Statistics and other lies...

[Dingbat]

I got bored waiting for my copies of SI snailing it's way through the mail, so I started randomly searching for stuff on DuskWave. The everlasting complaints about lack of seers came to mind, and I decided to see if there was any truth to this... Here's what DuskWave told me:

Class		Level 1-40	Level 41-50	Total
=====================================================
Healer		464		212		676
Shaman		570		201		771
Skald		663		252		915
Warrior		452		157		609
Thane		450		199		649
Berserk		546		122		668
Savage		N/A		N/A		N/A
Spiritmaster	412		67		479
Runemaster	512		160		672
Bonedancer	N/A		N/A		N/A
Hunter		494		102		596
Shadowblade	666		176		842

A few factors to consider:

• DuskWave only lists characters that belong to guilds (at least I think that's what it does).
• It only lists active accounts.
• Characters that have elected not to have their information displayed on web are not shown (well, duh).
• The new SI classes are not available on DuskWave, most likely because they are not available in the XML files.
• There's no easy way to tell if a character has been actively played recently, and I didn't

Pretty interesting numbers don't you think? Here are a few suggestions on how to interprete the numbers:

• When it comes to totals, the two seer classes are only bested by 2 other classes, the skalds and the shadowblades. That doesn't look too bad, does it? Keep in mind though, that there are only 2 seer classes, but 7 tank classes (if you include the rogues). Does this warrant a call for more seers?
• Note that there are more shamans than healers, but there are more healers at 40+ than shamans... Perhaps due to the latest buff-bot fad?
• 915 skalds?? Tihs suggests that Skalds are, or rather have been, a fashion class at some point. The huge number of 40+ skalds suggests that it was a while ago.
• Spiritmasters omg! Only 67 level 40+? Safe to say this hasn't been a fashion class. Closer inspection reveals 34 lvl 50 spiritmasters. The relative high percentage of -40 sms suggests that it's a class on the rise (surely due to their pbaoe nuke abilities) but they are still the smallest class.
• 666 -40 shadowblades? This suggests that shadowblades below lvl 41 are evil... With 842 characters, shadowblades are the second largest class in midgard/prydwen. Can you say fashion class? This is quite evident in Malmohus, where you can often find G2's with 4-5 shadowblades.
• Hunters are almost as rare as spiritmasters. What is it with the midgarian shunning of pet classes?
• Howcome the purest tank class of them all, the warrior, is the smallest of all the tank classes? And this in the melee realm?
• The Berserk is apparently the latest fashion class. There's a high number of -40 compared to 40+. Just compare the number of 40+ zerks and 40+ warriors, and take into consideration that there are more than 10% more zerks than warriors...

Anyway, these are just suggestions on how to interprete the numbers. Feel free to post your own thoughts...


--
Dingbat - 50 Pox Bot, Clan Chaos

 

[Lanfaer]

How many L50 seers are there compared to the rest of the L50 populas ?

 

[Dingbat]

I should've included those numbers as well...

Class		Level 1-40	Level 41-50	Total		L50
===================================================================
Healer		464		212		676		105
Shaman		570		201		771		84
Skald		663		252		915		154
Warrior		452		157		609		94
Thane		450		199		649		114
Berserk		546		122		668		47
Savage		N/A		N/A		N/A		N/A
Spiritmaster	412		67		479		34
Runemaster	512		160		672		100
Bonedancer	N/A		N/A		N/A		N/A
Hunter		494		102		596		61
Shadowblade	666		176		842		121

 

[Solid]

There are more Shaman Buffbots than Shaman Active Chars on Mid/Pryd, thats a plainly obvious observation (hehe funny phrase) that you failed to pick up on.

Add to the fact Mid Healers are ineffective at doing the 2 things thar are extremly important in RvR, and will be even worse in the future.

A Pac Healer has poor/mediocre heals, a Mend healer has poor/mediocre CC.
With later patches making lower level spells have higher resist rates, this worsens the Mend Healer's plight as their CC is even worse.

Regardless of your stats, Midgard still has a seer problem, we need2x the number of Healers we currently have as they fulfil 2 roles that a single Healer is not well equipped for.

If I were to name the ideal Midgard RvR 8man gorup, I would include a Pac healer and a Mend healer as the backbone, as well as a Shaman. Midgard is in no position to field 3 seers per group at present, thats where the problem lies.

 

[Cush]

Originally posted by Dingbat

Shadowblade 666

ITS A SIGN!!!

 

[Dingbat]

Originally posted by Solid
There are more Shaman Buffbots than Shaman Active Chars on Mid/Pryd, thats a plainly obvious observation (hehe funny phrase) that you failed to pick up on.

Actually, I did pick up on that. Hence the comment about buff bots.

Regardless of your stats, Midgard still has a seer problem, we need2x the number of Healers we currently have as they fulfil 2 roles that a single Healer is not well equipped for.

I don't recall saying anything about midgard not having a seer problem. All I did was to post the numbers, I'll leave it to someone else to draw conclusions.

If I were to name the ideal Midgard RvR 8man gorup, I would include a Pac healer and a Mend healer as the backbone, as well as a Shaman. Midgard is in no position to field 3 seers per group at present, thats where the problem lies.

Indeed.

 

[Ottar]

> Midgard is in no position to field 3 seers per group at present,
> thats where the problem lies.

Well, according to Duskwave, about 10% of active Midgard population is healers. In RvR, that number is abviously absurd. Many who have played the class have said that Healer is less fun to play in RvR than in PvE. Altho critical to success of every RvR party, the find the exerience insufficiently rewarding. People want to be able to kill people. Assisting other people killing other people is inherently less fun to majority of us.

Now, obvious solution to make seers more fun to play would be to introduce capabilities for dealing out some sort of damage. That however has a danger of turning healer into another smite cleric type of class.

We now have the "better than skald melee" aug healer template. That is arguably more fun to play but somewhat less functional in support. For some reason, there still aint that many aug healers around.. I wonder, why?

Ottar

 

[Cush]

IMO if you want a tank make a warrior or a zerker instead of a aug healer.
Skipping the Pac line is to throw away one of the few things that we mids got that is good.
I for one rather play my shaman in rvr then my hunter or shadowblade.
Stealthers were way much more fun before when there werent so many of us. Lost its charm now

 

[old.Trine Aquavit]

Other realms have a primary healer and a primary CCer. We do too, it's just that they are on different specs rather than different classes.

I reckon you can treat Healers as two separate classes:

1. Pac Healers

Should have 48 Pac (generally 24/6/48 MAP). These are your CCers. A Pac 48 Healer has the best CC in the game, a Healer with less is significantly inferior in this role. Pac Healers should lead gank groups to get the CC insta off nice and early then follow up with AE CC.

2. Mend Healers

Pretty much any other spec. These are your primary healers. If you're not Pac specced you should have at least the first spread heal, which makes you a Mend Healer. Mend healers will generally heal and use single-target CC where necessary.

Aug Healers are generally Aug/Mend Healers. Those that don't spec to at least 30 Mend are pretty much solo/PvE only Healers. They'll do a gimpy job of either role in RvR.

Btw, the resist changes where resist is based on spell level have been in the game since 1.50 apparently.

 

[Solid]

Hehe Triine, prolly explains why my SB 40 DoT is resisted so much .

Anyway, I have een playing my Shaman a lot lately and even his Mend line is fun (PvE that is), I am a firm fan of Spec heals, nothing nicer than critting on spec heals and healing for silly huge amounts of hp .

A lot of HH Healers have specced to 33+ Mend and the Spread heals are wonderful

 

[[PS]Riddler]

Mmmmm... fear my crit heals now

 

[old.Trine Aquavit]

Oh, I've respecced Mend too, btw (from Aug, so everyone gains ).

I'm now 40/5/35 MAP

When I get more experienced with RvR I might consider a respec to 48 Pac, but I'm still learning the ropes in the frontier and Mend healing is a little more forgiving.

 

[ulukin]

To be honest I think most of the healers listed are more than likly inactive/semi active and not wishing to pigeon hole midgard players or tanks but generally in RvR healers/support classes recieve little or often no assistance.

Ive lost count of the times ive been left to die by my group whilst playing my healer/runemaster it gets frustrating playing a class thats meant to support a group and recieving no support back, frustrating to the point I very rarly use either of them in RvR unless its a guild group or people I know will take care of me.

The other problem has been touched upon where as healers are stuck with only being able to be effective in one of there spec lines having insta CC is great but when all to often its purged a pac specced healer can at best keep you alive an extra second or two personally id like to see healers get a boost to there spec points in a similar way to a certain staff wielding alb "seer" class got.

Mid needs more ACTIVE seers.

 

[ormorof]

i agree, we were talking about this in guild chat earlier today, midgard needs healers (and shamans that arent buff bots). however shamans that aren't buff bots have been pushed away from mending by group end regen requiring 32 aug, it means more and more shamans are going 41 cave, 32 aug and only 14 mend. basicly the spec line heal is useless and if youre not lvl 50 yet and trying to get to this spec, unless you fancy soloing or sitting about in malmo for hours then you're going to have a hard time off it

 

[avalokiteshvara]

I love playing my healer and when i first dinged 50 getting a grp in emain was no problem. then came the SB wave and since then i have had a hard time getting a grp. Actually I decided to retire Buddha a few days ago after running solo to amgE 3 times.
Also remember a healer with a pet on him cant do anything at all last time i had a grp in emain i managed to mezz the albs but i got a pet on me, i got killed by a blue con pet cuz my grp was busy getting a few rpts from ganking the tanks, on top of that I got abuse thrown at me for not healing. No wonder healers doesnt like to go RvR.

 

[Gallak]

Hmm I was originally going aug specc but I'm starting to rethink as I get closer to 50.

Aug gives:
group resists: Body Spirit and energy, basically the 3 that shammies don't have, all fairly useful

self buffs: My str/con and damage shield mean that I can survive quite well as my attacker slowly drains their life away on me, unfortunately FA and IP make this less useful than it should be, at least I have my 2 instaheals, single and group to keep me alive (both from speccing into mend to 25). At the moment in PvE I'm going for a stave just for the fun way it looks, but with my self dex buff and damage add expect to see me with a shield and hammer in battle

celerity: celerity=teh uber... in PvE or keep takes with noone bashing you, its a group mellee buff, in a mellee spec, that has a 3 second cast time (ie interrupterama when the healer is in there trying to mellee too) :/ if Mythic make this a shout in the future (and increase its very poor 1000 range) celerity will become far far more useful in general RvR

The problem with aug is mainly that it nerfs 2 of the most important skills healers have, healing and CC, without actually doing much for the healer/group while they're in combat. It also nerfs their power regen buff since this is put into Pac, imho although it tempts people towards the battlewinning CC spec, it means that other specs (mend especially) really suffer. A mainly mend healer has got terrible power regen, limitting how many heals they can do, a little ironic considering the class name :/ Biased tho I am, I would prefer power regen was moved either into aug (after all its something that augments the classes ability ) or mend, so that healing is a viable option for healers.

Celerity is an aug healers best ability but having it high means not having the insta CC you need to actually get out of a fight long enough to use it, or nerfing your healing abilities in order to put those few more points in pac to get the instas.

My original planned spec for Belmadran was:

45 aug, best celerity, best speed and the points you get from dropping this to 44 just for best celerity do absolutely nothing for the other 2 specs
25 Mend, 400 at a time high mana heals, 230 low mana heals, single and group instaheals
16 Pac, 2nd power regen, 25 sec casted ae mezz

but after some reorganising based on my current level 44.5 spec I'm thinking of going:

37 aug: 2nd best celerity 2nd best resistances, 55 str/con buff and a 6dps self shield
25 mend : same healing as above
30 pac: single target insta stun and instamezz, hopefully enough to stop people hitting me so I can actually cast celerity and use my wanted ability to start hitting them back properly

I'm considering not training any points from now to 50 until I know what mythics plans are for Midgard in the coming patches (the albion changes were just the first wave as far as I understand)

 

[SilverHood]

bah Buddha, come RvR with us... we'll take good care of you

promise!

 

[Elrond/Ruffting]

I think it's slightly wrong to look at those stats and say...'midgard doesn't have a seer problem' as it's clear we do. You'll probably find that at least 50% of the level 50 healers are used in pure PvE only as they have rolled more fun alts, such as SB (myself included) to use in RvR. I strongly agree with Ottar here, healers are quite an unsatisfying class to play in RvR and only a small minority seem to enjoy it...as he said, most people have the inherant desire to kill things, and Healer is probably the one class in the whole game that can't solo or at least do any damage to anything in RvR (even a cleric can smite a bit and a druid can get his crappy pet to attack something )

I think this is where the problem lies...for our guild/alliance raids in DF/SI zones and PvE in general there is an abundance of healers...however as soon as it comes to RvR the most common phrase is "one sec, logging my shadowblade". I think every seer in my guild has an alt that is level 50 or almost there that they intend to use in RvR as their main.

 

[Elrond/Ruffting]

Also another thing I'd like to mention is that in RvR, especially with regards to albs, they have a hell of a lot more rezzers; Friars are a popular class, clerics seem to be about a fair bit as well...but the main advantage is paladins. If u compare the popularity of the albion secondary rez class, the paladin, to the midgard secondary rez class, the spiritmaster, you'll see what I'm getting at. It's not even that often you see spiritmasters in RvR, let alone ones who have specced so they can rez, whereas all paladins are able to rez as its on their primary spec line that noone is without (like skalds and battlesongs) Imo giving skalds rez would have been fairer

 

[Aurilius]

Howcome the purest tank class of them all, the warrior, is the smallest of all the tank classes? And this in the melee realm?

Because they suck bigtime. Only good in PvE. Take it from me - I have 1 as main character.

 

[Fafnir]

I've started a healer, got one to lvl 19 on my main account, had to solo all the way. None was intressted to group cept, thoose 2-3 lvls below. Put him as looking for group 90% of the time. But most groups had buffbots running with them and didn't need healer.

So if you are looking for a pac healer, msg got a lvl 10 on bot account atm

 

[zapzap]

Healer will go to emain sit in Pk or outside average time 50 min b4 he gets a group, will test it more times but this as benn the case last 5 times for me.
healer has to do all for the group but nobody does anything for the healer :/
take pet of me ( sorry iam killing a caster )
Iam dead ( dont worry we get u next port )
Archer on me ( I have my protection guard on the other tank )
Iam rezzing ( where are u we ran to Amg )
LFG ( can i have a pom ect )
LFG in cg ( we need a rez at mmg , 2 min later sorry no space.
( can u rez me? ) yes but as u can see my group ran on, ( fuck U )

I still enjoy my healer even it does my head, got 22 aug 31 mend rest pac, have tried full aug have tried full pac, but this is nice spec.
The bateri RA helps abit when it comes to healing and gives the healer time to mess and stun to begin with.

When a shammy is grouped with a healer and he is pac how often do u see the shammy heal ? like never ? sorry to say it but a pac healer is also using his gimp baseline heals that cant keep anything up for long 220 heals well a bit more then a shammy but not so much a shammy shouldnt help heal and just dot away.

Give deffencive tanks like albs have, you almost never find a alb caster or healer stand alone in batle where as mid healers caster are left to protect them self, fells so stupid having to use group instean heal just because I have a green pet on me.

OFC THIS IS NOT ABOUT ALL MIDS BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENDS IN A RANDOM MID GROUP.

We happy give buffs almost like robots, tanks have to be asked 4 -10 times b4 u will see an intercept guard or protect.


ASK WHAT U CAN DO FOR U HEALER AND NOT WHAT U HEALER CAN DO FOR U pppppppppppppppppp

Zapsi still forced to pull out his sb since groups for healers are like getting a legion drop :/

 

[Dingbat]

Originally posted by zapzap
Zapsi still forced to pull out his sb since groups for healers are like getting a legion drop :/

Good thing I've got one, then...

--
teh bat

 

[old.Mu.]

Hm, I enjoy my mend/aug shaman (yes, a shaman with low cave that isn't a buffbot) immensely. Nothing I enjoy more than standing behind a wall or a tree and cycling my group heal as fast as possible. 27 Mend 32 Aug atm. Cave is 26(?)ish, but the only spells from the cave line I ever cast are roots, AE roots, AE disease, etc. Things that can help with CC/interrupts, due to the severe lack of healers out there.

In retrospect, I suppose I should've rolled a mend healer. But they can't be kobolds.

When a shammy is grouped with a healer and he is pac how often do u see the shammy heal ? like never ? sorry to say it but a pac healer is also using his gimp baseline heals that cant keep anything up for long 220 heals well a bit more then a shammy but not so much a shammy shouldnt help heal and just dot away.

My spec-heal heals for 293 every time and I almost have enough RSPs for Wild Healing 2.

 

[zapzap]

My spec-heal heals for 293 every time and I almost have enough RSPs for Wild Healing 2.


Cast time is more why I never used it :/

 

[insomnia]

Red Top once said:

Statistics is the knowledge that teaches you that if a you stand with one foot in boiling water and the other one in a freezer you have should have it quite average
(dunno a good translation for this but I can take it in swedish aswell)

statistisk är den lära som säger att om en människa står med en for i kokande vatten och den andra foten i en frys så har hon det i genomsnitt ganska bra

 

[Cadire]

....and 89% of statisitics are made up on the spot

Playing a Healer, especially in RvR is not much fun at all. Most people are focussed on one thing, RPs, basically leaving the Healers to fend for themselves. Tanks yell 'HEAL ME', not even looking to see if their seer is getting the shit kicked out of him by an enemy smart enough to pick their targets carefully.

Of course some people do know how to look after their Healers, but I'm afraid they are in the minority.

Midgard has a shortage of seers, particularly Healers, because generally they don't deserve them, don't know how to protect them, and treat them as nothing more than PoX dispensers/Rezzers.

Once a player has dinged 50 (with major contributions from Seers), they tend to forget about Healers, and prefer to go /flex with their fellow damage dealers.

 

[zapzap]

Well said Cadire

 

[Dwarfdeep]

Another Semi retired Healer here.

I have to back up what Zap and Cadire are saying. Tharkun was made afk due to having to spend 2hr + at Svasud and both MPK lfg.

Theres only so long you can tap your macro '50 pac healer lfg' before you go and do something more fun.

If you want your healer to heal, defend him, simple as that

Otherwise this server will end up being even more of a stealther only zone!

(my spec 22, 19, 45 MAP, seems to work for me )

 

[Biby]

!

Originally posted by zapzap


OFC THIS IS NOT ABOUT ALL MIDS BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENDS IN A RANDOM MID GROUP.

^^^^^^
Thats whay i dont like random grps... We took down NP 3 times in row with guildgrp couple days ago - it was even 8vs8 battle. Why? Coz everyone in guildgrp know his job + we can make nice balanssed team.
NP - its really fun to play against u when u move as 1 FG, nm that ur GRPpurge is lame and chanters ar ****( u know ).


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