Speech from Bush

[minstrel_kyra]

(part 2)

So let’s do this. We’ll just leave the middle east for good. Yeah that’s right we will just go home, then everything will be real peaceful over there . The only thing that stood between Baghdad and a mushroom cloud during the Gulf War was us. Israel had their planes in the air, ready to level Baghdad. We talked them down.

Another fact:
The US is NOT anti-Muslim. We are trying very hard to help Turkey defend themselves against the more radical countries. They are a democratic country which is financially stable. Turkey is the only Muslim country that is in NATO. And speaking of NATO, it is a shame the the word ALLY means so little to the French (please don’t check Iraq’s financial records when you invade, wouldn’t want to find all those UN trade violations) and German (what, us sell illegal arms?) when it comes to money. If any of the countries in NATO were threatened, we would be there in a heartbeat.
Too bad some of our allies don't feel the same.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/12/sprj.irq.nato.solana/index.html
Even the press in the UK wonders what they are up to.
http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/opi...01.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/02/11/ixnewstop.html

And it's the US threatening "world peace", transatlantic
relationships and the stability of Nato at the moment- not Iraq.

AGAIN, WRONG. Its France, Germany, and Belgium going against NATO despite these countries agreeing that Iraq is clearly in violation of U.N. resolution 1441.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/06/sprj.irq.powell.world.reax/index.html

And the reason why France and Germany want to wait? Because its a known fact that our "allies" have been suppling materials for nuclear warheads and biological warfare.

Oh... want to know who delivered the first Anthrax spores to Iraq? Donald Rumsfeld. No kidding.

However you gave no source of this comment. Luckily for you I found it, and from a Socialist newsgroup none the less, no bias there .
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1833/sw183311.htm

This was when Iraq was our ally against Iran. Was it not very bright, perhaps. But what we should be most concerned with is who is supplying the material now and its France and Germany. A very good website to learn more about what Iraq is up to and how long ago people knew is http://www.iraqwatch.org. France and Germany have been giving Iraq these supplies since after we severed our relationship with Iraq. It IS all about their money. But I do feel sorry for France. If Iraq decides they don't like the French any longer, they have no way to defend themselves.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wfran16.xml

Finally about Afghanistan...We are offering aid to them. In fact, here is an article of the most recent visit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A30234-2003Jan8¬Found=true
Its certainly not enough and its my deepest hope that we are able to help them back to a self-sustaining state.

One last misconception about me:
That I want war. I don't. Most Americans don't. But we do want to see an end to Bin Laden, Iraq, and N. Korea's aggression towards us (just because we pretend to ignore N. Korea doesn’t mean we aren’t working on that). Furthermore, can you honestly say that if Iraq/Bin Laden/N. Korea succeeds in destroying my country that they will stop there? Perhaps with France and Germany but what about the rest of Europe? Who will defend you when we are gone?? Whether we like it or not, we are the policemen of the world. It has been this way since the end of WWII. While the English Navy is indeed very mighty, they can't face a foe like Iraq/Bin Laden/N. Korea by themselves and you know it. You may not like the way we do things but when things get ugly we are called in to help. Go ahead and hate us because we refuse to become a socialistic country or let another ruling faction (i.e. the UN) tell us how to run our country. Even hate us for supporting Israel. And you know what, you can even hate Bush for coming from a rich family (That is your country's favorite past-time and yet the Queen of England is still living off your taxes and you guys do nothing to stop this). Bush is known to be dyslexic and has admitted in the past he had a drinking problem, and yet that is all you guys can say about him. I suggest that perhaps before you start picking apart others that maybe you
fix the problems of your own country first before sticking your nose where it’s not wanted.

Other things to clear up:
1. In regards to why we want to get Saddam out of the business of developing weapons of mass destruction, there is something very important to remember. We know that the majority of countries with nuclear weapons use them as a deterrent to war, not as actual weapons. Saddam, on the other hand, would lose no sleep whatsoever over destroying his country at the entire middle east. That makes him different and someone who is very dangerous.

2. What if we had not fought the Gulf War and left Saudi Arabia to Saddam? He would have conquered Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, then turned his blood-lust on the other Arabic countries and Israel. This would have been WWIII and there is a very good chance that nuclear war would have broken out. So dump the oil war argument in our laps. We’re adults we can handle it. Even better, you give up using your oil and convince car manufactures to make family sized "green" cars that will travel at standard highway speed, can go for several hours without being recharged, AND not cost a fortune. Hmm any volunteers?

3. A comment was made that we let the continent of Africa starve. Have we given as much as we should? No. But even more ludicrous is the fact that as soon as President Bush promises billions of dollars in aid, the world calls him a hypocrite that just wants good press. Excuse me, but when did Clinton ever promise $15 billion to a needy country?

It is obvious that no matter what we do to help, it will never be good enough for you guys. No matter, what do I care, its Ophra time and my cookies are done

 

[gengi]

Nice rebuttal Kyra


later

Gengee

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

I will express my opinion in the form of a street gangster from New York or Chelsea, it's up to you to decide...

Yo, dat cunt sadaman is a bith yo, he's bin messin' wit ma hoes down in da east side and he needs a cap in his ass yo. My brother Bush is the only crazy gangstar maaad enough to do it, yo.

It's no secret dat Sadam is buildin' nuklear weapons yo, he want to wipe out the west side and take my hoes and shag them yo.

Bitch no!

Oka, inncosent peeps are gonna go to the big gangster in the sky yo but we all die eventually, whether it be by getting shot by the cops whilst runnin' wit da drugs or muggin some old bitch and she pulls out her shotgun and blasts you in the nuts.

I say fuck it, lets get all the leaders together and giv them uzi's and shit and then send them after sadaman.

AlKa-eda are pussies yo, they be hidin' in da caves smoking dope and shit. Any fucker dat goes round hidin bitches faces should get fucked in the ass by my mate John.

Bush is a wargrocer yeah, he be likin' da wars but you gotta stick up for your own team man, if Thatcher wants to send troups to Afrika then ya gotta be supportin' dem or weve had alweady lost yo.

 

[gengi]

Gotta be Chelsea, John and cunt give it away

Later

Gengee

 

[old.Atrox]

Kyra how about posting links to your "evidence" from some "not goverment controlled media"

If you think we are gonna belive what those sites say about the current situation in iraq, then your dumber then the average american.

Will be fun to see how much lies USA manage to spew out during this Crusade.


God bless America( screw the rest )

AGAIN, WRONG. Its France, Germany, and Belgium going against NATO despite these countries agreeing that Iraq is clearly in violation of U.N. resolution 1441.

Oh silly me, I never thought "not agreeing to nuke the crap out of what ever Family Bush points at" were wrong.
If you think NATO is USA's bitches maybe you should think again.

There is a swedish folksaying (gonna try to translate it)
When the brains run out the Fists take over. ( I guess Bush are all out of brains )

 

[old.Atrox]

Kyra is this what you think "charity work" is ?

That picture are from one of USA's "Charity works"
It's not only the "bad guys" that dies, often they are the ones that gets hit the lest from USA's goodwill.


but sure go ahead, go destroy a few innocent civilians lifes, go ahead, go secure your Oil resorces.

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

Welcome to the show, toay's topic is, 'There are always two sides to an arguement'.

To be honest I think you're all being very rude to kyra. I expected the people in here to actually be more intelliegent than to say some of the things said here.

kyra obviously feels very strongly about this, try taking her point of view and your point of view onboard before spouting out more racist remarks eh?

And yes, they're racist and stereotypical. All Americans are stupid blah blah blah, aren't you all fucking cool eh?

 

[old.tRoG]

*sniffs*

 

[old.Atrox]

Fons ofc it has 2 sides, I dont disagree about that something need to be done about the situation, not only in Iraq.
but I do disagree about the way Bush wanna do it, a war wont solve anything for Iraq.


Btw who financed Bush campaign ?

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Well, speaking for myself here (how come I always feel the need to point that out...?) - there is nothing I despise more than stupidity.

Krya's post was a fire-and-forget, stereotypical, propaganda filled pile of shtoopid.

Atrox' has a point - America's wars are always just and righteous... if a civilian gets it, they call it "collateral damage" - sounds nicer than "civilian casualty", doesn't it?

It's that self-righteous attitude that gets half the globe going.

Hawai and Maine have declared that this war is not justified and wrong, which proves there are thinking and critical Americans – and luckily - so is my wife.

There have been oh-so-patriotic-Kyra-posts before... all fire-and-forget style.
She has her little say, calls us ungrateful Europeans, tells us Dubya is doing a great job, Clinton was the anti-Christ and then vanishes to never appear again...

If she was so sure of herself and her beloved president, she would come here and discuss.
Anyone remember the 9/11 thread? The discussion was polite and based on facts for the most part – she comes, has her little say and disappears yet again...

True, Fonz... it’s not about Americans as people – and slagging off a whole country just because it’s government is fucked up and twisted beyond recognition is wrong – it’s rather (in my case) about Kyra being a nationalist fuckwit.



Atrox - who financed Bush's campaign?
Oil companies... oh, and weapon manufacturers.
Surprise, surprise.

And on a sidenote - people, if you write long, long posts... put some paragraphs in, makes it easier to read. Thanks.

 

[gengi]

I have to agree with the Fonz, he's cool . This thread has taken a nasty turn especially against Kyra. It is unfair for any of us to 'brand' anyone. (except Derric and kR0n) .
I reiterate my first point 'where would you rather live, Baghdad, I will even let it be before the first Gulf War. Or in the (relatively) free liberal Western European country you currently do ? This 'war' is about more than America and Britains, and most other European countries come to that, Imperial ambitions. It is coming to the point where the way we live is at threat. Tanks at Heathrow ? I personally do not draw a line from Iraq to Al Quaeda secular dictators have major problems with any faith other than in themselves, (look to most dictatorships severe curtailing of religious freedom) Same goes for the devout they cannot trust someone who does not believe as they do.
Insularity, bigotry and xenophobia are becoming stronger. I hope the debate can continue with a bit less of these.
We are all entitled to an opinion, but try to argue a case rather than attack a people or country ?? might work eh ?

Kyra your posts were well researched and put together, I answered before where I thought you lost it, an opinion not a you are thick because your American rant.

There WILL be a military conflict in Iraq, there will be terror in the world as a direct result of it. In the end I believe we will look back on it and see it as the correct thing to do.

That is my opinion feel free to offer a counter opinion.

Later

Gengee

 

[Cavex ElSaviour]

Re: (part 2)

Originally posted by minstrel_kyra


Another fact:
The US is NOT anti-Muslim. We are trying very hard to help Turkey defend themselves against the more radical countries. They are a democratic country which is financially stable. Turkey is the only Muslim country that is in NATO.

Turkey is NOT a muslim country. The majority of the ppl living there are muslims but the army is doing EVERYTHING to prevent turkey into turning in to a sharia state. I don't know if that's good or bad. Sadam is against radical islam because it will undermine his power, hence the war against iran. Iraq is one the richest countries in the middle east, they got enough water to make the the rest of the countries there fertile (another reason for the iran-iraq war), they got loads of oil, the kuwait thing was because kuwait was draining oil from under iraq's territory, iraq was under the impression that the us would back them up, the ambasador of the us in iraq even told them the us would. Before i sound pro iraq lets get one thing clear. Sadam is a dictator that needs to be removed. But who gives the US the right to do that? Because sadam might attack the us? will that give north korea the same right to attack the us because the us might attack north korea? apart from that, this war will only make sure that a few thousand children will loose their fathers and will become a terrorist in a few years.

To add my opinion, The majority of the us and the bush minions just cant face the facts that they can't take revenge on the 11/9 disaster.

 

[calif101]

first off let me tell everyone i am not anti American/america good god i`m married to one and living there,But i have noticed that the press here is bombarding us with propaganda yes propaganda and the population believes it,this is no fault of the ppl just the way in which the people are brought up.

The goverment of America and Britain ( i am British) say that they have proof of saddams weapons of mass destruction,well i say show that proof...not some picture taken from a satellite but hard proof.If they were to do this instead of just saying they have it i know most of the world would say bomb him to hell.

As an British national i find it offensive to say that only America has the balls or the power to take on the likes of saddam,Just to make one point i served in the Royal Navy and can tell you that the British could take on saddam as he has no naval forces to speak of.

I really can not understand all this back stabbing going on here.
America is truely a good friend to have in the world and i for one trust America to help defend my island country more than i`d trust the likes of Franch/Germany but to say that without them we would be unable to defend ourselfs is wrong.Remember ppl that in WW11 Britain was fighting alone for 2 years and we did NOT beg America to get us out of the poo poo but asked America to open its eyes to what is going on and for those of you who do not know America did not declare on germany but the other way round on 11th december 1941.

America is hated in the world for the same reasons Britain was hated and in one hell of alot of countrys still hated,because both coutrys take no sh1t and stand up for the little guy.

So plz stop the hatred that will get no one anywhere but ppl What the proof before sending our boys to War and why shouldn`t we have that proof?

 

[old.The McScrooges]

Protecting Turkey? A U turn on Bush's campaign promise to the Armenian vote.

Weapons of Mass Destruction? Let us have full disclosure from the American Government on their research into new chemical and biological weapons. Mortar bombs full of nerve gas for Civil authorities?...

Removal of a ruthless dictator? A bit too late for all the Kurdish people

Prevention of global terrorism? Then stop training and funding the fuckers.

America is a global power but as a nation it is sadly too young and ignorant to involve itself on a global scale. Understand the world, experience war and the harsh consequences then maybe America will begin to understand why people are so opposed to this war.

 

[Sortbane]

As true as it gets!

 

[thorwyntf]

Who will defend you when we are gone??

...this sentence says it all.

Are you really that naive? Do you really think that the other countries in the world are too weak to defend themselves and to think for themselves? Who do guys you think you are? I`m sorry to shatter your ego, Kyra, but we do NOT NEED your suppoprt to stay alive.
And you´re surprised that people don´t like the US?????


Ok, lets stop this here, this is going nowhere. Continue to hide behind your pile of propaganda links, keep thinking that you´re the good guys and that it´s your godgiven task to save the world. Keep thinking that the european countries are your slaves and will die if the United States aren´t helping them anymore.

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

I'm all far sticking up for your own side kyra and you make some good points but to actually believe the British would be unable to defend themselves if America was gone is laughable.

I know everyone thinks us British all just sit around drinking tea and talking about how upper class we all our in our castles but in reality we are bloodthirsty thugs who love a good war.

We may seem gentle and unable to do anythng without American approval but we do get fucking mad when people threaten us, American support or not.

We've fought against the biggest machine of war ever assembled and won. We've run out in front of machine guns and asked for more. We've run through poison gas with nothing more than knives whilst getting shot at in the name of democracy.We've stuck up for everyone we've been able to at a massive expense to our economy.

When the British get backed into a corner, we're a force to be reckoned with.

Please don't think we'd roll over and let people walk all over us. It isn't the British way.

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

hehe...sorry, I just get pissed off when people say us Brits are just lapdogs for world powers.

It probably isn't what Kyra even meant tbh, I just don't know how to take it.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Way to go Gengee... changing your opinion like a flag in a hurricane...

Kyra’s post well researched? To express myself in simple words: LOLMAO

Turkey a moderate muslim state? Please go and check for Turkey - Kurds at www.amnestyinternational.com.
Torture, rape... whatever atrocities you want – the Turkish governement has already committed it.


And now it was only France and Germany delivering weapons to Saddam Hussein?
Some more ‚socialist‘ info, eh? http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm
Washington Post going Karl Marx! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52241-2002Dec29.html
Just do a Google-search for „Hussein, Rumsfeld“ – filled with commie propaganda!!

It wasn’t just the US, Germany and France delivering weapons to Iraq – half the western world did it in the 80ies... fighting the evil mullahs in Iran...

I think following quotes will just underline what a nationalist, lunatic, naive and uninformed half-wit you are...

I know the rest of the world hates Jewish people and our country's stance in supporting

... yes, everyone hates Jews – that’s a matter of fact. That’s what we socialist, commie old Europeans do...

People always whine about the poor Palestinians. Well what about how they oppressed the Israelites (Yes that would be the JEWISH DESCENDENTS that live in ISRAEL now) for hundreds of years before (and after) Jesus came along?

Uhm? Mmkay... Before and after Jesus came along? LOLROFLMAO – ok, please file a complaint against the Egyptians, Romans and Persians (plus various other assorted invaders...) before and a little after baby Jesus came along... and now, quite hilarious in context: the Turks! (You know... after they sacked Byzantine nowadays Istanbul). They owned the place until the British came around... who gave it to jewish settlers in 1947.

The Palestinians sure do have a rich, cultural background, eh...?

Oh, and get the fuck out of Oregon – it’s Cheyenne territory. The native Americans...you know.... opressed and killed by US governements for decades.

Arafat said it was all or nothing, he is unwilling to compromise. He will not be satisfied until no more Israelites exist. Does that sound like compromise or a peaceful man? We are the only ones keeping Israel from dropping bombs and getting rid of Palestinians once and for all. Was Clinton able to bring peace between these two countries?

Actually Clinton got Rabin and Arafat to peace talks in Camp David... then some right wing Israeli settler shot Rabin (right wing as in Sharon supporter)... once again – get your bloody facts straight.
The uprisings began when the new Israeli government started building settlements in Palestinian areas again...

A comment was made that we let the continent of Africa starve. Have we given as much as we should? No. But even more ludicrous is the fact that as soon as President Bush promises billions of dollars in aid, the world calls him a hypocrite that just wants good press. Excuse me, but when did Clinton ever promise $15 billion to a needy country?

The annual budget to aid third world countries equals the ammout of money needed to fuel the american war-machine for 2 days. In other words 1,7 billion US dollars.
1 year... 2 days.... catch my drift??????

Yes, Gengee... top-notch research on Kyra's side here.

Prevention of global terrorism? Then stop training and funding the fuckers.

Usama B. L. proud graduate of Camp-Terrorism-CIA...

 

[minstrel_kyra]

(just woke up so forgive my lack of posting)

How many sources did I use exactly? I'm not going to count but quite a few. So many of you think that every single one of the sources (I used google by the way) are all propoganda. Hmm. Even the sources from the UK are, eh? Wow. Did you guys even read those articles or no? I suppose I should be a good socialist and get my news from the socialist and communist free thinking sources, right? heh right.

Oh and nice picture of the Vietnam war. Again you think that I think war is good. Its not. Its an atrocity. Every life lost should be mourned. But you really think you are being clever by bringing up our past mistakes?

How many wars have Europe been involved in? Can you honestly say that you didn't kill anyone while defending what you believed in? No you can't.

I have a lot of faith that the British army/navy would do well to defend their people but they are the only ones. Couldn't possibly count on the french or german. And yes I do think the rest of the world is too weak to defend themselves against people who have absolutely no regard for human life. Maybe the Italians, Spaniards, Swedish and maybe the Russians might jump in, but when is the last time they had to fight a war? The most action these people have seen is when they did rotations as UN representatives. The poor men and women were probably scared out of their minds, just hoping for it to be over and I don't blaim them. Whether or not we get involved, military action will break out in the middle east. Its easy to blame America because we have come out loudly against Iraq.


And still none of you have yet to give any other solutions. NONE OF YOU. All I am hearing aside from a few is that AMERICA IS EVIL. You guys yourselves have agreed that Saddam is bad news, that he's a dictator and oppresses his people and yet you sit idly by and watch him continue to do so. Oh I see, that's your solution. Do nothing and watch Hitler, err Saddam continue to destroy his country.

BTW I never said this wasn't about oil, but think about this for a moment. We aren't the only ones that use oil. You guys use oil too, unless you have all moved to bikes and battery operated cars? If Saddam had gotten control of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait back in the 90's he would control over 25% of the world oil's supply. Then he would have the rest of the world paying twice or three times as much for that oil. Can you honestly say that the money would go to his starving people in his country? Hell no.

Again, I think war is wrong. I don't approve of the war. I don't want to see people die anymore than anyone else does. But I don't see that there is much else to do since Saddam won't surrender quietly to the UN or the US. Ignoring him would be a big mistake.

And btw, I never said I felt the countries of Europe were our slaves. What I said is that they depend heavily on us to come and solve conflicts that they themselves cannot.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

I have a lot of faith that the British army/navy would do well to defend their people but they are the only ones. Couldn't possibly count on the french or german. And yes I do think the rest of the world is too weak to defend themselves against people who have absolutely no regard for human life. Maybe the Italians, Spaniards, Swedish and maybe the Russians might jump in, but when is the last time they had to fight a war? The most action these people have seen is when they did rotations as UN representatives. The poor men and women were probably scared out of their minds, just hoping for it to be over and I don't blaim them. Whether or not we get involved, military action will break out in the middle east. Its easy to blame America because we have come out loudly against Iraq.

Our rotations as UN representatives, eh!!?

Yes, I did my rotation in late 1996 in fucking Croatia as part of Gebirgsjägerbataillon 223, 3. Kompanie, 2. Zug - 223 Mountain Bataillon, 3rd company, 2nd platoon... trying to keep the peace between Serbs, Croatians and Bosnias (no, there is no oil down there...)

During my "rotation", I helped to keep the peace down there... I saw dead babies, helped to disarm partisans, distributed food, tried to protect civilians, helped doing riot control... and even got shot at a couple of times.

Germany and France are just full of lazy, coward cunts, right?
How about you tell me that you liberated the French and the Germans from the Nazis? Did you?
My wife's grandfather was a US ranger during WWII- Sicily, Italy, Normandy, Germany... - and he is utterly and completely against Bush's war for oil and power. And he is a patriot, believe me.

I have a thumbnail sized hole in my right armpit from a piece of a mortar grenade that was randomly lobbed on at a town square we were patrolling, shortly before x-mas 1996.
A phosphor mortar shell to be more correct in other words, that thumb nail sized hole hasn't healed in 6 years. Hasn't healed yet and will probably never really heal.

I don't go around on the intarweb, stating that... but felt it was appropriate to mention, now that Kyra claims that neither the German or the French are taking any responsibilites...

That's my little reminder of what war is all about. But hey, I am German... we are little sissies, not interested in what's going on in the world. We are just some opportunist idiots, just like the French, no?

I am honestly getting sick and tired of your arrogant, imperialistic bullshit, Kyra. You don't have any fucking idea what you are talking about and for God's sake - just shut up now.
Do yourself a favor.

 

[thorwyntf]

But you really think you are being clever by bringing up our past mistakes?

Isn´t it your side, that´s bringing up the terms "old Europe" and the like? Ever thought about the sentence "mistakes are there to be made. Not to be repeated." Maybe we´ve learned a thing or two from our history.

And yes I do think the rest of the world is too weak to defend themselves against people who have absolutely no regard for human life

Then you are an ignorant muppet who has lost contact to reality.

Its easy to blame America because we have come out loudly against Iraq.

Nope. It´s easy to blame America because the US is acting as if they´re ruling this planet and WANT to attack Iraq at any costs, even against the United Nations, even against the veto´s of their allies, even against the veto´s of their own (oh so united) states.

We aren't the only ones that use oil. You guys use oil too

Right. But we´re not willing going to start a war to get oil while pretending that the true intention of this was to extinguish the evil from the world.

Then he would have the rest of the world paying twice or three times as much for that oil.

Ok, I see. Paying more money for oil is unacceptable. Lets kill the MoFos. They deserved it.

Ignoring him would be a big mistake.

Right. And the bandwith of possibilities between killing someone and ignoring someone is zero in your little word?

And btw, I never said I felt the countries of Europe were our slaves.

Then STOP TREATING us like slaves by threatening us with economic sancions if we dare to have an opinion of our own and don´t adopt yours blindly.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

*quietly applauds thorwyntf*

It's those stubbornly, nationalist oppionated people like Kyra creating the stereotypic picture of Americans the rest of the world has...

Don't forget the people in America against the war.
Respect to the people of Maine and Hawai for standing up against that madness.
Respect to the demonstrators all over the country.

 

[minstrel_kyra]

Once again let me clarify something that you have felt the need to twist.

I said that France and Germany would not get involved. I didn't say they were cowards (well I have my suspicions about the French, but that's besides the point.), ever.

I just truly feel that if the UK or the US were to get attacked by Iraq or Bin Laden's people that France and Germany would not help out. Not because they couldn't, but because they have made it clear who's side they are on. If France and Germany refuse to back their allies because they have financial reasons its ok. But if America wants to get involved for again finacial reasons its not?

I have a lot of respect for anyone who serves their country in a time of war, even Sick, believe it or not. But this abuse is uncalled for. I'm sorry you got shot at, and that you were injured, but you should be blaming those who attacked you, not me.

If you want to compare notes, Sick how about this? Both my grandfathers served in WWII. My one grandfather (who is still alive) was captured by the Germans and tortured for months before being rescued. I dare say you have never had to endure the torture he faced. Or how about this: my husband was on the front lines during the Gulf War, and this was before the Iraqis surrendered. This was when they were still fighting. Every day he saw oil fires (set by the Iraqis to poison the air and the US troops) and a few of his unit were fired upon. He was sick for a year after his time over there, at one point coughing up blood. He's still not quite ok but they are unable to find what is exactly wrong with him. I don't know if any of the soldiers in his camp were killed, he refuses to talk about it. Another unit that was working with him were sprayed with chemical weaponry. Again, I am not sure of what it was because he refuses to talk about it. He did manage to get away mostly unharmed so does that make him evil? Because he didn't give his life? Like I said, I don't approve of war and I don't want us to attack Iraq. If there was any other solution I would be in full support of it, demonstrating every day for that.

Right. And the bandwith of possibilities between killing someone and ignoring someone is zero in your little word?

So again I ask, since you guys seem to think that you have the answers, what is the solution? Instead of pointing fingers at us, come up with a reasonable solution to stop this madness and make everyone happy.

Do you guys truly think if we do nothing that everything will go away, that Saddam and Bin Laden will give up their vendettas against my country? That they will call off their suicide bombers? That they won't lay to waste the entire Washinton D.C. area (well that part wouldn't be so bad) and the entire Eastern seaboard? Yes their targets are port cities like NYC, Boston, etc. And no amount of plastic wrap and duct tape (yes I thought that was a stupid suggestion too) will keep the dirty bombs from killing hundreds or millions of innocent women and children (and yes chances are a bomb might hit Maine too).

I truly hope that you are right, but I honestly see no reason to believe this would happen. They will not be satisfied until America is totally annilated.

So for the record, (once again) I DON'T SUPPORT THIS WAR. I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS OR ANY OTHER WAR. I do however believe in fighting against those who would cause my country harm and none of you can say that these men do not mean my country harm.

And Sick, make up your mind ok? First you suggest I'm a coward for not responding and then when you dont' like what I have to say in response you tell me to go away? Sorry but you have made this your personal crusade against me, I won't go away quite so easily for defending my beliefs.

 

[calif101]

Re: a little long, so bear with me (pt.1)

Originally posted by minstrel_kyra

The only thing that stood between Baghdad and a mushroom cloud during the Gulf War was us. Israel had their planes in the air, ready to level Baghdad. We talked them down.

Just one little fact here......Yes Israel was ready to hit saddam,yes America did talk to them BUT and this is a big BUT the reason that they agreed not to attack was because they were told that special forces would go in and hunt the scuds down,when told this they asked who`s special forces and were US forces,they said send in the SAS and they will hold off.

So Israel had more faith in a british formation than an American one.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

What the hell does Saddam Hussein have to do with Bin Laden??
Where is the proof? Because Bin Laden claims that he is supporting the citizens of Iraq?
What if Bin Laden was giving North Korea a heads up?
Would that make them commie-mullahs?

Do you really believe that, quite obviously, fabricated „proof“ Powell showed the world?
The SIS was doing a copy and paste job from some essay a student wrote a couple of years ago?

American soldiers will die for a lie, Kyra.

And of course France and Germany would help the USA if they were attacked -.but that would be a different pair of shoes.
The veto against aiding Turkey in case of an Iraqi attack (and please, everyone knows that Saddam couldn’t m ount an offensive against the Turks even if he wanted to) was cast because the US government is clearly planning a war of aggression (German generals were tried in Nuremberg, where I live, by US attorneys for exactly that –„planning a war of aggression“), planning to invade Iraq no matter what – therefore Turkey might have to suffer from an Iraqi counter offensive/retaliation. Catch my drift?

No aggression – no retaliation.

I didn’t serve my country in war. I served the United Nations – to keep the peace in a war torn country.
And we succeeded.

I did not risk my life to invade a country because my government/chancellor felt the need to go on a crusade because Saddam tried to kill his dad...

So again I ask, since you guys seem to think that you have the answers, what is the solution? Instead of pointing fingers at us, come up with a reasonable solution to stop this madness and make everyone happy.

France and Germany are trying to come up with a peaceful solution... but that excludes conquering Iraq. So, of course, the US administration blocks and defies it.


On a sidenote – German military in WWII committed atrocities – but torturing allied (that sadly excludes Russian soldiers) prisoners of war didn’t take place in an organized fashion.
Just like G.I’s shooting and beating up German soldiers it happened vice versa – but to claim that German soldiers tortured American prisoners in an organized, authorized fashion is utterly untrue.

 

[calif101]

Originally posted by minstrel_kyra
Another unit that was working with him were sprayed with chemical weaponry

I`m sorry Kyra but this statment is totally untrue,I was there also along with friends and i can tell you NO repeat NO chemical weapons were used in the 91 gulf war.

I also have suffered since that time and it is more to do with the injections given to our forces.

 

[thorwyntf]

I just truly feel that if the UK or the US were to get attacked by Iraq or Bin Laden's people that France and Germany would not help out

That´s BS. Just because Germany and France don´t want to - now comes the important word, so read carefully - *attack* a country (call it preventive strike or whatever nice permutations of semantics fits you the most) doesn´t mean we´re not ready to - careful, another important word now - *defend* our alliance and our friends. It´s your flawed logic that days "you guys aren´t ready to help us with our aggressive plan and therefor you´re bad allies and prolly won´t help us if we´re under attack". We do have our role in the NATO and for gods sake we´re fullfilling this role quite fine.

...they have financial reasons its ok

Um.. financial reasons? What? Who?
We´re not sharing your position on how to solve a problem. Nothing more, nothing less.

But if America wants to get involved for again finacial reasons its not?

Well...decide what your focus is. One time you´re scared of islamistic acts of terrorism, then you want to save the suffering people in Iraq from a dictator, now the reasons are financial.

So again I ask, since you guys seem to think that you have the answers, what is the solution? Instead of pointing fingers at us, come up with a reasonable solution to stop this madness and make everyone happy.

I didn´t say that I have "the answers". I just said that your answer is wrong because it´s a "we can´t see a solution to the problem we´ve created ourselves so let´s kill it to be on the safe side" argument.
The fact that I can´t play the piano doesn´t mean I can´t hear when someone else is playing it badly. I`m not a politician and I`m not a diplomat, but I believe in common sense and I`m 100% sure, that the diplomatic possibilities have not reached their limits yet.

That they will call off their suicide bombers?

You´re making a big mistake here. Bin Laden isn´t Iraq and Saddam isn´t AlQaeda. The terrorists that you´re trying to search and destroy in Iraq are living in your country, undetected and waiting for instructions. AlQaeda is a world wide organisation that can´t be hit by attacking a random country. Even if there are connections between AlQaeda and Saddam, BinLaden and his network will remain intact even after a war. And even worse... a war against Iraq will prolly *increase* BinLadens power because his rethorical speeches about USA being the arch enemy of the islamistic world will find more and more open eyes amongst the people in the islamistic world. Listen to the BinLaden Video. Listen wo what he has to say. In his eyes, Saddam is a communist! Hell, BinLaden is *using* your governments stupidity to his advantage! And that´s how you hope to stop his bombing planes?

I DON'T SUPPORT THIS WAR. I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS OR ANY OTHER WAR.

Fine. So here´s where we´re d´accord. Apparently we´re just coming to different conclusions about the effect of this POV.

I do however believe in fighting against those who would cause my country harm and none of you can say that these men do not mean my country harm.

And again... *who* are you talking about? Who are "these men"? "These men" are an international organizaton consisiting of people from dozends of different countries, supported by dozends of countries, companies and organizations. You can´t fight terrorism with war. It never worked in the past, it never will work. We bombed Afghanistan, BinLaden is still alive and kicking, AlQaeda still active. Taliban are gone, people are free, good thing. But did we succeed in our attempt to destroy the terror network?
Not a millimeter!

 

[Lafala Arifel]

And still none of you have yet to give any other solutions. NONE OF YOU.

Probably the best point made in this thread so far.
Except there are other solutions, ones which exiles from Iraq (and most likely the citizens too, though they don't exactly have the luxury of freedom of speech to say so themselves) would much, much rather seen attempted first than a war on Iraq.

So where are the real anti war arguments? And I don't mean this "No blood for oil" stance - it's weak and doesn't address anything except that America might have ulterior motives. What a surprise! It wouldn't be the first time they would have something to gain from flexing their muscles. Nor is "war with hidden agendas" specific to the US

Opposition: You can't go to war on Iraq, we know your hidden agenda! You're only interested in the oil!
Bush: Y'mean.. we might gain something? Well paint me red an' hose me down! Better pack y'guns aways, boys! No war anymore!

Meanwhile, the dictatorship continues...
I'm not anti-American, nor am I pro-war. But I am for helping the real victims, and that's the people trapped inside Iraq. US and Britain say they want to end this regime, go in and extract Saddam and liberate Iraq. But is this really the best course of action to take? My conscience has a problem with the fact that Bush is not planning an extraction, but a bombing campaign. It will be the people of Iraq who suffer this.

Is it the lesser of two evils? If it worked.. quite possibly. But as with all wars, it's a very, very big if. For one, even if the war did have the 'desired' outcome (for want of a better word, I don't think that can ever really apply to war), it will certainly be a distraction to the real threat of the West: North Korea and the al-Qaida. Saddam's 'extraction' could be the right campaign, but at the wrong time. There are also a lot of side effects such a war could result in: carnage, terror, weapons of mass destruction (including their use against America), easier recruitment for the al-Qaida to name but a few.

At the end of the day, Iraq's main problem stems from its political system - yet there is no guarantee that war will result in democracy. In fact, some would say that an American war in Iraq is higly unlikely to spark the downfall of the autocractic regions.

There are other ways to help end Saddam's regime, these have been discussed in great length but I'm not going into them because 1) I am no middle eastern expert and would probably not do them justice 2) this post is long enough already
But the fact that Bush (edit: and Blair too, in his support of Bush) still consider war as their only option? Well.. it's a nice, convenient option, while they can hide it behind the weapons and Osama Bin Laden excuses.

Anyway, I finish this post with one of my favourite quotes on the subject (taken from Spectator):
‘It is arguable that the Bush clique has come up with the lamest, least convincing case for war ever heard. Never in the field of human conflict have so many had to listen to so much risible nonsense from so few.’

*grins, runs off before the flames are directed at her*

 

[Neural Network]

First of I must say this is the most serious thread I’ve ever seen in this forum, and possible the best. It’s very interesting to read your opinions, and to see that when we can discuss in a hard but controlled way. And I always enjoy hearing about first-person experiences.
But to bad I can’t find on something very useful to write. The whole point of my previous threads was to find an alternative to the war. But I ended up in thinking this is a “loose-loose”-situation, which I believe others also are thinking.
And Attrox believing that the government controls the media in the western world is so passé. The market controls the media, and the marked demands horror, action and sex. People want to be scared every time the read the newspaper.
To morrow I’ll read all Kyra’s links, let’s see what that will bring.