Some things just ain't right!

M

Mr.Monkey

Guest
Never underestimate the difficulty of translating ancient scripts into modern society.

Never underestimate the influence of the "priests" in any given religion to change the meanings of teachings (see christianity in the UK, used to be taught in latin. The common folk didn't speak/read latin, allowing the priests to manipulate those they were teaching.

Never understimate the power of the community to make people conform to what is "acceptable" no matter how daft it may seem (see UK Victorians covering table legs with skirts, as they were shameful. Indeed, see me wearing a tie!)

Never underestimate how wrong our values may seem to other communitys.

Never understimate the damage rapid change to community values can do to society.

Never believe that religions are one body (look at christianity. God knows how many sects/versions there are(pun intended)).


History is littered with values that encourage people to kill/be killed. The japanese cultural willingness to commit suicide for example.

And remeber, we live in a christian society (be you christian or not), living by rule initally put in place in the bible. The bible which says killing is wrong.
Contemplate what sort of society we would live in if "god" had decreed that murder was acceptable for some reasons. We would all believe it was "right", and "just".


And calling people stupid rarely develops a dicsussion well!
 
T

throdgrain

Guest
Never underestimate that murdering your children for disagreeing with you is wrong, no matter what religon it is , or however you dress it up. In fact, its not just wrong, its appalling :/
 
U

Uncle Sick(tm)

Guest
They should give him the chinese lead diet... after giving him a bath in a tub filled with pig fat.

Unclean muslims... paradise? Njet...

Killing your child? Your own child? Beyond disgusting...
 
M

Mr.Monkey

Guest
Originally posted by throdgrain
Never underestimate that murdering your children for disagreeing with you is wrong, no matter what religon it is , or however you dress it up. In fact, its not just wrong, its appalling :/
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It is wrong to you (and me), because of the values we have been bought up with. That is to respect the value of (human) life.

Right and wrong are relative, no matter how henious the crime.

In some parts of china it was acceptable to "let your child die" if it was born out of wedlock. In the USA it it "right" to kill a man for murdering someone else.

But think how strongly that man must have felt in order to kill his own child? I know I would never be able to.
 
D

doh_boy

Guest
From what I've read (and been told) islam and chrisitianity aren't that different. Its just that for years culture and religion have been so close that its hard to tell the difference sometimes. This wasn't done for religious reasons it was done for cultural reasons (the article says 'honour killing'). I don't know much about islam as a religion but what I have seen is that its almost the same as mine (RC) also add to that the fact that Jesus is a prophet for islam.

You can understand his reasons but not sympathise with them, asking to be killed is , imho, his way of avoiding the guilt he feels. He problably felt that 'he had no other choice'. It's a sad state of affairs really but then death always is.
 
W

WPKenny

Guest
I think most things have already been said here but reading some of the posts it reminds me of the HSBC adverts where they show that the same thing in different countries has vastly different implications and meanings.
 
T

Tom

Guest
Maybe he was just a nutter. Its hard to talk about religious beliefs and cultural values if he was.
 
X

xane

Guest
Originally posted by Mr.Monkey
The bible which says killing is wrong.
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New Testament perhaps, but people are happy to quote Old Testament rulings to suit them, pick and choose and neatly avoid the "killing" bits.

For example, Levaticus is quite clear that adultery, incest, homosexuality and beastiality are wrong, but goes on to qualify such crimes are punished by death.
 
X

xane

Guest
Originally posted by doh_boy
also add to that the fact that Jesus is a prophet for islam.
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Correct, but in Islam he is not the "son of God", wherein lies the disparity.
 
C

Clowneh!

Guest
Originally posted by Mr.Monkey
It is wrong to you (and me), because of the values we have been bought up with. That is to respect the value of (human) life.

Right and wrong are relative, no matter how henious the crime.

In some parts of china it was acceptable to "let your child die" if it was born out of wedlock. In the USA it it "right" to kill a man for murdering someone else.

But think how strongly that man must have felt in order to kill his own child? I know I would never be able to.
Click to expand...
That's sort of what I wanted to say :)
 
M

mank

Guest
Originally posted by Tom
I just thought that was a bit of a daft thing to say, you're drawing conclusions from stereotypes.
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Fair enough, I didn't intend to generalise and stereotype anyone though. I just found it all rather crazy and over the top.
 
T

throdgrain

Guest
Originally posted by Clowneh!
That's sort of what I wanted to say :)
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Yeah, and I disagree. It is wrong , full stop. Just to play the "its another culture " card is simply not enough.
PARTICULARLY not in this country. If you come here you must abide by our standards, not just our National Health / Welfare System / Freedom of speech.
But I would (and do) feel the same about such a thing when it happens in another country.

Btw Im not particularly having a go at you here clowneh :)
 
T

Trem

Guest
Originally posted by throdgrain
Yeah, and I disagree. It is wrong , full stop. Just to play the "its another culture " card is simply not enough.
PARTICULARLY not in this country. If you come here you must abide by our standards, not just our National Health / Welfare System / Freedom of speech.
But I would (and do) feel the same about such a thing when it happens in another country.

Btw Im not particularly having a go at you here clowneh :)
Click to expand...

Post of the day.
 
M

Mr.Monkey

Guest
Originally posted by throdgrain
Yeah, and I disagree. It is wrong , full stop. Just to play the "its another culture " card is simply not enough.
PARTICULARLY not in this country. If you come here you must abide by our standards, not just our National Health / Welfare System / Freedom of speech.
But I would (and do) feel the same about such a thing when it happens in another country.

Btw Im not particularly having a go at you here clowneh :)
Click to expand...

I believe you are answering a different question to me.
My arguement was not a defence (nor would it be in a court of law), but a philosphical discussion.
I am not playing any card at all, rather opening up the axioms of your statement to criticism.

Personally, I believe in the letter of the law. The courts decision to send him to prison was the correct one. It is against the law to murder.
I also believe that if you are of a foreign culture, you have to adapt to the culture in the country you move to. This applies to both immigrants to the UK, and us moving to other countries.

For example, some of you will smoke weed which is socially acceptable in some social circles in the UK. However, if you take enough to singapore, you will get the death sentance. I believe that is their right, and their way with dealing with what they think is wrong.

Just because you believe that something is wrong, does not make it so universally. For such an attitude a word exists: totalitarianism

to·tal·i·tar·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (t-tl-târ-n)
adj.
Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
 
C

Clowneh!

Guest
I'm not defending it either. It aint right... not to me, not to millions of others. But clearly it's right to some people in their culture and society.
 
T

throdgrain

Guest
Originally posted by Mr.Monkey

Just because you believe that something is wrong, does not make it so universally.
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So, I believe that murdering your daughter because she wouldnt live her life as you told her is wrong. I assume you do too.
So why are you arguing about it ?
Or do you think that if it were legal in say, Iraq, you would condone such behaviour ?
 
L

~Lazarus~

Guest
A father murdering his own daughter!

Totally out of order.

Killing anyone is wrong.

Whether he is Islamic, Catholic, Protestant or Shaolin monk!

The fact that he committed the offence here is the worst.

imo, Britain is WAYYY to lenient on incomers from other countries.

We pamper to their every needs. How many times have you seen the fact that Islamic children who go to school, do not need to abide by the dress codes. They can wear their "traditional" clothing. However, if someone from Britain did the same, they would be in trouble with the school.

My opinion, if you choose to live in this country (whether by choice or by Asylum) then you live to the laws of the country.

Can you imagine someone from Scotland going to Saudi and getting pissed every night, simply because thats wot they did "back home"

Rant over.
 
J

Jonaldo

Guest
Sounds like I could go to Iraq, murder a few children I might think are swaying from the rigid beliefs of yesteryear and come home with a clean conscience.
 
F

Flamin_Squirrel

Guest
If this happened in a predominantly islam country (family shame thoughout the community etc), it might be understandable (although still completely unacceptable). But to bring your children up in the west, enjoying its privilages, and not being able to accept that they might embrace is a supreme act of selfishness.

If he couldnt cope with that posibility he should had remained in Iraq, where the odds are she would have grown up as the muslim he wanted.
 
L

L_Plates

Guest
Sick how some people could even think of killing anyone let alone there own daughter :/
 
J

Jonaldo

Guest
Basically if our country and all the welfare and benefits he was claiming are good enough for him, then our laws and rules should be good enough for him.
 
M

Mr.Monkey

Guest
Originally posted by throdgrain
Or do you think that if it were legal in say, Iraq, you would condone such behaviour ?
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I already answered that.



And BTW Mr.Yones did get life. Not exactly like he got away with it, is it? Or was let of leniently, seeing as it's the maximum penalty the court could give.
 
T

throdgrain

Guest
Sorry Ive looked through your posts on this thread and cant see where you have answered that. Perhaps you could help me out and quote yourself on this one ? Cheers .
I would like to quote you though if I may;

"I am not playing any card at all, rather opening up the axioms of your statement to criticism."

Im sorry , that is just such a funny sentence. :D
 
M

Mr.Monkey

Guest
Originally posted by Mr.Monkey
It is wrong to you (and me), because of the values we have been bought up with. That is to respect the value of (human) life.
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You are welcome.

And I live to amuse.

ax·i·om ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ks-m)
n.
1 A self-evident or universally recognized truth; a maxim: “It is an economic axiom as old as the hills that goods and services can be paid for only with goods and services” (Albert Jay Nock).
2 An established rule, principle, or law.
3 A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate.



Basically a posh was of saying "J00 @r3 WRONG MOFO. STFU n00bi l00s@, I |2 l337 ur PWND" :D
 
M

Munkey-

Guest
Unfortunatly its not only Islam that produces this sort of "sick" thinking. Hell, i'd put america down on the list as well.
 
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