Sharia Law UK.

[tierk]

i know i saw some people commenting on sharia law into the uk, well seems that it really is a topic of debate currently in Britian.....

BBC NEWS | UK | Sharia law and the British legal system

Discuss.

 

[Corran]

simple... they can go fuck of to an islamic country if that is what they want.

You have to all live by the same set of rules and laws. If you don't then there will be chaos as people will not know where the legal system stands. You cant favour a person due to their religion.

If people come to britain, or live in britain and take on islamic etc way of life they understand they do so whilst remaining under our own laws. If we change that at all then it definate time to leave the country.

 

[Poon]

I was going to write a fluffly well thought out post on this but its early and i'm tired so my views on this are blunt.

People can worship who they want but if they think they can get special treatment just due to the fact they worship the four fking sun gods they can fuck right off.

 

[preacherboy]

They take our jobs what more do they want :touch:

 

[Maeloch]

Friggin C of E muppet. Remove legal recognition of christians, nm start giving it to everyone else. The State should be colourblind to religion. Hope raising the issue backfires on him.

 

[Lollie]

You cant have a legal system within another legal system it would just lead to increased crime rates in eyes, how long would it be till someone used sharia law to get away with something.

 

[Mey]

They take our jobs what more do they want :touch:

OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Though in all seriousness if you read the article preacherboy it's actually the Archbishop (so a christian) asking for the changes.

I think its main flaw is the UK population is never going to accept a change in the law to work in favour of some foreign belief system. Will the system only apply to Muslims? So as per the example used in the article will it only be muslim doctors able to opt out of aboritions or will it be anyone?

On an interesting note, Jewish courts are already in operation in the UK, and have been for some time. The Beth Din as they call it can be appointed arbitor of a dispute between 2 parties and its eventual decision is binding.

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's a nice enough idea, for a world-around-judged-by-your-own-people-court, but people are too racist for this to work.

Yes, racist. That's what it comes down to.

 

[Mey]

It's a nice enough idea, for a world-around-judged-by-your-own-people-court, but people are too racist for this to work.

Yes, racist. That's what it comes down to.

Considering Sharia Law removes a number of key human rights, I don't think it would be nice and fluffy, the law needs to be indepedent in my opinon free from religious dogma and teaching. If it's not the whole idea of religion is flawed. So much for free will ey'.

 

[Fafnir]

They moved here, so they should live by our laws/rules. We wont be able to live by our laws/rules if we moved to Iran/Iraq/Saudi.

If this would ever happen it would only add more fuel to the fire and increase support for nationalist parties.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Considering Sharia Law removes a number of key human rights, I don't think it would be nice and fluffy, the law needs to be indepedent in my opinon free from religious dogma and teaching. If it's not the whole idea of religion is flawed. So much for free will ey'.

The basic "key human rights" and "basic law" is so strongly based on the basic church that it's rather ridicilous to say "shouldn't be based on religion" when most of the western laws are based on just that.

Anyhoo, yeah, there's some silly thing in the sharia law, from a general "that can't be right" point of view and from personal view, but if the people who believe in it want to be judged by ti, fine. Aslong as there's a choice and you abide by those laws to the death.

Now, if a woman wants to live in the UK, by UK laws, then that should be given too.

Never said a "judged by peers" is a fluffy way to law, but ti's a choice and in my mind, it would give the same freedom religion gives. Choose your judgement and stick by it.

They moved here, so they should live by our laws/rules. We wont be able to live by our laws/rules if we moved to Iran/Iraq/Saudi.

And yet, what was that big whallamaloo about the teacher, living in THEIR country being judged by THEIR laws and how it was suddenly wrong?

Something about muhammed the bear or some such.

 

[Mey]

Sorry I was not too clear on what I meant with my statement, I was not talking about exisiting laws. I was talking about this magical fluffy one.

The existing law is by no means perfect in the uk, but I think it works quite alright. I can't really advocate a legal system incorporating Sharia Law even if it is only for people that want it.

Even if we look at your example: Women comes to the Uk to live as a Uk citizen not as a muslim or what ever, Muslim man gets annoyed at this so kills said women, gets tried by Sharia court.. "o thats ok, he did it because he thought the religion told him to!".

When do you draw the line? What crimes should allow for personal choice?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Sorry I was not too clear on what I meant with my statement, I was not talking about exisiting laws. I was talking about this magical fluffy one.

The existing law is by no means perfect in the uk, but I think it works quite alright. I can't really advocate a legal system incorporating Sharia Law even if it is only for people that want it.

Even if we look at your example: Women comes to the Uk to live as a Uk citizen not as a muslim or what ever, Muslim man gets annoyed at this so kills said women, gets tried by Sharia court.. "o thats ok, he did it because he thought the religion told him to!".

When do you draw the line? What crimes should allow for personal choice?

I thought about that example, while writing about it, and then you'd have to judge by the defendants laws. Man kill another, sharia law sayes it's ok, but, only applies to women of the sharia law. I'm betting, that sharia law doesn't condone murdering of a woman from another country/law/religion, right?

It's not a magical "fluffy" one, it's a choice one. Gives freedom to live in another country, without being judged by their laws on some issues. Basically like a, extended visa?

But it will never happen so we can just forget it.

 

[Cemeterygates]

I very much doubt it would happen tbh,but if it did i think it would cause such uproar that civil war could well break out. I'm no racist,but it seems fucking ridiculous that such a thing could be considered "lets adapt to their ways cos they want it,fuck our ways an traditions" muslim,jew,hindu fuckin whatever you are...law of the land. I stand by that view that if i was to commit an "offence" in another country under their laws i should be dealt with accordingly,even if it is fuckin medieval.

 

[preacherboy]

Archbishop should do is job and let the politicians do there's I'm probably,100% sure 98.8% of Muslims in this country want to live by our laws,Catholics can get divorced by the state as I'm sure muslims can too if they get married by our laws?

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Hmmm, got a bit of an update on this...

"He's saying they want to adopt SOME aspects of Sharia law..." Yet they havent actually said which aspects (Just watching the news now).

My problem is that I don't realy want two lots of laws running in this country, the courts are having enough trouble as it is keeping order. What we need is an overhaul of law and order not further confusion of the whole bloody process. Being allowed to kill a family member for 'dis-honour' is just wrong to me, after all they are not Klingons (just an example).

I say overhaul what we have, bring back the death sentence for murderers, rapists and pedo's*, turn the prisions into the hell-holes they should be, as well as bringing back chain gang style work crews for those on minor sentences (save 'em being sat on their arses all day), and bring the army into the process too.

Fuck this 'one law for us, one law for you'... one law for all, you don't like it, fuck off somewhere else. You want to intergrate, settle down and live a nice quiet life and practice Islam without being an outright nutjob.. fair enough, i'd help them find a job. If they want to turn my home into 'Little Islam' with its own laws and regulations, then they can quite firmly kiss my arse, and go back to the 'old country' and practice their faiths to whatever degree they want to in an enviroment more suitable to their line of thinking.

There is a fine line for accomidation someones beleifs, and this is just one step too far. This is Britain, these are our rules and our rights. You shall abide by them, or go somewhere else.

 

[noblok]

I didn't think he wanted to implement parts of the Sharia which blatantly go against human rights. This discussion is just proving his point though. As soon as Sharia is mentioned, everyone goes "Madness!" without even listening to what he's actually saying. Every law is coloured by values (such as murder=evil). It's silly to a priori exclude the islamic tradition as a source of value.

I think this should be viewed case per case. It might very well be possible that the Sharia has some things which would be a welcome addition to the "Western" legal system. Pip's idea is e.g. one which I can't see anything wrong with: introducing a different kind of marriage where divorce is impossible (next to the already existing one, not as a replacement).

 

[Binky the Bomb]

I think this should be viewed case per case. It might very well be possible that the Sharia has some things which would be a welcome addition to the "Western" legal system. Pip's idea is e.g. one which I can't see anything wrong with: introducing a different kind of marriage where divorce is impossible (next to the already existing one, not as a replacement).

Oh don't get me wrong, i'd be happy to debate this properly, but the fact is he's just said 'some aspects' without mentioning specifics, and its his mouth peice bishops and preists that are saing 'this is what he ment'...

Mind you, i'd expect this from a religious leader... no balls you see (or not in use).

 

[Mey]

Binky why do you think turning prisions into hell holes (it's debatable - whether this is there current state anyway.) will help reduce crime?

In my opinon all that will serve to do is make the working conditions in prisions highly dangerous, almost unbearable. Leading to numerous deaths of prision workers and possible riots and so on. The end result prisioners who hate society and will fight back at it when they are released.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Binky why do you think turning prisions into hell holes (it's debatable - whether this is there current state anyway.) will help reduce crime?

In my opinon all that will serve to do is make the working conditions in prisions highly dangerous, almost unbearable. Leading to numerous deaths of prision workers and possible riots and so on. The end result prisioners who hate society and will fight back at it when they are released.

Hmm...this got me thinking. Another thread inc.

 

[Dukat]

Heard this on the news last night, had a right laugh until I realised it wasnt a joke.

The stupid gandalf lookalike can go fuck himself tbh.

He argues that Muslims find themselves "faced with the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty"

Why should muslims get special treatment? Everyone who comes to the UK faces alot of changes, some more than others, but at the end of the day its thier choice to come here. This isnt colonial britian forcing itself on another country, this is them coming to our country of thier own free will.

Why is it up to us to change for them? When that teacher was prosecuted over the teddybear thing people said "when in rome...", why shouldnt this hold true in reverse?

When british troops go to a muslim country they arent allowed alchohol. Even though they're often fighting and dying for the country in question, they still abide by the laws of that country. Why shouldnt the same hold true for civilians coming to our country?

he fears the other option is a "standoff" where members of minority religious communities feel that the gap between their principles and the legal system of the state is so vast, the only option open to them is to opt out of the mainstream legal system.

I'm sorry... come again? "Opt out of the mainstream legal system"? what?! Surely that should read "the only option open to them is to emigrate" ?

I'm sorry, I feel like I sound like a spokesperson for the BNP. Thats not what I want at all, I just think that the idea of having our laws changed like this is appalling.

British law is built up around christianity, which is the mainstream religion here. Why should it have to change to suit another religion that isnt native to the country? I dont know the details of this plan, I guess if its done right it might not even be noticable and could do some good, however I just feel like this is us compromising our own culture so that immigrants who arent willing to adapt can feel at home. This to me is wrong.

 

[angrymoon]

short answer, no
long answer, not in my fucking lifetime

 

[tris-]

if they dont like english law thats been in place for centuries, they can fuck off to where it is they come from and follow that law. i dont expect to move to china and make them put in place the english legal system. equally i wouldnt expect a north korean to somehow make their way to canada and demand the north korean legal system over there either.

opting out of the legal system = breaking the law. but i guess if youre a muslim its OK.

arnt we supposed to be integrating these awkward fucks into our society? how does giving them seperate laws make them integrated? i really cant understand how muslims can just go about demanding what ever the fuck they want left and right.
if i went to afghanistan and said make it british, id get shot.

 

[Castus]

if they dont like english law thats been in place for centuries, they can fuck off to where it is they come from and follow that law. i dont expect to move to china and make them put in place the english legal system. equally i wouldnt expect a north korean to somehow make their way to canada and demand the north korean legal system over there either.

opting out of the legal system = breaking the law. but i guess if youre a muslim its OK.

arnt we supposed to be integrating these awkward fucks into our society? how does giving them seperate laws make them integrated? i really cant understand how muslims can just go about demanding what ever the fuck they want left and right.
if i went to afghanistan and said make it british, id get shot.

The laws of the country should refelct and protect the society its designed for and should evolve as the community does.If in 100 years from now the countries 75% muslim ( born here) then what relevance will a christian based law system have?

If Sharia law has stricter punishments for paedos and the like than i`m all for it!

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Binky why do you think turning prisions into hell holes (it's debatable - whether this is there current state anyway.) will help reduce crime?

In my opinon all that will serve to do is make the working conditions in prisions highly dangerous, almost unbearable. Leading to numerous deaths of prision workers and possible riots and so on. The end result prisioners who hate society and will fight back at it when they are released.

I would rather have an instituion that breaks the spirit of 'hardcore offenders' crushing their spirit, and demoralising them to the point were re-offending would be such a taboo.

For example: I would rather see a serial wife beater stripped of all his spirit, his dignity crushed and his will ground down to the dirt, then see him released after 2 years just so he can go batter another woman again. I'd want him contemplating suicide rather than touch another woman.

 

[Chronictank]

Law in this country is not set in stone, it hasn't 'been in place for centures'
it changes with the times to reflect the society it governs
If you don't believe that you really need to read something other than the Sun every now and again
For example the smoking ban didnt exist 2 yrs ago and it does now..
the law is definitely not a static, as well it shouldnt be

opting out of the legal system = breaking the law. but i guess if youre a muslim its OK.

arnt we supposed to be integrating these awkward fucks into our society? how does giving them seperate laws make them integrated? i really cant understand how muslims can just go about demanding what ever the fuck they want left and right.
if i went to afghanistan and said make it british, id get shot.

Find me one example of people being let off with breaking a law because they are a muslim, or any faith for that matter, or is this just empty rhetoric because you just like hating on people because of their religious background? (this isnt the first thread you have posted such drivvel).

While i disagree with the Arch bishop's comments about dual laws i do think that there are aspects of sharia law which would do well being integrated into Western law
One example being how punishements for serious crimes are decided by the victim rather than a judge, so if you rape a girl and are found guilty she decides (within a certain range of choices) whether to forgive or punish you, or let the judge decide.
In a country where punishments are a joke i think this would be a welcome addition among other things.

In addition i think it will inevitably be taught in legal schools and such because of globalisation, middle eastern countries are no longer 'the ones over there', they are becoming a global force. For example in December the Tokyo Stock Exchange launched the Sharia Index which is a list of companies that trade in Japan which are Sharia compliant (products and services considered unacceptable under Islamic law so alcohol, gambling, pornography etc etc) containing 79 companies and growing. Banks now adopt a Sharia system and allow users to choose what type of account they want.
If you want to become a relic of the past, sure be closed minded and ignore that on a global stage this is happening. The rest of us will adapt and continue to develop in modern society

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Ah, at last, someone who is talking sence. (An interview on BBC news)

"In sharia law, when you wed, its all ceremony and a registration. However, to devorce, all it requires is the MAN to shout divorce three times (in public, for witnesses). That can, and will, be abused by western abusive muslims."

At last, something specific.

 

[Chronictank]

Ah, at last, someone who is talking sence. (An interview on BBC news)

"In sharia law, when you wed, its all ceremony and a registration. However, to devorce, all it requires is the MAN to shout divorce three times (in public, for witnesses). That can, and will, be abused by western abusive muslims."

At last, something specific.

I think he has lost the plot somewhat, but why is integrating some of the better bits into our laws such a bad thing?

 

[Binky the Bomb]

I think he has lost the plot somewhat, but why is integrating some of the better bits into our laws such a bad thing?

Define "better bits" including the laws as they are written.

 

[Mojo]

Ah, at last, someone who is talking sence. (An interview on BBC news)

"In sharia law, when you wed, its all ceremony and a registration. However, to devorce, all it requires is the MAN to shout divorce three times (in public, for witnesses). That can, and will, be abused by western abusive muslims."

At last, something specific.

I like it, but how does it work for the woman?