See Hidden changes, please read

[Aeiedil]

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=46437503&start=46439226

would appreciate intelligent comments before the americans start flaming

 

[Trinilim]

It sounds reasonable on paper, but it's still a major nerf to archers.

I say make it an active RA useable once every 30 minutes.

 

[Aeiedil]

its not a nerf, the nerfings already been done

it should defo NOT be active. that is something i am never gonna change my mind on.

imo the way i describe on the page is the best modification that would be made to bring see hidden to a more acceptable level of uberness. keep in mind that it does cost 8 whole points just to see 2-3 extra classes from long range, where as TS is however many points for that active but you get to shoot

i also thing that TS should have timer reduced to 15-20 minutes, however i did not comment on that because i have never played an archer and i did not wish to start a thread based on assumptions that can be picked apart with further assumptions

 

[Sharp Thing]

Originally posted by Trinilim
It sounds reasonable on paper, but it's still a major nerf to archers.

I say make it an active RA useable once every 30 minutes.

its called true sight

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by Sharp Thing


its called true sight

feck, assassins get that too?

Read the thread please

 

[Archeon]

Fek that, the problem could be easily solved by removing all stealth and realm based skills that increase your detect rate (See hidden, detect hidden)

Just make it stealth lvl vs. stealth lvl with (as a ballpark figure) 25 units for the different in level.

E.g.

Archer has 20 stealth
Assasin has 30 stealth

Assasin will be able to see archer from 250 units away. working both ways so archers with high stealth have the same chance.

Also have it taking into account 50+

With non-stealth classes make it

Stealth lvl Vs. Actualy lvl/2 with somthing like a 10 unit per difference so in the same example you'd be able to see a stealther 100 units away. or beter yet, lower chances of non-stealthers seeing a stealther to very low regardless of level.


that way it would achieve a number of things.

1. Increase stealther desirability in RvR groups (Bet sombody would have a stealth-bot ) Possibly leading to a lower reliance on buffbots, possibly leading to the extermination of all buffbots? ii can dream

2. Un-nerf archers to a degree, afterall PBT makes it difficult for them anyway.


To all the people that whine, WHAT! no way archers are too powerful. Well assuming its not an archer trying to take a full group if sombody gets the jump on you then you should be at a dis-advantage.


Oh, and get rid of all the must-have active RA's. As far as i know i'm the only healer thats gotten the 100% instant heals, so why the hell should tanks get it for a few kills? its on a 30min timer? Ohhh, so you have to wait 10 more minutes than i do. thats what? once every other run in emain?

Actually i might not mind IP, purge, etc if they had a RR as a pre-quisite.

E.g. IP requires FA2+RR6

yeah, that would work quite well i think. not from the tanks point of view of course, now they'd actually have to work to aquire their god like RA's heaven forbid


Ok, i'm done

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Think the poster is talking complete crap about See Hidden.
It should go, assasins already have a greater chance to spot another stealthed character. See Hidden just takes the piss. TS is pretty useless, I still cannot solo assasins using it as a scout. Reason is... I cannot crit a stealthed character... smart thinking Mythic. Nor can I crit a character that is sprinting, also uter crap.

TS is 10 points, and each time I have to round up some friends to help. I do like that the SB's now sometimes wonder if I have TS active when I run straight at them....
It is like the "nerf" assasins got with 50% evade being capped... like I will ever hit them now.. most fights last 4 hits, and have 4 misses...
Only positive thing about the proposed see hidden formula is that higher stealth spec will get rewarded.
Regards, Glottis

 

[old.LandShark]

Well, if you're agreeing to the revisions suggested by the only guy to have posted so far, Aeie, then see hidden essentially becomes a boosted-up version of detect hidden that assassins actually have to pay 8 RA pts for. Seems an odd thing to want given the number of people (see alb rogue boards for a start) that want see hidden totally removed and detect hidden buffed up, which would give assassins a greater edge over people with lower stealth but would stop raping those of us with close to 50 effective stealth.
That said, what the hell do I care, next patch I need to respec 30stealth in order to avoid being a total gimp. Sigh.

 

[old.Saborion]

Cannot really see why that change would make any real change. Most assassins move around stealthed these days anyway? And if I see a stealth mincer/scout near amg, I do NOT jump them since I know at LEAST 1 infilt is standing right next to the mincer/scout. =)

 

[Sharp Thing]

Originally posted by Trinilim


feck, assassins get that too?

Read the thread please

oh NOW i see, they should make the exact same RA twice!!!!

 

[Gekul]

They should make it an augment detect hidden ability similar to the other augments. Costing 1,3,6 points for each new level etc. Each level increases the radius that you can see stealthed characters.
Before, an archer could shoot from range and hide with very little chance of detection and this was a problem. Completely negating a spec line with a realm ability seems harsh I agree, although archers still need to be easier to detect than they were before.

 

[Aeiedil]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
Think the poster is talking complete crap about See Hidden.
It should go, assasins already have a greater chance to spot another stealthed character. See Hidden just takes the piss. TS is pretty useless, I still cannot solo assasins using it as a scout. Reason is... I cannot crit a stealthed character... smart thinking Mythic. Nor can I crit a character that is sprinting, also uter crap.

TS is 10 points, and each time I have to round up some friends to help. I do like that the SB's now sometimes wonder if I have TS active when I run straight at them....
It is like the "nerf" assasins got with 50% evade being capped... like I will ever hit them now.. most fights last 4 hits, and have 4 misses...
Only positive thing about the proposed see hidden formula is that higher stealth spec will get rewarded.
Regards, Glottis

so youd rather have it as it used to be? stealthers impossible to find? before see hiddne the radius for me to see any level 50 stealther was nigh on 0, the extra range became minimal. your post is of vnboards standards

the point of the stealth is to reward higher stealth, as you have seen. the 50% evade was a nerf especially to shades (i was over 50% without dodger or dex/qui buffs)

i never see an archer running straight at me. the only time i worry is when i see an archer loading up when i can only see me and him on the screen. its those sorts of times i destealth and sprint away.

imo archers should be able to crit stealtehd chars under the same conditions as unstealthed

Well, if you're agreeing to the revisions suggested by the only guy to have posted so far, Aeie, then see hidden essentially becomes a boosted-up version of detect hidden that assassins actually have to pay 8 RA pts for. Seems an odd thing to want given the number of people (see alb rogue boards for a start) that want see hidden totally removed and detect hidden buffed up, which would give assassins a greater edge over people with lower stealth but would stop raping those of us with close to 50 effective stealth.
That said, what the hell do I care, next patch I need to respec 30stealth in order to avoid being a total gimp. Sigh.

i would be fine with detect hidden being buffed up significantly followed by the removal of see hidden, but then you would get archers complaning that assasins now got an effective see hidden for free. this way the assasins still have to pay for the ability.

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

I could agree with assasins having more chance to spot me, using an improved version of detect hidden, but at this moment, with 48 stealth (35 base +10+rr4) they still spot me when I move about with camo on. I feel that is a scout spends so many points in stealth, they should have the freedom to move about. It is not like stealth is autotrained on a scout/ranger/hunter, so that at lvl 50 they all have 50 base stealth. I have to give up longbow, shield, or slash/thrust for it.

The role of a scout has changed so much since Mythic introduced (p)bt. Scouts used to be overpowered, but with (p)bt now on mages, they are just utter idiots if they get killed by a scout.
Buffed, I will still miss a significant part of my shots, or fumble, with 1700 weaponskill with my longbow out....
See hidden is just taking the piss out of the archer class.
Mythic should admit it.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Repent Reloaded]

these new changes sound pritty fair. then again, not everyone is ever happy

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Aeiedil

i also thing that TS should have timer reduced to 15-20 minutes, however i did not comment on that because i have never played an archer and i did not wish to start a thread based on assumptions that can be picked apart with further assumptions

sure im up for nerfing SH, (dont have it, not many infils do...)

the pulsing idea + speed reducing 'range' is very good ideas.

But No way reducing TS timer , then i would for sure get SH just too annoy the 5 hunters there is in emain ...

 

[skile]

Originally posted by Repent
these new changes sound pritty fair. then again, not everyone is ever happy

Guess why the SB's are happy :\.

 

[old.Demeter]

right now i see more and more alb scouts with TS... and 90% of the time they are grouped with normal classes when TSing...

for example, yesterday (weirdest day) about 7 out of my 10 (or something) deaths in emain I got steamrolled by mach 5 speed groups with TS active.

remove TS and i will gladly respec of see hidden, SH is close to useless anyway...

what about clipping range issue - there is literally no chance to notice standing stealther from that range, if u dont play 1600x1200 and dont torture your eyes...

 

[Aeiedil]

<rubs eyes>

its bad enough trying to see them on 1024x768 demeter, but ofc the scouts know best that they show up a mile off

they only show up at clipping range if they are silly enuff to wear an emblem

 

[Tranquil-]

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=46475589&replies=54

 

[moo_work]

Originally posted by Trinilim
It sounds reasonable on paper, but it's still a major nerf to archers.

I say make it an active RA useable once every 30 minutes.

if its a big nerf to archers then its a gigantic nerf for minstrels

 

[Aeiedil]

i dont get how its a nerf atall. its a reduction of the effectiveness of see hidden at different speeds/specs and so surely things can only get better for stealth mincers/scouts

 

[bishibosh]

Originally posted by moo_work
if its a big nerf to archers then its a gigantic nerf for minstrels

mincers shoudnt rely on stealth anyway, i dont get why mincers spec like 13 in stealth or something..... why bother when they can mezz/speed to avoid fights, rather than use their stealth which is so gimpy low it can be seen by non detect classes a mile off and makes them crawl along with walking animation

 

[skile]

The higher stealth, the less time for reactivating camo (as archer). Minstrels should be added some sort of protection, not as much as archers tho, since they have it easier escaping.

 

[feinar]

If all stealth classes got protection against See Hidden in the future, it will be fully useless for asassins to use SH imho. Lets just remove this RA from game then, and i think archers and minies be happy then. But remember, we r assasins, we use stealth and all those stealth RAs for killing, not just for hiding from enemys like hobbits in famous book. Maybe we must have an advantage against other stealth classes, isnt it? As far as new patches coming, with those changes which u wanna see in it, assasins is no more looks like assasins. Just guy with stealth, identical with archers and minies. But minies for example have abilities that we dont have - they can avoid the fight and run away if smthing goes wrong. And we do not whinning about this, cause we are DIFFERENT, different chars. Or maybe u wanna play for some kind of unkillable "terminator"? Its wrong imho.
Sorry for my english, but i hope u can understand my point of view.

 

[skile]

Originally posted by feinar
If all stealth classes got protection against See Hidden in the future, it will be fully useless for asassins to use SH imho. Lets just remove this RA from game then, and i think archers and minies be happy then. But remember, we r assasins, we use stealth and all those stealth RAs for killing, not just for hiding from enemys like hobbits in famous book. Maybe we must have an advantage against other stealth classes, isnt it? As far as new patches coming, with those changes which u wanna see in it, assasins is no more looks like assasins. Just guy with stealth, identical with archers and minies. But minies for example have abilities that we dont have - they can avoid the fight and run away if smthing goes wrong. And we do not whinning about this, cause we are DIFFERENT, different chars. Or maybe u wanna play for some kind of unkillable "terminator"? Its wrong imho.
Sorry for my english, but i hope u can understand my point of view.

Archers are assasins too. What logics is it behind "Assasins" hunting down archer and can actually kill casters etc better than archers.

= Assasin > Archer, Caster
= Archer > Caster and gets owned by Assasin

Just doesn't make sence, assasins and archers should have equal chance on killing eachother, by game logics.

 

[Acies-Nex]

All this BULLSHIT about higher stealth get better things sucks!
think about Infils get 2-5x specc pts per lvl.. u must be mad thinking of giving someone with higher weap/stealth specc better things, that would mean infils will become uber.. they already got high stealth and high weapon specc why give them more advantage?

 

[Aeiedil]

acies, would you rather we have see hidden as it is? a ra with 1 spec that lets you see anyone regardless of stealth spec? if stealth spec was factored in it would give an advantage to an archer that wanted to spec in stealth

 

[Arrows]

Originally posted by Gekul
They should make it an augment detect hidden ability similar to the other augments. Costing 1,3,6 points for each new level etc. Each level increases the radius that you can see stealthed characters.
Before, an archer could shoot from range and hide with very little chance of detection and this was a problem. Completely negating a spec line with a realm ability seems harsh I agree, although archers still need to be easier to detect than they were before.

this sounds good

more comment on pros and cons of this one ....

btw aeiedil
can you post teh evade formula on BW for sneakers creepers ...?
if any one knows i htink youd be the one who would .... you seem very entish on this stuff

 

[Aeiedil]

Arrows i would love to, however its gotten pushed down my test list. here is the order at present.

-HP Formula (final checks/tweaking, Pin had a formula that was more accurate for base con above 50, still needs fine tuning)
-Weapskill Formula (not started yet)
-Base Cap Damage Formula (not started yet)
-Style Cap Damage Formula

These are first because they only need 1 test per setup each. After these are done I will get data for the damage variance and evade formulas, however for these I need a lot more information than I need for these And for this reason they will not be here for a while. For an estimate, a total of around 400 dex/qui will give about 20% boost to a level 50 assassin with evade 7 afaik, and it scales wrt base evade i suspect this is just a prediction however