assasination due to the fact that collision detection isnt in the game...which for a game supposedly based around realm wars is kinda stupid..it sorta gimps every other class.....Mythic put collision detection in let us see how well a wall of shields stands up to an assasin.....

 

[klavrynd]

...that fall prey to invisible opponents appearing out of nowhere and attacking with the biggest melee opening hit in the entire freaking game AND poisons might actually stand a chance (or attacked from miles away with a single crit shot that can do like 1000dmg for that matter) would actually stand a chance.

As i said before, it makes up for the troubles they have of getting to 50. After level 20 most rogue classes fall into a black hole with low hp, low weapon proficiency and slim to no other features that would increase the chance of getting a group.

Assasin classes do not stand a chance against melee classes in most cases if they don't open with a high damage attack or a poison , nor against casters, that blast them away after a qc root/stun/whatever.

 

[krait]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Brannor, 100% invisibility is just plain stupid. Stealthers should be just that, quiet and camoflaged (or disguised) this would be much more interesting as classes that fall prey to invisible opponents appearing out of nowhere and attacking with the biggest melee opening hit in the entire freaking game AND poisons might actually stand a chance (or attacked from miles away with a single crit shot that can do like 1000dmg for that matter) would actually stand a chance.

Stealth ruins this game, for all but the stealthers IMHO.

1000 dam...... i can almost do that on a level 1 mob at level49 with max longbow.A lev 45 fire wizard friend did 1200 dam on the same mob............... i know which damage i'd prefer,especially with BT blocking most arrows anyway.
The biggest hit against me i've ever had was from an orange con RM called Apsk......932....dead in 1 shot.Not even a purple con archer ever hit me as hard as that in my 30s.
Funny old game eh

 

[Jupitus]

I'll throw a couple of comments in here, but bear in mind I have only ever played an Infiltrator (apart from 7 levels of an armsman alt ) so I can only really say it from one side.

I really do believe that many players think it is easy for infils (and I guess other assassin classes) to run around stealthed, one-shot killing people and moving on to the next. In my experience, and so fare I am level 43, it requires alot of patience to find the best targets or a high degree of luck if you are going to try to rush in hastily.

The degree of precision required to line up a PA (that's Perforate Artery, to the uninitiated) actually makes it very hard to execute well, and I usually find that in 'real' RvR (ie when there is an actual situation such as a relic defence or all out battle somewhere) most tactics get thrown out in favour of more 'quick, dirty' kills. In reality, RvR and using stealth to hit the casters means getting round the back of the enemy, and then exposing yourself after attacking which will usually lead to death - death at the back of the enemy means no rezz... /release.

Of course, all of this assumes that you have attained a suitable level first (and although I cannot go there, I am enjoying hearing some of the stories coming from the BGs these days ) and getting an assassin over level 40 takes some time and dedication. I do believe that more assassins created end up getting deleted than get over 40. There are sensible reasons behind this. People think that stealth is good for PvE too, but in the long term it isn't. Sure, in ideal conditions an assassin can stealth up on a mob, hit hard to start with and then finish it off. The reality is that most of the time that mob will be close enough to others that as soon as you hit, the others aggro you, and with paper armour you are a sitting duck.

Grouping is tough too. We do our best damage (by a long way) by stealthing, and hitting hard. How many group situations allow you the time to restealth and reapply poisons between pulls? Add in the need to line up a PA precisely, when tanks in a group will turn the mob from one side to the other, and you can see that a grouped assassin is often going to be dishing out only a fraction of the damage they are capable of. This leads to us being 'group unfriendly' and news travels

Now, I have painted a gloomy picture simply to try to highlight the issues we face. Of course, there are exceptions, and gladly so, and I also know many players who do their best to help particular classes get groups even though they may have to compromise the overall effectiveness of that group to include them.

Before people start wading in with 'you don't know how to play that character then' I want to remind you that I am stating the worst case. With cooperation, we can really help a group do well... get the tanks ordered nicely and aware of the need to line up, and things start to rock along, depending on the pull rate.

All of that said, I will say that I love playing an infiltrator, and despite the tough levelling I have never regretted my choice. Keep raids are an excellent chuckle, we can scout around, personally I get involved in siege craft too, and that is what it is all for.

Please don't assume that just because you get jumped one day by an assassin that you were an easy kill for them - timing and planning usually go into every decision taken and you are sure to have taxed them some Of course, there are hints and tips to help you avoid getting caught out, but I am not about to post them here, am I??

 

[Jupitus]

Oooooohhhh... don't I go on when I get started

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

If stealth was changed to look half-transparent, crit strike would be good for nothing.

Can you expect your victim to stand still and watch your "shadow" creeping closer to finally perform a PA?
Don't think that would work.

If you want stealth to be more realistic, introduce modifiers-
ie.
penalties on open grassland
bonusses in wooded areas, night etc.

That would be something my 'shade could live with... makes it even more interesting, having to plan ahead...


Oh... one thing that strikes me as indefinitely ridiculous.
Two-handed warhammer/-axe backstabbing.

Yes, Shadowblades...
a) it is extreme nonsense to call it backstabbing... rather back-cleaving.
b) don't you think norse assassins would use something like thin daggers/short swords rather than a clumsy two handed weapon?

 

[thorungla]

Bit of a mute topic for discussion since we in Europe have no influence over the game design whatsoever.

Add to that, that soon all you casters no longer need to fear any of the archer classes - it is already hard enuf to kill you all with your bladeturns and the chances of using crit shots almost nil (unless of course your stood there bewildered and alone as the 3rd or 4th arrows hits you after 12-16 seconds) but in a couple more months there will be few if any archers left playing to threaten you.

Mythic imo screwed up as soon as they implemented the first ever nerf, its a quick and easy way of addressing inherent design imbalance (ie the quick way out) and as such has failed.

I say dont nerf anyone, and good luck to all those levelling assasin classes, it is a knightmare to do so, as are archers, and I hope after all your time and effort the nerf bat isnt swung in your direction due to yet more screams of 'nerf'.