Shadowblade Question

[sigidil]

Hello everyone,

I have a nice question for the left axe users among us.

I have a shadowblade that is specced thisway:

50 Axe
44 Left Axe
36 Stealth
25 Envenom
(Shadowzerker)
Now my question to all of you is:

What the "best" combine Axe - Left Axe I use?
-> Hand Axe (15.0) + Dbbl Bladed (16.1)
-> Hand Axe (15.0) + Cleaver (16.5)

Also what do I use before and after Realm Rank 5?

People told me HA + DbbL Bladed is the best for Shadowzerker but then I think --> 15.0 + 16.1 <-- (Max. is 16.2)

Looks kinda weird but it could be true tho.

Thx for the reactions

Sigi

 

[old.anubis]

16.1 is display bug, it's 16.2 actually

 

[Slu]

From what you posted it's best with

-> Hand Axe (15.0) + Dbbl Bladed (16.1)

both before and after rr5.

Speed is more important than dps for LA users when finding the best damaging set up.


In 1.64 we get a 16.5dps 4.2spd axe which will be very nice and from then on the best main hand weapon.

 

[sigidil]

Thank u very much both of u !

/bow

 

[old.Stang]

Hand Axe and DB axe till rr5 then Weighted Bearded and Cleaver i think.

(Hope you get the two MP's i gived to guild )

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by old.Stang
Hand Axe and DB axe till rr5 then Weighted Bearded and Cleaver i think.

(Hope you get the two MP's i gived to guild )

Wrong - Cleaver is never better for damage output for dual wielders ( neither pre RR5 or post RR5 ):

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=84604

and:

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=87752

 

[iluvatur]

simple rule for any duel wielding people ....

SLOWEST = MAIN HAND
FASTEST = OFFHAND

and by fastest and slowest i mean in the realm, either crafted or dropped

sorry for the caps ... just annoying to see all these ppl using sidi/TG/CC shite with really bad speeds

and just get lvl51 crafted stuff straight away ... doesnt cost that much ><

 

[freeco]

Got a question for ya.

Normally i use 2 x 4.0 dps cleavers on Cracked, because i have meleespeed bot. Im thinking that i would cap meleespeed if i used 4.0 and a 2.4 axe. Anyone that ever tested this?

It's quite nice to do like 175 mainhand and 100 in offhand damage

 

[Haldar]

4.0+2.4 combo with 20% haste buff and 250 qui will result in 1.58 sec per swing, and cap is 1.5

 

[Haldar]

Originally posted by Whisperess
Wrong - Cleaver is never better for damage output for dual wielders ( neither pre RR5 or post RR5 ):

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=84604

and:

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=87752

hmm....i read thru ur 1st link...and found 2 weak points.

1) "For CS-styles, use CS as weaponspec. For LA-styles, use the main-hand weapon spec. ( the modified value, so for 44+14 CS in my case, I would use 58 as the weapon spec value for cs-styles )"

why use main weapon spec for LA styles instead of LA spec?

2) In this test u have shown that each styled or unstyled swing of DB axe will yield more damage than cleaver, even at RR5. Good. But the question of total avg dps still remains unresolved - surely cleaver will hit for less, but it will attack faster.....CBA to do analysis myself - too lazy atm

 

[Slu]

Originally posted by Haldar
1) "For CS-styles, use CS as weaponspec. For LA-styles, use the main-hand weapon spec. ( the modified value, so for 44+14 CS in my case, I would use 58 as the weapon spec value for cs-styles )"

why use main weapon spec for LA styles instead of LA spec?

Probably just a typo. When using LA styles you have to use your LA spec as weapon spec to find your styled damage.

2) In this test u have shown that each styled or unstyled swing of DB axe will yield more damage than cleaver, even at RR5. Good. But the question of total avg dps still remains unresolved - surely cleaver will hit for less, but it will attack faster.....CBA to do analysis myself - too lazy atm

Well, to do it very quickly, mostly just cut and paste from my replies on those threads it was linked to here you go:

Effective LA speed with 250qui and no haste:

DB+HA: 3.3spd * (1-190/500)= 2.046spd

Cleaver+HA: 3.2spd * (1-190/500)= 1.984spd



Then the base damage done with same LA spec as Whisp's example:

(Whisps example)
Unstyled LA cap with 27 LA, DB: 217.59192 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 27)= 155,969888256

Unstyled LA cap with 27 LA, Cleaver: 209.88 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 27)= 150,441984



NOTE: We don't have to consider the damage from the off hand now, since this scenario was with the same off hand weapon - just the main hand weapon changed.


Damage per second:

DB: 155,969888256 / 2.046 = 76.23161691

Cleaver: 150,441984 / 1.984 = 75.8276129

So DB > Cleaver

 

[Haldar]

DB: 155,969888256 / 2.046 = 76.23161691

Cleaver: 150,441984 / 1.984 = 75.8276129

tbh, we'd add offhand dmg here:

let it be Gazsi's Bearded Axe, 16.2 dps 2.4 delay

base cap=DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = 118.03968

adjusted cap: 118.03968*(0.625 + 0.0034 * 27)= 81.610842624

total damage:

cleaver -- (150,441984 + 81.610842624) / 1.984 ~= 118.47420696

DB axe -- (155,969888256 + 81.610842624) / 2.046 ~= 117.58588997

so cleaver > DB at RR5+

 

[Slu]

Yes, Haldar, that's true when we look at the unstyled damage and includes off hand base damage.

But you get a bit more style bonus from the DB axe and that will even it more out and eventually the results will change.

Depending on your weapon spec (ie the skill line you use styles from), style growth rate, speed of main hand weapon and if you got haste buff / MoA, the result will change.
This is also done with 100% qua weapon, any lower qua and you can't go with these results.


If you have a low weaponspec and use a style with low growth rate, then cleaver will be better than DB.
But if you have a very high weaponspec and use styles with high growth rate, then DB will be better than cleaver.



Anyway, the difference between these two weapons in this scenario is very small so it won't matter much what you use imo. Just be sure to change to the new axe we get in 1.64:
16.5dps 4.2spd yummie





NB: These calculations may have a source of error in them too fyi. When we add base damage / style damage the game rounds them down (!) afaik, so these results are probably not 100% accurate (and I cba to type it all down and do all the calculations here). When we add resists to the picture the same will happen here, so don't take this for a 100% accurate answer. One thing is calculating it all on a piece of paper and one thing is how it really works ingame when factoring AF, armor type, weaponskill, resists, melee bonuses, buffs etc etc.


Anyway, the results will still be somewhat similar and the difference between cleaver and DB is very small. You're looking at roughly just 1-3 pts of damage difference per second, and that's not much at all..

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Haldar
4.0+2.4 combo with 20% haste buff and 250 qui will result in 1.58 sec per swing, and cap is 1.5

4.2 + 2.4 combo with 20% haste + mo arms 2 would that hit the cap?

After 1.64 when moa is fixed that is

 

[Slu]

Originally posted by -RG-Jaond
4.2 + 2.4 combo with 20% haste + mo arms 2 would that hit the cap?

After 1.64 when moa is fixed that is

Yes, with 250qui, 20% haste and MoA2 you would cap at 1.5 secs.




(Main hand weapon would swing at 1.8816 secs alone)

 

[Whisperess]

Basically - the difference is minimal, but with styles DB axe will be > Cleaver. The point with my entire text was to show that you can't just look at the dps and qua ( like oh so many do when picking weapons from TG ) and forget about spd.

And yes, that was a typo. ( or brain-lock really, did take quite a lot of time getting it all down and making sure I didn't make any errors in the calculations )

And yes - really looking forward to the 4.2 spd 16.5 dps weapons in 1.64

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Slu
Yes, with 250qui, 20% haste and MoA2 you would cap at 1.5 secs.




(Main hand weapon would swing at 1.8816 secs alone)

Ok so it might be enough with moa1 or should i get moa2 also?

 

[Haldar]

Slu

duh, just realised that i was using unstyled mainhand dmg in my calculations. True, if we add styled part, the results may change...tho i doubt that qua or styles or stats will affect the final result -- axe 1 > axe 2. Anyway, diff will be minimal, so weapon choice comes to looks of it (RP issue) and current SC set -- 36 or 37 IP to have. And yes, new 1.64 axe will pwn both weapons.

-RG-Jaond

avg spd = 3.3
adjusted for 250 qui = 2.046.

now, I do not know if Moa is added to haste or multiplied by it.

if added - new speed will be 2.046* (1-20%-6%)= 1.51404
if multiplied -- new speed will be 2.046* (1-20%)(1-6%)= 1.538592

so no, u wont cap swing speed with this combo either way

 

[Slu]

Originally posted by Haldar
-RG-Jaond

avg spd = 3.3
adjusted for 250 qui = 2.046.

now, I do not know if Moa is added to haste or multiplied by it.

if added - new speed will be 2.046* (1-20%-6%)= 1.51404
if multiplied -- new speed will be 2.046* (1-20%)(1-6%)= 1.538592

so no, u wont cap swing speed with this combo either way

This isn't right. MoA isn't added that way, it's like this:

First we have the qui modifier: (with 250 qui) 1 - (190 / 500) = 0.62 <---- 0.62 is really 62% of the original swing time

Then we have to "add" MoA2 (6%): 0.62 - 0.6 = 0.56 <---- which is actually 56% of original swing time


After that we add the haste buff to find the haste modifier: 1 - 20% = 0.8 <---- which is 80% really


Then we can sum it all up to this:


Actual LA speed: (4.2 + 2.4) / 2 = 3.3

Add 250 qui and MoA2 modifiers: 3.3 * 0.56 = 1.848

Add 20% haste buff: 1.848 * 0.8 = 1.4784

So yes, with MoA2 you will cap out and swing every 1.5 secs.

Originally posted by -RG-Jaond
Ok so it might be enough with moa1 or should i get moa2 also?

With MoA1 you will swing every 1.5575999999999998 secs.




For all those wanting to know the weapon speed with haste buffs, MoA, different qui etc, here's a good site for you:

http://daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Speed_Calc

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Thanks

 

[Whisperess]

If you hit the cap - start thinking about using a slower offhand weapon to boost damage - you lose out on damage if you go below the damage cap.

 

[Haldar]

Whisperess

where have u read about moa working the way u described? give link plz.

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Slu
For all those wanting to know the weapon speed with haste buffs, MoA, different qui etc, here's a good site for you:

http://daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Speed_Calc

Now thats was one good link thanks for that, if i understand this right, with a 4.2spd sword + 3.2spd axe i will almost hit cap with 20%haste and moa2 great

 

[Slu]

Originally posted by Haldar
Whisperess

where have u read about moa working the way u described? give link plz.

was me not Whisp


i don't have the link where I read about MoA working the way I described, but from my memory each lvl of MoA = 15 qui

You can also reverse the calculations you get from the speed calc I linked to and you will get the same result.


MoA2 = 30 qui gives this:

Actual LA speed: (4.2 + 2.4) / 2 = 3.3

***
Qui modifier: (with 250 qui and MoA2 = 280 qui) 1 - ((280 - 60) / 500) = 0.56
***





3.3 * 0.56 = 1.848

Add 20% haste buff: 1.848 * 0.8 = 1.4784

 

[freeco]

Think i will change to 4.0 and 2.4 axes then. would close in on swingspeedcap. Atleast ill try it out.