Start some new server?

[Esselinithia]

Manisch abovelaw: Do you have permission to use a software because you got it without a valid licence? Since you got your warez versions etc.

No you can't.

What you can is to use it according to licence. Without a valid licence you can't do anything.

If you would know even the smallest bit of law, you would know EULA, and other similar agreements are *contracts* and all contracts have strong legal meanings.

Unlike you, the people who worded EULA studied law for many years and know what a contract is.

Unlike you, most people know they don't have rights to use the software without licence, and they know they are bound by rules of FH as well. if you break the rules, you break the contract that allows you to use FH, if you use it after that: you use it without permission.

And using a computer system without permission and using it to promote illegal activity is also a problem.

We elso know what came when people reverse engineered the encryption used in DVDs, and we also know that your favorite linux related communities celebrated it, and then it was found as illegal.

And in case of DoL servers: They are nice, and fine, but they are reverse engineered products, and reverese engineerd to provide something similar. Such reverse engineering is illegal in itself

Interopatibility with other computer problems are valid reasons for reverse engineering only as long as you don't try to copy the original, but in this case people who use DoL reverse engineer several stuff from daoc, where they don't have a licence for that, and use it to copy the functionality of another problem.

Which is expressly forbidden by the law.

Also: Connecting to free servers, and running free servers are mentioned as illegal in EULA, the stuff you looked into doesn't speak about "using your daoc copy with program outside of licence" but speaks about decompiling the binaries you have.

It doesn't authorize you to "reverse engineer" the server by analyzing messages, since you don't have rights to run the server.
It doesn't authorize you to use daoc client with any other server, and players don't reverse engineer anything.

So still DoL is illegal

 

[Kami]

US Classic servers are still a blast, not much full blown rvr going due to dragon raids but the battlegrounds are all packed. Heck I even took out my necro into CV the other night and managed to have fun (died lots of course).

Thid is packed, 30-40 mids, similar number of albs and perhaps 20 hibs. Oddly molvik is the opposite, tons of hibs and less of the other two, but it's still a laugh.

 

[joap]

Manisch abovelaw: Do you have permission to use a software because you got it without a valid licence? Since you got your warez versions etc.

No you can't.

What you can is to use it according to licence. Without a valid licence you can't do anything.

If you would know even the smallest bit of law, you would know EULA, and other similar agreements are *contracts* and all contracts have strong legal meanings.

Quite true. But have you never seen a court ruling against specific contract clauses and considering invalid? I'm thinking about credit cards for example, i remember seeing news about complaints from consumer protection agencies against abusive credit card contracts, taking them to court and having the court consider those portions of the contract null.

And in case of DoL servers: They are nice, and fine, but they are reverse engineered products, and reverese engineerd to provide something similar. Such reverse engineering is illegal in itself

I am no laywer, but then wouldnt all reverse engineering be illegal?
When the BIOS from the original PC was reverse engineered it was done to provide a similar product, and the courts found that ok, or am i wrong?

 

[Esselinithia]

Depends on the contract, but there is no proof to say these points are illegal, there IS a point that says, if you would have a different kind of game server that is independent from daoc server (no same zone data, no reverse engineered parts, etc) and there wouldn't be any protection involved you would be able to reverse engineer the client (and only the client) for interopatibility.

Nothing says you can use the game client wth any kind of server and that limits on that aren't allowed. nothing grants you the permission the break the encryption used in communication with server. nothing grants you a permission to access daoc servers for reverse engineering. nothing grants you a permission to reverse engineer the server (you don't have a licence for that).

And the contract is binding as long as court doesn't say it is invalid Manisch is free to sue GOA (and EA) and try to make them invalid. But till that they are effective. Same with FH rules about promoting freeshards.

 

[joap]

Nothing says you can use the game client wth any kind of server and that limits on that aren't allowed. nothing grants you the permission the break the encryption used in communication with server. nothing grants you a permission to access daoc servers for reverse engineering. nothing grants you a permission to reverse engineer the server (you don't have a licence for that).

Do you go by the "anything not explicitly permited is forbiden" school of thought?
If you don't then the question is not what "grants you the right to...", but what forbids you from doing those things.

Tbfh, i don't have the patience to read the freaking eula (sue me goa) but on other servers i found only:

The authorisations granted to you in accordance with this Agreement
 may under no circumstances be used for the purpose of creating or supplying 
any opportunity for third parties to access the Game and its Expansions, 
particularly through server emulators

If i understand it right this only applies to the person running the server. The person creating or supplying any opportunity for third parties to access the Game and its Expansions is the person who runs the server not the other players.

And the contract is binding as long as court doesn't say it is invalid Manisch is free to sue GOA (and EA) and try to make them invalid. But till that they are effective. Same with FH rules about promoting freeshards.

It cuts both ways.
What a wonderfull thing then that people are adminting that they have violated the EULA on an internet forum for it means that GOA/EA-Mythic can sue them.

 

[Esselinithia]

You aren't allowed to changed the .dat files in the installation

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Manisch abovelaw: Do you have permission to use a software because you got it without a valid licence? Since you got your warez versions etc.

No you can't.

What you can is to use it according to licence. Without a valid licence you can't do anything.

If you would know even the smallest bit of law, you would know EULA, and other similar agreements are *contracts* and all contracts have strong legal meanings.

Unlike you, the people who worded EULA studied law for many years and know what a contract is.

Unlike you, most people know they don't have rights to use the software without licence, and they know they are bound by rules of FH as well. if you break the rules, you break the contract that allows you to use FH, if you use it after that: you use it without permission.

And using a computer system without permission and using it to promote illegal activity is also a problem.

We elso know what came when people reverse engineered the encryption used in DVDs, and we also know that your favorite linux related communities celebrated it, and then it was found as illegal.

And in case of DoL servers: They are nice, and fine, but they are reverse engineered products, and reverese engineerd to provide something similar. Such reverse engineering is illegal in itself

Interopatibility with other computer problems are valid reasons for reverse engineering only as long as you don't try to copy the original, but in this case people who use DoL reverse engineer several stuff from daoc, where they don't have a licence for that, and use it to copy the functionality of another problem.

Which is expressly forbidden by the law.

Also: Connecting to free servers, and running free servers are mentioned as illegal in EULA, the stuff you looked into doesn't speak about "using your daoc copy with program outside of licence" but speaks about decompiling the binaries you have.

It doesn't authorize you to "reverse engineer" the server by analyzing messages, since you don't have rights to run the server.
It doesn't authorize you to use daoc client with any other server, and players don't reverse engineer anything.

So still DoL is illegal

Can you provide some links to laws backing your claims up that reverse engineering is forbidden? That you can't modify a legally bought software to your own needs? I gave 2 web links to the corresponding laws regulating those issues. Now you say there is law forbidding it. Please provide me with the paragraphs, let's limit it to Europe.

What do you mean with "Since you got your warez versions etc."? I bought all my 4 Euro accounts and expansions through GoA and two US accounts through Mythic.

If DoL is illegal go and shut it down or contact EA about it, they have enough lawyers. They will laugh right into your face if they are not stupid, regardless of what's in the EULA. There are enough laws contradicting most of it.

You're talking about valid contracts and licenses where there is adjudication that says those EULAs are not valid contracts or licenses at all. Even most general terms and conditions over here in Germany are partly or complete invalid because they are contradicting national / European / international law.

You say I didn't study law, that's correct, but I don't live in a dream world where I think that anything written is true. Especially I don't live in a dream world where guys like you can go around freely and call others criminals, and saying something is illegal while it isn't is criminalizing the people doing it. I have been head of a work council backing up the rights of ~ 60 employees at a software company, and project manager / software developer for middleware applications - not only in that time I've spoken to more lawyers than you will probably ever will (I think my assumptions about you beat yours about me .)

Or are you just taking the piss? Some time ago you claimed the dueling is illegal and you didn't give up until a GM said on FH that it surely isn't the case. Then you went on and redefined what you meant with dueling and claimed something similar.

I told you that ideas can't be copyrighted and patents for software do not exist in Europe. Hopefully it will stay this way.

What do you mean with my "favorite linux related communities"? Use whatever you want, I am not as dogmatic as you are. On CSS, yeah, it's maybe illegal in the USA if you can't pay the 45 lawyers the suitor is bringing in, but the guy from Norway (who wrote DeCSS) who got sued by the MPAA is a free man, MPAA lost the case and didn't even go to the highest court in Norway, they lost in two instances.

The situation is similar in all of Europe.

Many questions raised, I doubt you can answer to any of the points raised.

Don't know why I am so friendly, maybe you're Requiel or sucking up to GoA, I don't know. Some EULA != law - try to understand that.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Manisch is free to sue GOA (and EA) and try to make them invalid. But till that they are effective. Same with FH rules about promoting freeshards.

No, I am not free to do it. GoA can claim all it wants in their EULA. As long as they don't take any legal action against the guys programming GoL and running the free shard you can moan all day long.

I am not even promoting them, I am having a discussion. I wouldn't want to play on a free shard because of the lack of professional service - char wipes, resets and CS mentality DAoC players.

I prefer to earn my money and pay for a good entertainment.

Maybe you should try to get out of your cage for once. It really starts to hurt to read all this.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

You aren't allowed to changed the .dat files in the installation

Says the EULA, we got it. GoA/Mythic can ban you for that if you do it, we got it.

It still is not illegal. They can try to sue it for you, but there is no criminal law covering it. They would have to take it to a civil action.

And what would be the point of it? Why isn't Microsoft taking successful civil actions against guys providing SAMBA services on other operating systems? The protocol got reverse engineered. Why did Sega lose versus Accolade when Accolade reverse engineered a lot and provided cheaper games than others? They didn't even buy a license from Sega.

Illegal are those things the police, prosecutors and the courts take care of. Not some EULA. Even if you are not protected against civil actions from companies which write those EULAs, the chances for them to be successful against a project like DoL are minimal.

Maybe it's about semantics, maybe you just don't know what the word illegal means?

 

[Thadius]

Says the EULA, we got it. GoA/Mythic can ban you for that if you do it, we got it.

It still is not illegal. They can try to sue it for you, but there is no criminal law covering it. They would have to take it to a civil action.

And what would be the point of it? Why isn't Microsoft taking successful civil actions against guys providing SAMBA services on other operating systems? The protocol got reverse engineered. Why did Sega lose versus Accolade when Accolade reverse engineered a lot and provided cheaper games than others? They didn't even buy a license from Sega.

Illegal are those things the police, prosecutors and the courts take care of. Not some EULA. Even if you are not protected against civil actions from companies which write those EULAs, the chances for them to be successful against a project like DoL are minimal.

Maybe it's about semantics, maybe you just don't know what the word illegal means?

Well then, if you change the GOA update.dat to the US one, isnt that breaking GOA EULA?

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Well then, if you change the GOA update.dat to the US one, isnt that breaking GOA EULA?

Who cares? I have never read that stuff anyway. When I bought my first copy I didn't have the possibility to read it. That alone makes it in countries like the UK for example invalid (UK's Unfair Contract Terms Act from 1977).

I pay my subs and play according to their rules but not doing it doesn't mean you are a criminal.

From a technical perspective you don't need to modify the file, you can change the DNS record of your DNS server or just map the host/domain to a different IP in your operating systems hosts file.

 

[Thadius]

Who cares? I have never read that stuff anyway. When I bought my first copy I didn't have the possibility to read it. That alone makes it in countries like the UK for example invalid (UK's Unfair Contract Terms Act from 1977).

I pay my subs and play according to their rules but not doing it doesn't mean you are a criminal.

From a technical perspective you don't need to modify the file, you can change the DNS record of your DNS server or just map the host/domain to a different IP in your operating systems hosts file.

The reasonw hy I ask ebcause surely changing the update.dat is just as bad as running a freeshard?

They are both breaking the EULA, so cant really punish one and letting the other off scot free

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

The reasonw hy I ask ebcause surely changing the update.dat is just as bad as running a freeshard?

They are both breaking the EULA, so cant really punish one and letting the other off scot free

:worthy:

 

[Takitothemacs]

I still maintain that GOA failed in a duty of care to its customers to ensure a viable and sustainable player base... but thats just me.

 

[Thadius]

I still maintain that GOA failed in a duty of care to its customers to ensure a viable and sustainable player base... but thats just me.

No its not, thats everyone who has quit GOA servers and left it in the sorry state Dyvet is in

 

[Jupiter]

click wrap licenses are nearly impossible to enforce. Unless you are ditributing pirate software these people will rarely come after u.

 

[Flintlock]

US Classic servers are still a blast, not much full blown rvr going due to dragon raids but the battlegrounds are all packed. Heck I even took out my necro into CV the other night and managed to have fun (died lots of course).

Thid is packed, 30-40 mids, similar number of albs and perhaps 20 hibs. Oddly molvik is the opposite, tons of hibs and less of the other two, but it's still a laugh.

It really is this good on US Classic Servers - a real blast.

By the way setting up a home server for DAoC was a lot of work. My mate gave up eventually. Still was amazing though and a great way to test out any alt. Full buffs - best kit. Think about it if you want to pwn. Still have to deal with peeps that exploit every aspect of the game though - like Thugs. Oh well that is the way of things!

 

[Richard]

tbh i think noone will come back to DaOc now that warhammer comes online too unless they start paying ppl to play ofc