Shops, Robbers and Video Tape

[stu]

If it was Perplex's sword, it would be Demon's Asterite Sword of Slaying (+3 Sword Skills, 20% Critical Hit)

hǽ

 

[Dimebag]

I like ultrarightwing things. Socialist (lazy, unintelligent) bastards.

 

[Durzel]

They should sterilise stupid people as well.

Think of all the medical and technological breakthroughs that could be accomplished without the having to cater for the lumpenprolitariat, those members of society blighted by immeasurable fatuity.

 

[Dimebag]

I got the first bit, but the rest of it is too hard.

What is lumpenproliteriat?

 

[Durzel]

Originally posted by Dimebag
I got the first bit, but the rest of it is too hard.

What is lumpenproliteriat?

lum·pen·pro·le·tar·i·at (lmpn-prl-târ-t, lm-)
n.

• The lowest, most degraded stratum of the proletariat. Used originally in Marxist theory to describe those members of the proletariat, especially criminals, vagrants, and the unemployed, who lacked class consciousness.
• The underclass of a human population.

 

[Dimebag]

k

 

[stu]

 

[Dimebag]

I got mushrooms, I got acid I got tabs

 

[Embattle]

Hmmm Pokeman fan eh Stu.

 

[xane]

The "underclass" theory is basically incorrect, people are just being people and adapting to their environment. If the system allows you to "get away with it" then its only natural that certain humans will respond to basic survival instincts.

The idea of a genetic link is preposterous, environment is the sole cause of social dysfunction, the entire concept of a "society" is alien to human nature anyway, whatever way you look at it, so we all have these mysterious "anti-social" genes.

But we all do it, we all break the "law", or the accepted moralistic restraints on our society, but on various levels, whether its speeding or toking or insurance fraud or VAT dodging or property theft, every single one of us reaches a point where we assess the risk-versus-reward factor.

Why are 9 year olds allowed to TDA ? Where is the police, what happened to 21st century technology that can improve car locking and immobilisation ? The point is that you CAN steal a car effortlessly and there is no-one who will stop you and even if you do get caught there is a good chance you'll escape prosecution. Whilst that environment exists there will always be someone who abuses it.

Change the environment, get a better car, improve policing.

I'm not saying there is an "underclass" mentality in these people, the culture they belong to certainly encourages it, but it is one fostered by a society that doesn't care or do anything about it. Every day I see criminal acts, from dogs shitting on pavements, adult content videos and games sold to minors, VAT evasion, etc. Why is car theft so different, it's just a natural progression of the same attitude.

 

[doh_boy]

I'm not sure if I agree with the social underclass arguement, when I was at school I was the most "uncool" phreak there. As for material things that stood me apart, when I was at school I never had anything even aproaching cool. My family wasn't poor but I still didn't have loads of cool new stuff and as soon as I was able I got a part-time job. In my expeirence bad behaviour has nothing to do with where you live/how poor you are, the worst people in my year had more money than I did and were the ones into drugs/shoplifting/etc. I think it has more to do with the parents, a lot of parents now are spending less time with their offspring prefering to stick them infront of the TV and let the Tv bring them up, these are the one's who complain that [Enter television programme here] has made their child a "monster". This explains why anti-social behaviour is prevalent in the poorer classes, the parents have not got much choice. They have to work as soon as possible or else they wouldn't have enough money. Lack of a role-model means that a child has nothing to strive for and a person who strives for nothing has nothing to loose so therefore will look for instant gratification which can be had with drugs and/or petty crime.

 

[mr.Blacky]

bollocks. (unless this is all a joke that I dont get )
Ok lets see what is wrong with all of this:

genes might (and this is a big might) give a person an aptitude for certain behavior, they will not give a certainty about how people will behave. Given the right treatment/education that aptitude might be taken away or put in a hold that those people will live a productive and happy life.
While Theories are nice to look at they are often just what the word says theories, and sometimes not true. I could also say that everybody is born in sin (acording to the bible) so lets sterilise everybody. Or I could say: "my theory is that all palestines are terrorits waiting to kill innocent people, lets kill them all" (this aint what I believe though).
The trouble with theories is that it is not proven!!!!1

ps about Hitler he would have given the death sentences, nothing else.

 

[Perplex]

Errr, in my original post I never once mentioned it as a genetic factor - go back and read.

In my follow-up post I mentioned genetics, but this wasn't the focus of the comment - the defective mindset was the main factor I was aiming at and as such I mean "defective reasoning brought about from lack of decent parenting, and social teaching by society"

So drop the whole genetics debate - otherwise we hark back 80 years to the days when people had their heads measured, and if certain lumps/bumps were found they were hung for being a potential murderer.

Again, I did not mention genetics at all, please move back to the original debate/point

 

[Embattle]

LOL

Chill

 

[Perplex]

Heh, I am chilled - it's just a refreshing change to see a meaningful debate on real life conundrums mate Also, I tend to debate quite ferociously, always have always will - doesn't mean I'm angry

 

[Embattle]

Well just to add my 2p, well I haven't read it totally, tbh there are always different theories and views regarding what/who is to blame and how to fix it.

 

[Perplex]

I haven't made any suggestions as to how to fix it - because imho the only viable options that are yet to be tried are so drastic and right-wing, that people will call me Hitler

 

[Dimebag]

I always like to be constructive and try and add things to the conversation.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by the-frizz
Perp hit the nail on the head. Its not just the way theyr'e brought up, it's in their genes, the way they act etc. If a person is born insane and brought up in a wealthy family, it doesnt matter if you give them the best education the system has to offer, they will still act abnormally.

The "genetics thing" was started here, Frizz incorrectly paraphrased Perplex.

Originally posted by Perplex
Yes this is ultraultra right-wing, but what you have to remember is these animalistic young males and females that have no concept of right and wrong other than pure animal instincts are producing children at a dizzy rate of knots. The actions of the parent figures are imprinted onto the child,m and the cycle perpetuates itself further.

IMHO these under-class hooligans should be given a fair number of chances to rehabilitate, say... five years. At the point they reach 18, if they have not yet got their act together, they should be chemically sterilized to stop the spread of their defective genetics, and their defective mental mindset to their children

Now you're not exactly distancing yourself from the eugenics idea here

As for "producing children at a dizzy rate of knots", I doubt very much this is either true or significant. By way of the underclass culture many offspring will either die before maturity, never reproduce or have children who are adopted into a different environment, the net result is exactly the same as the more "sociable" classes who have less children.

In fact, you'll find that its only middle income families that run by the 2.4 children rule (probably actually less than 2.0 nowdays), lower income _and_ higher income have more kids, so there is a sort of balancing factor going on here.

Regarding your fact on "rehabilitation", surely if this fails then it is the fault of the system not the offender. I'm all for effective rehabilitation to the point that unless someone can definitively prove they are not going to steal their third car, then they actually stay inside prison until they do - that's "effective". If someone evades the rehab process then it wasn't good enough.

Prison is seen as a "punishment", do the crime do the time, we all bemoan a rapist getting only five years, but if he never commits rape again then surely "justice" has been done ? As long as we hang on the the natural "eye for an eye" concept of justice then I'm afraid the underclass work on it and it becomes part of the risk-reward cycle, we end up with a society attitude like the one we complain about here.

Whilst we'd be happy to see serial rapists locked up for good under a "rehab" concept, are we also willing to accept that a reformed rapist could be out in three years, or even less, if he managed to convince he would not re-offend - I don't think so.

 

[Perplex]

I'd have to disagree with your point on the child birth rates amongst the under-classes. The number of single mothers bearing 4+ children from 4+ different fathers is high, added to which the young fathers are usually father to more than one child, each wioth a different mother

 

[Dimebag]

Someone deleted one of my posts...

Denial of freedom of speech is in direct violation of my human rights (c) Eurofaggots 199*

You will be hearing from my attourny mother fuckers!

 

[xane]

Depends what you mean by "high", in what proportion, I doubt its higher than the "non-underclass" in total.

Also, my point was also whether that is significant, if most of those kids either fail to reproduce or end up in a different "non-underclass" environment (through adoption or running away), then it defeats the point, that the underclass is outgrowing the rest of us.

You could even argue that underclass families need more children to ensure survival of the "cultural species"

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Perplex
I haven't made any suggestions as to how to fix it

Didn't say you did, person who wants to be called Adolf

 

[Perplex]

lol

 

[nath]

why don't they castrate repeat rapists/paedophiles?

It's no big deal, lose their sex drive, chat funny, probably wont try it again. Plus it's a fairly large deterant.

(slightly off topic, but I was just wondering..)

 

[old.Jas]

Interesting thread we have going here.

I totally agree with Perplex in regard to lower income women "producing children at a dizzy rate of knots" but I'm not sure what the solution is.

Perminent sterilisation is probably a good idea - stop the problem reoccuring a few years down the line. However I don't think genetics is the whole problem - education could solve some cases

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by camazotz
Depends what you mean by "high", in what proportion, I doubt its higher than the "non-underclass" in total.

Also, my point was also whether that is significant, if most of those kids either fail to reproduce or end up in a different "non-underclass" environment (through adoption or running away), then it defeats the point, that the underclass is outgrowing the rest of us.

You could even argue that underclass families need more children to ensure survival of the "cultural species"

First, you cleverly said "in total" - heh, that's not fair. Compare the underclass to any other single class and it's a fair comparison. And in this fairer comparison, I'd be bewildered if there are more under-class mothers with multiple children from differing fathers than any other single defined class. Also, similarly, I have no doubt that the number of fathers that have children to multiple women are much higher in the underclass than any other single defined class.

Yes, the underclass is outgrowing every other sector of society, and it's very worrying, hence the enforced sterilisation of the mothers and fathers squirting out brats every year and leaching all the associated costs on benefits from the rest of society. And the majority of these children don't end up adopted or running away - they end up either as:

• Hardcore criminals
• Petty criminals
• In council housing living off benefits with multiple children

And yes, it could be argued that the underclass needs to produce more offspring to maintain its survival - however, it's not worthy of survival and should be eliminated in order to allow the rest of society to advance without having a monolithic millstone around its neck

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by Jas
Perminent sterilisation is probably a good idea - stop the problem reoccuring a few years down the line. However I don't think genetics is the whole problem - education could solve some cases

Unfortunately it's a no-win situation. The children simply don't want to go to school when they see everyone else in their neighbourhood nicking stuff and doing alright for themselves. If they get nicked by the police, they get let off anyway.

Maybe you'll next argue it's down to the parents to ensure their children attend schools. Well, unfortunately, in the underclass the parents predominately haven't even finished high school themselves - and as such do not see the value of it at all. Schooling and education would be an answer, if you could actually pin them down and force them to attend.

You can bring a horse to water, but as hard as you try, you can not make it drink.

 

[Embattle]

I believe the Chinese only allow you to have one baby and you can only have more if you can prove that you can afford it.


A couple was recently in the papers and thy've had 20 kids or something which is just stupid as they are now living off social....seems they pop them out and we pay for them.

 

[Perplex]

Yes, and unfortunately thousands of babies are murdered each year beacuse they all want boys to provide for the family, not girls.

Won't work, the only option is either A) a mass cull of the entire underclass or B) Enforced sterilisation of the entire underclass, allowing their breed to die out slowly