So I go to scotland for a week

[Marc]

With no access to the outside world, a remote part in the highlands, with no phone coverage etc. What am I greated with when I finally get a phone signal on the 10 hour drive back?

BBC NEWS | England | Lancashire | Man in court over takeaway death

Mate of mine murdered. Now dont get me wrong, I am upset, but is it wrong to feel sorry for the lad on the murder charge? Its basically a fight gone wrong and the lad on the murder charge is a lovely lad, A* A Level student who was going to uni to become a doctor, now his life is ruined because of a drunken brawl. I also dont see how it can be a murder charge, given that it has been confirmed by my mates in attendence at the time that it was just a drunken brawl?

 

[Urgluf]

sorry to hear that man. :/

 

[Fafnir]

Well he ended up in a brawl and killed someone, in my eyes it still murder unless. Dont you have different degrees of murder, with intent, without intent etc?

Well killing someone during a drunken brawl it is still murder. Dunno if you call it manslaughter as we do in sweden, if its murder without intent. Or if its 1st degree, 2nd degree. But none the less its hard to comment without seeing the police report. Doubt one gets charged with murder just for the hell of it.

But why did it go so far so the guy died. I've seen 100's of barfights in my line of work, none ended with a death.

 

[Marc]

Well he ended up in a brawl and killed someone, in my eyes it still murder unless. Dont you have different degrees of murder, with intent, without intent etc?

Well killing someone during a drunken brawl it is still murder. Dunno if you call it manslaughter as we do in sweden, if its murder without intent. Or if its 1st degree, 2nd degree. But none the less its hard to comment without seeing the police report. Doubt one gets charged with murder just for the hell of it.

But why did it go so far so the guy died. I've seen 100's of barfights in my line of work, none ended with a death.

Exactly, in the UK, I am sure there has to be intent etc. My mates, assure me it was just a drunken brawl. This is how a number of people described it.

Micheal (the guy being done for murder) assaulted Gerry. Was on top of him, punching him. The 17 year old girl ran over and booted Gerry in the head. Gerry managed to get on top of micheal and starting absolutely pasting him. THis is the situation when my friends arrived from the kebab shop down the road. They pulled Gerry off him, for fear of Gerry doing damage to this lad!. Both parties go their seperate ways. Gerry was fine at this point. He wanted to go home to his wife, so my mates left him in La Luna (the kebab shop) whilst he got his food. Next thing hes dead.

WHilst its only natural I want someone punsihed, this Micheal is a lovely lad. I have known his family for years. I would hate to see 2 families ruined, over such a stupid thing.

THis kind of thing could happen to anyone, so just be careful.

 

[Hawkwind]

I thought a muder charge had to be premeditated or extremely violent. To be honest you won't know the final charges until CPS decide what will stick in court.

Still, fighting until someone is unconcious or dead is pretty serious and hardly the actions of someone training to save lives rather than take em. Obviously we don't know the full circumstances of the fight and what led up to it. Any loss of life needs to be treated extremely seriously.

 

[Litmus]

Sounds like it was that 17 year old girl that prolly did the damage, not your mate.

 

[Mey]

I'm not 100% sure of the injuries caused in the fight to your friend other than he is now dead so I can't say what the initial crime for M would be, however, the fact that your mate died it can be reasonably infered that this was a result of the attack by M & the 17 year old. I'm not 100% sure of the reason* for it (not got my criminal law book to hand) but I reckon the murder charge will stand, and there might be a GBH thrown in to.

*When Sophie (the goth girl that was kicked to death not to long ago) trial went to court the perpatrators of that crime were charged with murder too. Which is a similar case, in that they didn't mean to kill her but it was a result of their assualt on her.

[edit: apparently, alot of assualts which lead to death are charged with murder at first but then reduced to manslaughter.]

Finally, sorry to hear, my deepest sympathies to his family.

 

[Laddey]

Sorry to hear that Marc mate.


Hows life you slug?

 

[Zenith.UK]

The way the criminal systems works in the UK is that any homicide is classed as murder when charges are first brought. During preliminary research for the case, the CPS will decide whether to proceed as murder or manslaughter depending on the evidence and witnesses to hand.

Manslaughter is causing the death of another person involuntarily ie. an accident or contributing to the death in some way indirectly.

Murder is causing the death of another person deliberately OR involuntarily when the defendant has contributed DIRECTLY to the cause of death. That's why this case is proceeding as murder because while the defendant may not have meant to kill the victim, he still directly contributed to the victim's death by attacking him.

I'm not making judgements about who was right or wrong as I don't know all the facts. I am saying in a straightforward way how I understand charges relating to murder operate in the UK.


As for the OP, I really feel sorry for you that you lost your friend suddenly. The best that anyone can hope for is to be remembered when they're gone, so while Gerard's friends and family remember him, that's one of the best ways to honour him. I've lost friends suddenly and I make a point of remembering the good times we shared and not dwelling on the cause of their death.

Finally it isn't wrong to feel sorry for Michael as he has thrown away his chance for a good life. On the other hand, he brought it upon himself and one of the things I firmly believe in is being responsible for your own actions.

 

[Marc]

Sorry to hear that Marc mate.


Hows life you slug?

Except for the obvious, not bad. Scotland was a right blast! Hows your xmas been mate?

 

[Marc]

The way the criminal systems works in the UK is that any homicide is classed as murder when charges are first brought. During preliminary research for the case, the CPS will decide whether to proceed as murder or manslaughter depending on the evidence and witnesses to hand.

Manslaughter is causing the death of another person involuntarily ie. an accident or contributing to the death in some way indirectly.

Murder is causing the death of another person deliberately OR involuntarily when the defendant has contributed DIRECTLY to the cause of death. That's why this case is proceeding as murder because while the defendant may not have meant to kill the victim, he still directly contributed to the victim's death by attacking him.

I'm not making judgements about who was right or wrong as I don't know all the facts. I am saying in a straightforward way how I understand charges relating to murder operate in the UK.


As for the OP, I really feel sorry for you that you lost your friend suddenly. The best that anyone can hope for is to be remembered when they're gone, so while Gerard's friends and family remember him, that's one of the best ways to honour him. I've lost friends suddenly and I make a point of remembering the good times we shared and not dwelling on the cause of their death.

Finally it isn't wrong to feel sorry for Michael as he has thrown away his chance for a good life. On the other hand, he brought it upon himself and one of the things I firmly believe in is being responsible for your own actions.

Thankyou Zenith

 

[Billargh]

The fact he's a 'lovely lad' and it was just a 'drunken brawl' really doesn't excuse the fact he has killed someone Marc.

 

[Aoami]

Really sorry to hear about your mate.

I've made my stance on fighting clear in the past, so i feel no sympathy for the guy being charged.

 

[Marc]

The fact he's a 'lovely lad' and it was just a 'drunken brawl' really doesn't excuse the fact he has killed someone Marc.

Where have I said that?

Maybe you got confused with me questioning the murder charge. I didnt mean he shouldnt get punished, I just wasnt sure how it could be classed as murder thats all. But people have answered my question now anyway.

 

[- English -]

im sure i posted a paragraph or something but being ill i think i may have wrote it and not pressed send qq

 

[Billargh]

Where have I said that?

Maybe you got confused with me questioning the murder charge. I didnt mean he shouldnt get punished, I just wasnt sure how it could be classed as murder thats all. But people have answered my question now anyway.

My bad, must have read it wrong.

 

[soze]

(1) First degree murder (mandatory life penalty)
(a) Killing intentionally.
(b) Killing where there was an intention to do serious injury, coupled with an awareness of a serious risk of causing death.

(2) Second degree murder (discretionary life maximum penalty)
(a) Killing where the offender intended to do serious injury.
(b) Killing where the offender intended to cause some injury or a fear or risk of injury, and was aware of a serious risk of causing death.
(c) Killing in which there is a partial defence to what would otherwise be first degree murder.

(3) Manslaughter (discretionary life maximum penalty)
(a) Killing through gross negligence as to a risk of causing death.
(b) Killing through a criminal act:
(i) intended to cause injury; or
(ii) where there was an awareness that the act involved a serious risk of causing injury.
(c) Participating in a joint criminal venture in the course of which another participant commits first or second degree murder, in circumstances where it should have been obvious that first or second degree murder might be ommitted by another participant.

I found this in a PDF it seems it could be considered 2nd Degree Murder because of the head kick maybe?

 

[Huntingtons]

well... dont they have to prove that he did the dmg that caused his death?
the guy was getting his ass kicked so, kinda hard to kill someone when you're beneath