something to make the blood boil

[Thorwyn]

No they cant reproduce, they need to simulate the event and use some clever genetics to do it or do you regard this as natural?

They got all abilities to reproduce in a natural way if they want to. Let´s change the POV from gay to lesbian. If a lesbian woman agrees to "have sex" with a man, she can get pregnant. She doesn´t need to do anything. There´s no simulation of the event. She might not enjoy it, but that´s no requirement for a successful reproduction process (ask 50% of all women ). I`m pretty sure that we agree that they are able to reproduce. So is there a difference between a gay man and a lesbian woman?

But my point wasn´t the reproduction. My main point was the fact that the human race doesn´t have sex only for the purpose of reproduction. That´s one side effect of it, but by far not the main aspect. That´s why I think that those "against the nature" arguments are not valid.

 

[tris-]

yeah, you did.

I think defect is the wrong word to be using about such an emotive subject.

i use it because my english skills are not that top notch, i couldnt think of a more suitable word. sorry

 

[Kagato]

I don't see anything wrong with what he is doing to be honest.

He has set something up to try and help gay people to be straight if they choose to accept his help.

He is not 'forcing' them to become straight, he is offering them a choice and I presume the only people that will accept this help are people that want to try and live a lifestyle as a normal straight person.

That is right, 'normal', because no matter what anyone says, being gay is not 'normal' or 'natural', key words that are often thrown around without real understanding in 'gay' arguements. Being gay is perfectly fine, it should be accepted by the community as an alternative lifestyle.
But it is not natural, it is the complete opposit of natural, life itself proves it is not natural, it is not possible to evolve, breed or follow any basic rules of nature as 'gay', it is a perfectly fine choice for adults but it is NOT 'natural'.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not anti-gay in the slightest, I have friends that are either bi or gay and I work with some people that are openly gay every day. All i'm saying is that it is wrong for some people to claim it is normal or natural when it's not, it is an alternative choice to the normal way of nature and it should be accepted as such, but not encouraged.

 

[Laddey]

Obviously he wasnt a shirt lifter to begin with, he must of been Bisexual. You cant just decide one day you are no longer a homo. Either that or he is living a lie.

I thought thats what you did? <3

 

[noblok]

I really would like to know what homosexuality is if not natural, cultural?

 

[Kagato]

I really would like to know what homosexuality is if not natural, cultural?

It's an alternative lifestyle, a choice like any other.

If it was 'natural', we wouldn't be the only species in the world that practises it. If it was 'natural' it would be possible to reproduce through gay sex. If it was 'natural', there wouldn't even be a need for different genders.

I'm not saying it's wrong, it's perfectly fine and acceptable to me for people that want to indulge in gay sex to do so behind closed doors like any other couple. But they shouldn't go around trying to tell other people, specially young impressionable kids, that it is normal or natural. It's not, its an alternative to natural.

 

[noblok]

Please define 'natural'. I'm unsure as to why it wouldn't be natural, just because humans are the only species that exhibit such behaviour.

Edit: I also think quite a few would disagree about it being a 'choice'.

 

[tris-]

It's an alternative lifestyle, a choice like any other.

if its a choice then why do gay people insist the following things -

they were born like that

they cant help but feel that way

they only feel them selves if they let it be known they are gay

i dont think anyone is saying homosexuality is natural, nor is anyone saying it is a choice.
they come 'out of the closet' (such a shit term, but the bummers love it)

they could not possibly be straight

well i could go on. if it was a choice, they could deny the above things. fact is, they dont. the way they say it is like they dont have a choice BUT to be gay.

for lack of a better a word (sorry, my english skillz sux ) people are basically saying its a 'defect'. i.e. something that should not happen, but it has. although, we dont give a fuck if someone likes penis, thats just the way modern life goes

 

[Kagato]

Of cause they wont say it's a choice, by saying they were born like that and had no choice they can instantly take away any responsibility for how they are and don't have to face any difficult questions in their own heads let alone by anyone else.
Most people go through a semi bi-curious stage as they are growing up, but most people grow out of it, some don't, some choose to follow it up further.

I'm sure theres many many different reasons for choosing to be gay, and it's a sad fact that many of the times it's due to some form of abuse as a child, other times it might just be curiosity. But I cannot accept that anyone is simply 'born gay', no one is pre-destined to be anything, we begin with a clean slate. You can argue that something effected you growing up, you can argue that you just spent to long staring at He-Man and his sword as a kid, but it's still a choice.

 

[dub]

would you say you choose to speak english or that it is your native tongue ?

 

[noblok]

You seem to be saying that gay people themselves don't know why they choose to be gay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpretted "[They call it a choice so they] don't have to face any difficult questions in their own heads". Can you really call something a choice if you don't know why you choose it? Isn't that an inclination rather than a choice?

 

[Chronictank]

You seem to be saying that gay people themselves don't know why they choose to be gay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpretted "[They call it a choice so they] don't have to face any difficult questions in their own heads". Can you really call something a choice if you don't know why you choose it? Isn't that an inclination rather than a choice?

if it is a choice then my whole argument is invalid as it is just the same as choosing a religion.

But last i heard they had found a gene that made them gay

Think Kagato explained it better than i did

 

[noblok]

if it is a choice then my whole argument is invalid as it is just the same as choosing a religion.

But last i heard they had found a gene that made them gay

Think Kagato explained it better than i did

Kagato called it a choice though?

It's an alternative lifestyle, a choice like any other.
[...]
I cannot accept that anyone is simply 'born gay'
[...]
it is an alternative choice to the normal way of nature

 

[Chronictank]

Kagato called it a choice though?

nono,
this bit

I'm not saying it's wrong, it's perfectly fine and acceptable to me for people that want to indulge in gay sex to do so behind closed doors like any other couple. But they shouldn't go around trying to tell other people, specially young impressionable kids, that it is normal or natural. It's not, its an alternative to natural.

 

[Thorwyn]

By the way... the "it´sexclusively a human phenomenon" theory seems to be invalid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

 

[Chronictank]

By the way... the "it´sexclusively a human phenomenon" theory seems to be invalid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

i didnt know anyone claimed it was

 

[noblok]

OK, I see. Just had to clear that up before continuing the discussion as there seems to be two lines of argumentation . Kagato's arguing that it is a choice for an unnatural way of life and you (and others) argue that it's unnatural, but caused by natural factors. Is this correct?

(and Kagato claimed homosexuality was an exclusively human phenomenon, post #96: "If it was 'natural', we wouldn't be the only species in the world that practises it.")

 

[Kagato]

By the way... the "it´sexclusively a human phenomenon" theory seems to be invalid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

Animals don't act 'gay' because of their sexualty, they do it because they do not realise the other animal is not compatible, it's the same reason why a dog goes around humping your leg, football or the fluffy cushion on the sofa.
The dog, or any other animal has strong instincts telling it it needs to go and mate urgently and it gets confused with no partner nearby. You cannot seriously suggest another animal is honestly gay like some humans are.
Animals breed to reproduce, not for pleasure, (with the exception of humans and dolphins, strange but true).

 

[Thorwyn]

...did you actually take a look at the article?

 

[noblok]

To pick up the argument with Chronic again: you claim homosexuality is a defect, because homosexual animals cannot reproduce, however they can. As Thorwyn said: they do not even need technology in order to do so. All that's needed is sex with someone they do not feel attracted to, e.g. the black swans in the article Thorwyn posted. This would imply that homosexuality is neither a defect nor unnatural (it is natural in the way all mutations are). You could consider it not normal though, in the sense most animals aren't gay. However, normality is a rather vague concept, so it's not a term I like to use, especially because of the link normal-natural-right.

 

[Huntingtons]

Animals don't act 'gay' because of their sexualty, they do it because they do not realise the other animal is not compatible, it's the same reason why a dog goes around humping your leg, football or the fluffy cushion on the sofa.
The dog, or any other animal has strong instincts telling it it needs to go and mate urgently and it gets confused with no partner nearby. You cannot seriously suggest another animal is honestly gay like some humans are.
Animals breed to reproduce, not for pleasure, (with the exception of humans and dolphins, strange but true).

yeah i suppose rubbing your minge is perfectly a natural reproduction act

@ noblok

just because they have sex with eachother doesnt make them homosexual. they have to only have sex with a male partner in order for them to be gay, or only find them attractive and in most cases this isnt valid which makes them bi sexual at the closest

 

[noblok]

just because they have sex with eachother doesnt make them homosexual. they have to only have sex with a male partner in order for them to be gay, or only find them attractive and in most cases this isnt valid which makes them bi sexual at the closest

I used the term 'animals' because of the article Thorwyn posted. The black swan example seemed like sex without affection/attraction with the sole purpose of reproduction. However, I'll admit that it's rather hard to find out what an animal feels, so you can replace the term with 'humans' if you like.

 

[haarewin]

Of cause they wont say it's a choice, by saying they were born like that and had no choice they can instantly take away any responsibility for how they are and don't have to face any difficult questions in their own heads let alone by anyone else.
Most people go through a semi bi-curious stage as they are growing up, but most people grow out of it, some don't, some choose to follow it up further.

I'm sure theres many many different reasons for choosing to be gay, and it's a sad fact that many of the times it's due to some form of abuse as a child, other times it might just be curiosity. But I cannot accept that anyone is simply 'born gay', no one is pre-destined to be anything, we begin with a clean slate. You can argue that something effected you growing up, you can argue that you just spent to long staring at He-Man and his sword as a kid, but it's still a choice.

i'm reading the above as "everyone who is gay was molested as a child". that's not the case.

tell me kagato, why did you "choose" heterosexuality instead of homosexuality?

 

[Kagato]

i'm reading the above as "everyone who is gay was molested as a child". that's not the case.

tell me kagato, why did you "choose" heterosexuality instead of homosexuality?

I did not need to "choose" heterosexuality, as heterosexuality is perfectly normal and how we are designed to reproduce.

The choice only comes when you decide to stray from whats normal and natural.

Oh and as for the wise ass remarks, try reading what I actually said, I never said 'all gays were abused', I said that sadly many were, which you can read for yourself if you care to search for the research on the net.

 

[Infanity]

Why dont you want to insult religious people?

They deserve it. Lets face it, its just fucking stupid :C

Narrow minded piece of shit ;]

 

[Ati]

Narrow minded piece of shit ;]

aye Jamie, because your a good christian boy :touch:

 

[tris-]

Oh and as for the wise ass remarks, try reading what I actually said, I never said 'all gays were abused', I said that sadly many were, which you can read for yourself if you care to search for the research on the net.

well so are/were many straight people, im not sure what it has to do with anything.

 

[dub]

if it is a choice then my whole argument is invalid as it is just the same as choosing a religion.

But last i heard they had found a gene that made them gay

Think Kagato explained it better than i did

consensus atm is that there doesnt exist a "gay-gene"

as for kagato´s choice theory i dunno what to say really , do english people choose to speak english or is it their native language ?

 

[[NO]Subedai]

culture is all

The culture you are brought up in will influence all of your opinions about culture

Something is only right or wrong from the perception of the culture you are brought up in, nothing more

 

[kirennia]

culture is all

The culture you are brought up in will influence all of your opinions about culture

If you truly beleive as I think it sounds and we are merely a product of our environment, there is no control over our lives. I mean saying culture influences ALL opinions of culture says different factors such as a soul, our free will, thoughts etc have no baring on anything really otherwise they would indirectly change our views on everything, including culture choices.

With this thought in mind, no-one has a baring over any action they take whatsoever. In fact, think I'll make a thread about this tomorrow instead of highjacking