Should /assist be removed from DAoC (RvR)?

[Jenk]

Hi all,

I haven't made this a poll as I would like to see a discussion, not just a hundred votes

Before I get to it, I do appreciate there is still a lot of skill involved in FG pvp'ing, and especially when fighting Zergs.

However, one thing occured to me when I recently started getting involved with 'real' groups looking for 8v8's in Agramon etc.. I was on my fire wiz toon and so, as any fire wiz player can tell you, all I can do is deal damage.

Why is that relevant? Well.. my task involved running with group (I don't do /stick), waiting for the main tank or another damage dealer to say "assist", then clicking the /assist macro button and pressing 1 repeatedly, then rinse repeat until all dead.

The other tanks did similar.. /assist - /stick - /attack

That to me, that is.. for lack of a better word in my vocabulary.. lame.

If the /assist macro was removed, it would add that little bit of extra "need to find the same target" skill, and perhaps mix things up when it comes to rvr, and seperate the men/women from the boys/girls

Whaddya think?

Apologies if this is a done and dusted topic, and no.. I am not whining.

 

[Vell]

I think that would make it all much more interesting, much more challenging, and for me, as a healer, I would love it. I might actually get a few heals off before the assist chain kills everyone

 

[Overdriven]

Well, can see the advantages and disadvantages.

Wouldn't mind it being removed, though - most skilled players can tell a player by what they wear/rank ;o

 

[Lomme]

would be nice if it got removed, yeah

 

[Jenk]

Well, can see the advantages and disadvantages.

Wouldn't mind it being removed, though - most skilled players can tell a player by what they wear/rank ;o

Please expand on the advantages/disadvantages

Basically Vell hit the nail on the head, I'm sure everyone prefers a lengthy battle to a 10-20second /assist chaining, from both view points.. as the victim it's obviously boring, and as the attacker it was a little boring for me, I much prefer the lengthy battles

 

[Thorwyn]

On the other hand, removing /assist would even increase the advantage of voicecom users (i.e. decrease the chances for PUGs w/o voicecom).

 

[Lethul]

most good assist trains targets with mouse (same target, be close to eachother) i reckon since /assist has a small delay

 

[Gamah]

I think it should be removed, would require more attention paying by assit trains and weed out the weak power assiters.

 

[Darzil]

I think the ADVANTAGES to /assist should be removed - ie ganging up on one person should have diminishing returns. If this were the case, you'd have multiple 1vs1 and 2vs1 fights as part of an 8vs8, making for a longer and more interesting fight, as the damage dealers spread the damage around.

As people have been pointing out, it'll give voice coms users a further advantage over those without if /assist was simply removed.

Darzil

 

[Rediknight]

The biggest problem i could see from this is with casters - they require distance to be of any use (most of them) and targetting a single person inside a 2FG melee isn't easy from that distance.

Maybe remove the /assist command and have it as a RA? A shield tank can guard and in return, his ward is able to /assist him/her?

Or have it as a "duo" effect - two archers for example working together assisting each other is devestating, so maybe have it as a sort of ability that, like guard and protect, can only be applied to another group member? /shrug

i dunno, then again i wondered how far i could let my tongue get pulled down the hoover tube before it hurt and ended up in A&E for a couple of hours

I wouldn't listen to me, tbh...

 

[Takhasis]

...
i dunno, then again i wondered how far i could let my tongue get pulled down the hoover tube before it hurt and ended up in A&E for a couple of hours

I wouldn't listen to me, tbh...

u just made me spray coffee on my keyboard + monitor at work

but yeh remove /assist....

 

[Demon2k3]

Yes in RvR i agree assist can afford to be removed. In PvE it's an great toon still. If it was to be removed the battles would probably become longer in RvR. it ain't fun to get assist nuked to death on an paladin tbh.

 

[Phoebee-v-]

From support POV I agree that assist should be removed.

 

[Svartmetall]

Yes to removing /assist. It's ridiculous when you face caster /assist groups, anything they look at is vaporised in 0.003 seconds from long range; the game would be much better off without it.

 

[Void959]

It should not imo, as those who generally use voice-comms (myself included) would still be able to assist relatively easily, but it would be slower/harder for PUGs etc to manage, thus further increasing the divide between casual and regular players.

 

[Mistlin]

so with the recent polls in mind...what if DAoC had it's own inbuilt voice com system...it's still more hectic and challenging on TS with peeps yelling "the sorc...the SORC...NOT THAT ONE.....the one with freaking big ML9 pet u noob"

Well, that's what is normally yelled at me anyway....yes to the removal /assist in RvR!

 

[Flimgoblin]

crippling the interface isn't the way to go

daoc shouldn't be about twitch reflexes any more than it already is.

However, I kinda like that idea of reducing the effect of multiple attackers - e.g. every person after the first gets a 20% damage reduction.

Probably cause a massive amount of lag working this out.

 

[Flimgoblin]

so with the recent polls in mind...what if DAoC had it's own inbuilt voice com system...it's still more hectic and challenging on TS with peeps yelling "the sorc...the SORC...NOT THAT ONE.....the one with freaking big ML9 pet u noob"

Well, that's what is normally yelled at me anyway....yes to the removal /assist in RvR!

and if you're deaf?

 

[GReaper]

It's not the solution to the problem, as stated in other posts the skilled players will end up manually assisting (if they don't already) whilst other players will end up bashing random targets.

My opinion is that the problem is increased damage over DAoC history. I used to be able to heal quite effectively on my Friar with a few baseline heals before going into combat - it's impossible to outheal as a secondary healer these days. The original game never had debuffs for casters, level 50 lifetaps, resist pierce, various ToA bonuses to increase damage (speed and damage increases), melee debuff procs, melee debuff artifact abilities, realm ability damage increases, etc. I could keep going on and on.

Try and think of alternative ideas to reduce damage in RvR instead. The focus absorb shield which the primary buffing classes get is the sort of thing which needs to be implemented, although preferably at lower specs - it's a useless spell because no sane player is able to spec for it without gimping themselves.

Mythic needs to add more group only abilities which reduce damage, instead of a general nerf to all damage on all classes. That way it won't affect stealthers and players who solo if the ability only affects other players in the group.

 

[Thorwyn]

However, I kinda like that idea of reducing the effect of multiple attackers - e.g. every person after the first gets a 20% damage reduction.

It´s possible to circumvent the damage reduction by /assisting, then hitting ESC and re-targetting manually. If you´re a lazy tank, the only difference to the current system is two clicks and a little bit of attention and we´re in the twitch reflex area again.

And yes, it would probably create lots of lag due to "remembering" the source of damage and the action of the source before the damage was dealt.

My opinion is that the problem is increased damage over DAoC history

Agree!

 

[Flimgoblin]

It´s possible to circumvent the damage reduction by /assisting, then hitting ESC and re-targetting manually.

You misunderstood me - I have no problems with /assist - however the problem people seem to have with /assist is 5 people ganging up on 1 = instakills, this would reduce damage no matter whether they were assisting or not.

One option is just the "number of attackers" code that's already there for pve - however that would mean pets and "call of a thousand storms" actually reduce the damage done to someone mind you... as would someone randomly aoeing.

probably quite a lag-inducing wotsit anyway.

Maybe a personal damage reduction thing, if you take 600 damage within 2 seconds you get 20% resistance for the next 2 seconds. That's more of a nerf to "lots of damage" though, and would penalise spec nukers.

 

[Elitestoner]

wouldnt make that much difference to me. its very easy to manually assist by /sticking the ma tank and just hitting whatever he hits, have had to before if i ld and log in and in the first fight found out my MA macro hasnt been updated.

 

[Zebolt]

I don't think it would change that much with the assist trains, you can easily see where the MA is going, it's harder for the nukers, who have to wait and see where the nuke effect lands and then follow with nukes there.

As I said I don't think it would change that much, it's not hard to assist without an assist macro you just have to look what's happening a bit more.

Maybe a personal damage reduction thing, if you take 600 damage within 2 seconds you get 20% resistance for the next 2 seconds. That's more of a nerf to "lots of damage" though, and would penalise spec nukers.

And that would suck big time for spec nukers indeed :x

 

[Eleasias]

Yes remove assist so the only thing I can do is wait for my PROPER group to play couple times a week instead of trying to enjoy the game with pugs once in a while, who are you kidding? If you removed it, it wouldnt affect real groups that much, but all the pugs would be so crippled they would be no fun at ALL and winning vs even a half-good GG becomes semi-impossible. So my point is, /assist helps the unorganized, crappy teamplay, never before grouped together, no voice-com PUGs more than any GG, and by removing it you only make the gap wider.

 

[Rediknight]

How about limiting the number of people able to assist at any one time by making it an RA? Would it be THAT hard to change it, so that to /assist someone you have to have some kind of affinity with them, by way of a guard, a protect, or something along them lines?

It could limit the number in an assist train to, for example, 3 by having the main tank apply a "comrade" ability to each?

As i said, i wouldn'... OMG!! Help be, i'ph goth my thongue thtuck!!!

 

[Jenk]

Yes remove assist so the only thing I can do is wait for my PROPER group to play couple times a week instead of trying to enjoy the game with pugs once in a while, who are you kidding? If you removed it, it wouldnt affect real groups that much, but all the pugs would be so crippled they would be no fun at ALL and winning vs even a half-good GG becomes semi-impossible. So my point is, /assist helps the unorganized, crappy teamplay, never before grouped together, no voice-com PUGs more than any GG, and by removing it you only make the gap wider.

So much anger

Take a moment to consider that by making the things you have mentioned as "crippling", could actually be of a benefit to the DAoC community.. they would encourage people to use Comms, and if they bring out in-game comms even easier to do so anyway..

People will be more encouraged to get into guilds and not be Clan Cotswold all their DAoC career

Remeber.. to use comms you don't need a mic, you can just listen for targets.


--

RE: "People will just manually assist"

Well, good That's the point being raised. The players will need to be alert, look around for their fellow groupie, assess what is going on and select their target. A lot better than just clicking /assist

 

[Neffneff]

As i said, i wouldn'... OMG!! Help be, i'ph goth my thongue thtuck!!!

ROFL!!!!!

rep for you!

 

[Rediknight]

Yes remove assist so the only thing I can do is wait for my PROPER group to play couple times a week instead of trying to enjoy the game with pugs once in a while, who are you kidding? If you removed it, it wouldnt affect real groups that much, but all the pugs would be so crippled they would be no fun at ALL and winning vs even a half-good GG becomes semi-impossible. So my point is, /assist helps the unorganized, crappy teamplay, never before grouped together, no voice-com PUGs more than any GG, and by removing it you only make the gap wider.

Reading that, you just come across as a bit 1337ist, to be honest, and i doubt that any "PUG" would want to group with you, during your periods of roughing it amongst us mere serfs...

Dude, maybe you should think of it the other way around? Maybe some of them twinked (or even "half-good") GG's you prefer turn out to be not half as good as you thought, and you realise that so many of them are just leeching...

Just charging around hitting MA-/stick-<spam main attack here> is, as the thread starter correctly says, very lame. It's winning by overwhelming with numbers and that is... anyone want to fill in the word?

*little timmy raises his hand*
yes timmy?
timmy: "Zerging, sir?"
Thats right timmy!! have an apple...

All these opted groups who consider themselves unstoppable would probably find that without the assist train method being applied, the gap between you lot and the random groups who are in it for the fun rather than the pwning, isn't as extreme as you may think.

Comms help, but they can't make someone who's just plain crap or slow any better or quicker. being able to hit three keys and get credit for it could be accomplished by a one fingered, single eyed, mindless chimp...

 

[Inko]

Now, how anoying would it be to target a single guy if the whole party were standing, clustered up, on the excatly same place? I'd wager removing /assist only allow for other somewhat 'dirty' tactics to be on the top edge in battle. Though as Zebolt said, I'm sure the assist train will manage pretty well without the /assist command in most cases.

However, I would much rather see some abilities added or some tactics, valid enough to counter an assist train that has set it's destination for my sorry sprinting arse. The problem is that the assist train is effective, fast and hard to counter, and don't require that much group organization and skill compared to other tactics. (..not saying people ain't got skills if they are in a train! - But they are wasting thier talents )

To sum it up: I doubt removing /assist will make trains easier to counter.

 

[Leel]

I think it would be nice if they removed it. There's a few skilless setgroups that would get royally fucked over then too, eleasias