Sept. 11th

[Scooba Da Bass]

Originally posted by Damini
I don't have an unfounded trust in the USA. I have said they are heavily flawed, but I care about the normal every day people in the USA just as I do about the normal every day people in Iraq. I have a problem with the kind of blind hatred that leads to these situations happening in the first place. You seem unable to differentiate between the man on the street and the man in the white house, and direct your malice towards all and sundry. I'm not arguing that the USA is a saint, but what I'm trying to find is some empathy. Kenny works in London, much as those people worked in the twin towers, suited and booted and doing his nine till five. If someone murdered him out of the blue simply because he was english, or not even english but working in an english building, my world would be ripped apart. It is upsetting just thinking about it. And thats the issue as I see it. Thats what 3,000 people went through on that day, and I can empathise with just how harrowing that must be for them. His life, to me, is precious, much as all those peoples lives were to someone.

But you can't relate to that. And I find that disturbing. Your politics and your rational may be sound (though your description of the american back ground sounds like a white rendition of the "savage blacks" racism) but how can you argue politics and war when you can't attribute any value to human life? Surely that makes it all meaningless?

As already indicated, a member of my semi immediate family commited suicide in protest about the shocking involvement of America in Yugoslavian affairs.

This is a man who I met on many occasions, I won't post what my significant other thinks of the US, mainly because I imagine she'd be labelled as a racist. The American government is in power because it was elected in, polls suggest that a vast majority of people not only agree with US foreign policy, but actively support it.

When I heard the news, and saw the footage last Sept. 11th, it made me cry. I wouldn't wish death on anyone. However it's very hard to be 100% sympathetic towards the grieving US, when I know the vast majority of people support a policy which leads to even more deaths world wide.

There's two sides to the coin, and the US isn't the only group of people to have lost loved ones due to 'terrorist' actions.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Damini
Stu, I didn't think he was offering money to the families of Al Queda, I should have been more clear, I thought he was offering money to the families of Palistinian suicide bombers. I read it fleetingly somewhere though, so I don't know the in's and out's of it.

Ah ok. There is truth to this, but it's not as simple as it sounds.

One of Israel's latest policies (I'll try and maintain a lack of bias here) is to expel and exile the families of suicide bombers. Apparently if you are related to a suicide bomber this means that you are an elevated risk of being a suicide bomber yourself, and therefore the Israeli government takes you away, interrogates you for a few days, then dumps you in no-man's land and says "be on your way". Obviously this is a great way to target potential suicide bombers, because as we all know becoming a suicide bomber is actually genetic, and not caused by lengthy and sustained desperation at the way your countrymen, friends and family are being treated. And obviously this will deter suicide bombers themselves, because obviously they won't now commit these acts, because they'll think about the potential consequences for their family. It's not like blowing yourself up is a final act when you truly believe there is no hope left for your family anyway, after all.

Anyway, Saddam publically stated that he would assist those people who had been expelled by Israel on no other basis than one of their relations blew himself up. Obviously the slant you could take on it is "Saddam supports suicide bombers". The statement was made as a direct response to the new Israeli policy of expulsion, however. He also did not propose to unilaterally start throwing cash at the families of suicide bombers, but to help those people who had been expelled from their homes.

 

[Damini]

Why do people assume that if I argue that killing americans is wrong, that I'm automatically condoning Americans killing other people? Scooba, I think its awful that your fiance's godfather felt his own viable option was suicide, and obviously things are fundamentally wrong when a system pushes people to these decisions. His life was obviously worth a great deal to you and your fiancee, and in no way would I even contemplate diminishing that because his life is not an english life or an american life. A life is a life, regardless what skin or dialect that it is hosted in.

As to supporting policies; ask average Joe on the streets why he voted Tony in. The majority will say he didn't, because even in a democracy it means winning the largest percentage of votes, not that the majority of people want to vote you in. A large percentage of people didn't even vote. Those that did probably voted over the NHS, tax, minimum wage issues, crime rates... a very small percentage of the average working man is concerned with foreign affairs, rightly or wrongly. The majority of americans when interviewed couldn't name Bush's stance on foreign affairs or even any major electoral stance; they voted because they liked his father, or because they liked his persona. Maybe their ignorance is their own fault, but not everyone has the capability to fully comprehend foreign affairs, even if it is explained. I struggle, and I consider myself fairly bright. I didn't vote last time round, because I felt I didn't understand the key issues enough to make a decision on them; does that make me better or worse than the people that did vote, ignoring the key issues? I have no idea. Is it right then that my life should be forfeit, because of my governments foreign affairs? I don't think so. It may be easy to villify the man on the street in the USA because the USA is a democracy, but nothing is ever so simple as that.

 

[Stazbumpa]

All I will say is that the Middle East hates the Western world. Fair enough. We have a quality of life that beats the shit out of anything they will ever have. Let them hate us, coz I don't fucking care. But if they want to kill us for this, then I say kill them first.

Islamic society is shit and they blame the West for it. Anyone, in fact, but themselves. In Britain, Muslim clerics denounce our way of life, but won't fuck off to Afghanistan to preach their hatred because they can't live off the fucking DSS there.

I reckon this is fuck all to do with persecution and everything to do with the fact that the Islamic world has built and acheived NOTHING of any great importance since its inception. But to blame their repressive religious regimes is inconceivable to them, so they blame the "unbelievers" ie: us.



9/11 showed us how far they will go, so we have to walk taller and carry a bigger stick. It's them or us, and I choose us.


PS: I know this post is very one eyed and indeed uneducated, but this is my gut feeling on the subject, without all the gloss and who-did-this-to-who-first bollocks.

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

No, what annoys me is that the majority DO support US foreign policy, and have said as much in polls.

My issue with American involvement is that I've felt first hand what American policy does. The fact that they will fund and encourage local terrorists, for nothing other than monetry control I find utterly reprehensible, and as such I can't see why anyone would support such a country to be trusted making any decisions about other countries.

 

[Shocko]

Originally posted by Stazbumpa
I reckon this is fuck all to do with persecution and everything to do with the fact that the Islamic world has built and acheived NOTHING of any great importance since its inception.

What utter bullshit you spew. Islamic society was the most advanced in the world for along time, pushing forward science and tecnolodgy.

How many muslim clerics have you seen? I've never seen a cleric denouncing me as evil, and i've never met a muslim who had anything bad to say about my oppinions and beliefs. Admittedly, it's because i've met far more Christians, that i've gotten loads of shit from them about embracing the lord, etc, however you can allways tell the Jehovis Wittnesses where to go, innit.

 

[kameleon]

US foreign policy is absolutely reprehensible. Any nation who can promote freedom and so called free market economy by funding terrorism through the back door deserves everything they get.

I'm not taking anything away from the tragedy that happened a year ago today the people in the towers, on the planes and on the ground did not deserve to die that way. The people who should have carried the can are those who actively promote free market policy. E.g. the people who pass the laws that allow children to die from disease caused by blockades and embargos in places like Cuba.

I find it disgusting that a country which has only 4% of the population of the world is producing 25% of the polution that is eroding the ozone layer and causing flooding and other freak weather conditions throughout the planet and yet refuses point blank to sign treaties that will go a long way to reversiing the damage caused by noxious emmissions and a rape policy in order to keep rich men even richer.

A lot of the Americans I talk to all claim to be against polution and mineral exploitation and yet these are the same people who start to riot when gas goes up 5 cents a gallon.

People don't rise up if they are happy. To quote an american phrase "Go Figure!"

 

[Damini]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
No, what annoys me is that the majority DO support US foreign policy, and have said as much in polls.

My issue with American involvement is that I've felt first hand what American policy does. The fact that they will fund and encourage local terrorists, for nothing other than monetry control I find utterly reprehensible, and as such I can't see why anyone would support such a country to be trusted making any decisions about other countries.

I'm sure that those that support it don't understand the depths of it like you do. American media is incredibly selective in the images and news it presents, and highly productive on the positive propoganda front; infact, it is very hard to find an american produced film that doesn't have that pro-americanism theme embedded in it at some level.

I understand where you are coming from Scooba, even if you think I'm missing horribly I just don't think people grasp the concept in its entirety. You're viewing it from an external viewpoint, and most americans don't ever leave their state, let alone their country.

 

[MYstIC G]

Originally posted by Shocko
I am entitled to my oppinions, as you are entitled to yours.

Doesn't mean people won't say they're a pile of shite though.....

 

[~Lazarus~]

Originally posted by Shocko

What utter bullshit you spew. Islamic society was the most advanced in the world for along time, pushing forward science and tecnolodgy.

How many muslim clerics have you seen? I've never seen a cleric denouncing me as evil, and i've never met a muslim who had anything bad to say about my oppinions and beliefs. Admittedly, it's because i've met far more Christians, that i've gotten loads of shit from them about embracing the lord, etc, however you can allways tell the Jehovis Wittnesses where to go, innit.

Shocko,

Do you actually have a clue what the "islamic" or even Moslem religion or lifestyle is all about?

If you dont then stfu with the crap you spout

 

[Shocko]

Yes, actually. Go read some history books, because you obviously don't understand much about the past. At one point, Spain was ruled by the Moores(Muslims), and they were at the peak of development and culture.

Just because you don't know anything about history, doesn't give you the excuse to imply that i'm talking out my arse, when clearly, you know nothing.

 

[GDW]

Originally posted by Shocko
Yes, actually. Go read some history books, because you obviously don't understand much about the past. At one point, Spain was ruled by the Moores(Muslims),

] nothing.

sorry but that is incorrect

 

[mr.Blacky]

Originally posted by Grandadwrinkle



sorry but that is incorrect

no go read a book. It is true they didnt rule all of spain, just most of it.

 

[Shocko]

Wrong, it is entirely correct. A quick google search provides some information:
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/moors2.html

 

[exxxie]

Stazbumpa


you clearly have NOTHING to add to this argument but your own stupid, ignorant, racist, hateful FUCKING BULLSHIT. Your the type that throws stones at mosques or after a few beers on a Saturday thinks beating on a nigger/raghead/queer is a good laugh.


Fuck Off please.

 

[~Lazarus~]

Originally posted by Shocko
Yes, actually. Go read some history books, because you obviously don't understand much about the past. At one point, Spain was ruled by the Moores(Muslims), and they were at the peak of development and culture.

Just because you don't know anything about history, doesn't give you the excuse to imply that i'm talking out my arse, when clearly, you know nothing.

 

[Sir Frizz]

I thought in a modern world, people could negotiate their differences?

Big up pacifism.

 

[S-Gray]

Just watched the first part of 9/11 about the Firefighters... must have been shit scary for the Firefighters, just think, the first ones on the scene only went out to fix a Gas Leak, and a few minutes later they are in the middle of the biggest attack in America.

Was sad when the Chaplin died too

 

[bigbb]

I must admit that documentary was quite moving. I've been a bit sceptical of the American reaction to the event and we've all see anti-Americanism spike in the past year, but it was horrible. Not necessarily on an International level, or even a National level, but for the individuals there. It's not the first terrorist attack and will definately not be the last. Other parts of the world have suffered worse and indeed in our own history, but it is still a horrifying event when you see it in its rawest scene.

A good programme that, definately one for archives of history. I don't think any event of such significance has been observed in such graphic, first person detail.

 

[bodhi]

Originally posted by exxie
Stazbumpa


you clearly have NOTHING to add to this argument but your own stupid, ignorant, racist, hateful FUCKING BULLSHIT. Your the type that throws stones at mosques or after a few beers on a Saturday thinks beating on a nigger/raghead/queer is a good laugh.


Fuck Off please.

Get a fucking clue.

 

[legendario]

This thread is fuckin comical now.

Computer nerds pretending to know what they're talking about

 

[stu]

Given that the last 10 or so posts have degenerated into "you don't know what you're talking about" "no, you don't" "shut up" "you shut up", without most people actually presenting any fact to back it up...

Originally posted by Stazbumpa
<insert ignorance here>

If you're actually interested in learning something about Islam, Arab countries (they're not the same thing), etc, I can recommend an excellent piece: Gary Leupp's Ten Point Primer on Islam

In it are such revelations as:

1) Islam is essentially the same as Christianity and Judaism. Allah is the same as God is the same as Jehovah.

2) Islam itself is actually a peaceful and tolerant religion - it respects Jews and Christians, recognises them as "people of the book" (ie people who live by the word of God).

3) Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam - thinking that Islamic fundamentalists represent all of Islam is like thinking that the guys in Ireland blowing each other up represent all of Christianity.

4) The vast majority of Islamic countries actually admire and respect Western culture.

If you're not, fair enough, but don't expect anyone to pay any attention to your foamy-mouthed rantings in that case.

 

[~Lazarus~]

Geez stu,

never thot I would see my self type this.


Good Post.

 

[sabrex]

In all the horror it seems: The universe is working as it should be, whats really going to cook your noodles is that the cause ie a)death caused b)to suffer grief but then learning to appreciate life or whatever but ultimately learning something they needed to learn in this lifetime ready for the next *this includes knock on effect of all involved. Even worse as it starts really cooking your noodles when you feel though killing is wrong it makes room as this world is over populated by humans already.

Mass death happened on large scale on the 11th sept - shocking and upsetting in the extreme but universe will move on , those that died will be back at some point learning something else. Like whoever started this thread was what ? trying to induce forum mass hesteria!! Whats worth remembering is life, it is short, love it and enjoy it - those that died and the event will be remembered as were those on the beaches of france.

 

[stu]

I have no clue what you just said

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

Originally posted by stu
I have no clue what you just said

Me either, BUT IT COOKED MY NOODLE MAN

 

[Trem]

I feel way out of my depth here but my opinions are as follows - I believe that terrorism is born out of poverty, and I believe that Muslim is not a bad religion it is manipulated by the terrorists to be something they want it to be.

 

[Summo]

Why is my brain hot?

 

[S-Gray]

You put the wrong Shampoo on your head again?

 

[~Lazarus~]

Originally posted by Summo
Why is my brain hot?

you have a brain! ?