Season 12 <> Season 13

I

iggy^

Guest
Again it seems to have been a successful season, of the 70 clans that started out, a good 67 have finished (up to now). As is usual at the end of the season I throw open the suggestions for the next season so that people can air some views about what they think we should be looking into before we start. Comments on rules etc are welcome as are of course map choices that we should be looking into during the close season. Here are just two of my own suggestions to get the ball rolling.

There have been a few "questionable" recruitments this season and also some that have come from people minutes or even seconds before they are due on server. This is something that I would like stopped so it would likely go to something like this rule
How long after registering does it take for players to become eligible?

Three days after registering the player becomes eligible to play for the clan in the league. In some cases an exception may be granted to this rule.


In order to stop the abuse of admins on server who give up their own private free time to keep a check on you lot, there might be a reason to implement the following. If would stop people being banned from the league and also gives you a point of reference for complaints as then there is no need to sit on a server calling the admins all the names under the sun, just grit your teeth and bear it and then get hold of me after the game.
I'm unhappy with one of your admins. What should I do?

If you have a complaint about an admin, you should contact me in private, either by /msg or mail and I will investigate your complaint. Please try to remember that our admins are often placed in difficult positions and may have to make tough decisions which will disadvantage one of the clans involved whatever they decide.

If you or your clan has a long-standing personal issue with a particular admin you should let me know of this before your game and I will try to ensure that the admin in question does not take your game.

Over to you... what other rules need to be considered?
 
P

pinkeye

Guest
Truly excellent season for me. Really enjoyed it and a big thanks to all the admins and organisers who have helped make it possible.


Cant wait til next season so bring it on!

With regards to rule changes perhaps the following might be effective in making it a fairer / friendlier league (although in the most part it is anyway)

Team chat only during games - to help prevent whining and moaning which only results in arguments. also aids the admin as he/she does not have to constantly tell people to shss..when they are bitching

Player Suitability - hard one this. Some teams are playing with players from higher divs which in my opinion goes against the principle of the competition. Perhaps a rule whereby during the season players can only recruit or be recuited from their division, the next division up or outside of the competition (players outside of the competition will be subject to head admin descision on whether they are suitable)

Final rule - no p0wning WosF next season in ctf and WosF to spawn with full armour and all guns in tdm :)

One final thank you to all the div 4 players who i have played against (if thats the right word) who have also made the season very enjoyable
 
F

fmczebedee

Guest
A 3 day delay before players become eligible is a good idea but it would create problems for the admins on the night unless players are tagged in some way on the teamlists, which would mean they would have to be untagged etc etc.. a lot of work I reckon. I think it would be better to have a deadline of Thursday for player additions for the following week. Any additions you receive after thursday then get added the following thursday.

Unless of course you were going to control who gets added to the teamlist when in which case the general admins will never know anyway :)

Grievances shouldn't be taken up with admins anyway as the their decision on the night is somewhat final until the matter is discussed for appeal with the head admin. I'm not sure taking the 'email your problem to the head admins route' will resolve the heat of the moment bitching on game nights. I just think the rules should be stiffened up and backed up with severe penalties and possibly even docking points for clans that are a complete pain in the arse :|

On another issue.. league servers tend to be shocking for me atm. BW servers have felt poor for me all season and I now find the savage servers to be even worse than they were last season. Given Bootlaces comments elsewhere regarding punkbuster i'd like to see a league night early on next season where pb isn't used to see what effect this has. We've tried net settings all season, why not ditch pb for a trial too. This can be done at random and largely in secret if necessary to avoid people trying to take advantage.
 
K

kierz

Guest
all in all a sucessfull and very enjoyable season for me, thanks to all the admins who helped out this season (and cost me to give up trying to admin games due to them all being taken 2/3hrs in advance:D).

on that point, is it possible that we could increase the size of the league, maybe add another division or two. We seem to have more than enough admins to cover, just depends if we have enough servers i would guess.

if we were going to change the structure of the league i would go for:
1 2a/b 3a/b 4a/b 5
maybe haveing div1/5 both have 12 clans.
i dont really see the point in haveing a 'c' i thought we had a/b so people could choose to play on either sunday or monday, and ive always been in favour of haveing more divisions than sections to a division (gives more competitive games).


i agree on haveing some sort of a control over when players can be added.

also testing out haveing pb turned off might be better to try between seasons in the server testing (usually week or so before season starts), but i know iggy wont like turning off pb now hes got a list of everyone whos played on the bw servers and their GUIDs (to stop aliasing).

oh and final thing, pleeeeeeeeeeeeease can we not wait 6 months for another season, another one starting before xmas would be nice but i know there would be probblems over this so maybe 3rd / 4th January, what do ya say ay, you know you want to:D
 
N

Nemesis*KR

Guest
The servers are suckage

I enjoyed the games and stuff, and also adminning but my one major annoyance is with the servers stuttering and jerking around all over the place. I think many people have problems with it but just dont air their view as I do, so if the servers are sorted and run smooth as they used to then it will be much better in Season 13

Just my 2 pence worth

Nemesis
 
W

W1lz0r

Guest
IMO

First of all I'd like to thank all admins and league organisators for making another fine season.

Next on the point of server performance. I really think PB is the source of the trouble. All players from my team (including me) have servere lag issues on the first 10-15 minutes of the game; then suddenly the problems disappear. It seems that PB is somehow loading or saving data causing the game to lag.
I see 2 solutions to these problem:
1) disable punkbuster
2) have ppl connect earlier until there connection settles (I think it is even possible to do this on a different server; as I myself had a pickup game on a PB enabled server with the same problems before our BW match and I did not have the issue on the BW server afterwards, but my teamies did).

Then on the rules;
Adding players to the list allways seem to give a big discussion. You could say there is a delay between notifying and adding them to the list. The problem with this is some teams might have urgent problems fielding enough players.
So I would propose a different a different rule; a player may only play for 1 team during the season. So if a team folds or a player wants to leave; he has to wait for next season to be part of a different team (maybe introduce 1 transfer point in the season around halfway or something). For players not participating in the league it is possible to be added any time (including on the match night; to solve urgent issues with teams not having enough players; however once on a playerlist that player cannot move to a different team because of the prior rule).

I hope I'm making sence here; if not lemme know and I'll try to refrace ;)
 
K

kierz

Guest
Re: IMO

Originally posted by W1lz0r
2) have ppl connect earlier until there connection settles (I think it is even possible to do this on a different server; as I myself had a pickup game on a PB enabled server with the same problems before our BW match and I did not have the issue on the BW server afterwards, but my teamies did).

all the more reason to have a warmup game:)
 
F

fmczebedee

Guest
I'm not sure how this server stuff works, i'm guessing that several games are played on the same server etc, but from what i've seen you can test as much as you like off season.. until you get x amount of people playing x amount of games on a server you will not get true league conditions. Alternatively apply the opposite settings to the BW bookable servers as everyone seems to get connex interrupted on those numerous times per map.

Btw.. I'd also go for a quick start to season 13. The new maps were excellent and the old maps ctf2 & especially w2 are still, well.. i'll keep it clean.. rubbish. So scrap ctf2 to follow a massive amount of people's wishes and if there must be a w2 map switch to the uC map instead. ;)

I'm tempted to withdraw that last smiley because it implies that I find topic of ctf2 & w2 somewhat jovially.. i don't.. they sux!
 
A

abc-jubjub

Guest
Thanks

First a big thanks to ALL the admins for running yet another great season (and also for match reviews, always look forward to them). Only downside (and I know youve heard it all before) but the servers did cause us a number of problems this season. Athough theres no easy fix I would like to see the league going to pay to play and perhaps getting rid of PB. ABC will be back for the next season, back to Div4 were we actually win occasionally (were like bloody yoyos, since season 2, up down up down, perhaps one day we will stay in Div3...lol). Also like to wish pb best of luck in Div 2 and congrats to Caps would pld well in Div3.

I really have enjoyed this season, (which is odd onsidering the hammering we took)
Thanks admins, Id buy you all a beer if I could! A lot of hard work for very little thanks.

Cheers Jubby
 
W

w-o-n

Guest
servers were fine, get used to the little bit of lag (omg lag ???!!! on internet lag !??!) maps are fine too learn to play it better ya schmuck.
 
W

W1lz0r

Guest
Originally posted by w-o-n
servers were fine, get used to the little bit of lag (omg lag ???!!! on internet lag !??!) maps are fine too learn to play it better ya schmuck.

What a nice comment. Really usefull...

The problem with the lag is, that it is probably not your connection, but PB related (or something completely different). But the issue here is that the lag disappears after 10/15 mins of play. There must be a plausible reason for this...
 
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fmczebedee

Guest
Won is probably one of the warpers that noone can hit so no big surprise that he finds the situation to his liking. High pingers that have 'LAG' on their side of things can learn to play with this and as you can see week in, week out their accuracy stats are uneffected. However one persons lag is invariably seen by their oponents as 'WARP' and when they warp during the spells when they disappear only to appear again in an unknown place they can't be hit or alternatively when they are visible you fire and the hit doesn't register because they have warped off somewhere else. So who really has the disadvantage?

I could name name several clans that I have played recently where practically every player has warped, be that the servers, some connection problems or them running kazaa while their dads download g0atpr0n. I don't know the cause but it's getting seriously daft.

As for '(omg lag ???!!! on internet lag !??!)' - the truth is that servers are let's say 5 times faster than they were when people started to play quake online seriously.. the majority of players connections are also 10 times faster and their machine are probably about 5 times faster too on the whole. So why is it that this problem has become noticeably worse across the board?
 
N

Nemesis*KR

Guest
Regarding the Servers...

As an admin, I have seen a number of person(s) in different clans (All divisions) having the same issues with the League servers, and agree with Zeb and others that it would be great to have pb turned off, maybe not to everyones liking because of the obvious threat of cheaters taking advantage of this.

Having suffered myself during 90% of my own teams matches with severe "Yellow Mountain spikes" (Packet loss ??) on my netgraf which occured during every single 1v1 battle I encountered in-game and also having problems moving around the map and generally ruining my game flow I would ask that this idea of removing PB for a trial is realised and that we can try playing quake "The way it's Meant to be played" (© 2003 NVIDIA).

Cheaters are pretty much obvious nowadays and us admins can spot em a mile off, so I think with the participating clans we have, I think 'NONE' of them would cheat anyways, punkbuster could and should be turned off and maybe we will have much happier and pleasant games without the whining about "lag" "warp-cheater" etc and see how it goes.

Thx for your time

uc-Nemesis
BW CTF Administrator
 
Z

[ZLP]-ArMa

Guest
About eligibilty

Savage system is good i think, a new player has to be put in the roaster of the team via the site of the league and the site deals with the rule of one week eligibility.

So admin just has to check the site before the game to know if a player is eligible to play. If not on the roaster, he cant play.

For the rest, this season was surely better in terms of connection than last one. We thought about dropping bw after last season but i guess we'll be here for season 13.

Too bad we had to experiment differents settings through the first weeks. Kind of a lottery sometimes :)

And if we had to change something, it's about the coach. I think it should be forbiden. In the Q3CTFLR (french league), first season was played with a coach allowed and even for franco-french games on french servers, servers were often laggy (but were not for trainings or pickup games). Then for season 2, coach was forbiden and the situation did improve a lot. It may be related to mutliview coach which are pumping the servers. As a french player, usually encouting connections problems playing on bw, i think BW should try a season without coach.

About PB, i can tell you we've been playing french leagues without it for 2 seasons, and i've never heard of any case of aliasing or cheating (i mean not more than before pb came out). Of course, there always will be some stupidos to cheat, but even PB cant prevent cheating or alias at 100 % (if you want to alias just go to a net cafe, no one can prove anything :)) So why not turning it off and make a test ?

Oh and i forgot, DONT DROP CTF2, french clans already have serious disadvantage with their sucky connections, that you can not drop OUR map :).

For those not liking ctf2, just a piece of advice : learn how to trick out with the flag :))
 
F

fh|killy

Guest
Well done on the league, the servers were good this season. One thing which occurred to me on a few occasions was the issue of playing games 4v5... aside from this being a pointless waste of time it messes up the table and gives undeserved cap differences to clans that play 5v4. I would think that the rule should be amended to say that if the other team only have 4 players, you must play either 4v4 or take a default win.


I have sometimes noticed lag when coaches join, it is definitely the case that when a coach is using multiview to coach a team of ISDN players (or French people too probably) that it lags them significantly. But I think the situation may also occur when the opposing team has a coach (using multiview maybe). I thought only FH would have suffered from this since we had a team of 5 ISDNers about every game last season but if French clans also have to deal with it then it is just another disadvantage for the clans with poor connects. I don't expect it to be changed since some clans rely on coaches so much but since it has been proposed I felt compelled to second it ;)

I agree that punkbuster only serves to make the servers worse. I know that it doesn't prevent all cheats, so players who got away with cheating before punkbuster was introduced can still do so if they want to. With or without pb, cheats in league I think are very rare, but everyone has to deal with the choppy pb lag which is a nightmare sometimes, and in a worst case scenario I would much prefer to play against a team with a player wallhacking one game per season in exchange for smoother gameplay.

Regarding admins, I can see that you want to get rid of abuse on the servers, but my bad experiences with admins in any leagues have not been as a result of their decisions, but their attitudes. If an admin makes a decision which I think is wrong, then I might go through with the procedure and appeal to the head-admin but I really wouldn't care if the decision wasn't overturned. However, if the admin were to stoop to an unprofessional level and insult me personally then I would expect to be allowed to stand up for myself on the server and speak my mind. 90% of BW admins are fine, but there are always a few who are similar to the Savage admins discussed in Richyboy's column on QN, so please take this into account when you are resolving a situation.

drop cp22 :>
 
C

Chameleon

Guest
Personally I think ditch PB. We already use osp, which did the job before and will continue to. PB can be a great thing to have on public servers with rare or totally absent public admins, but on admin run leagues games? It's just not needed!
Oh and keep ctf2, it's still the best ctf map made :)
 
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Nemesis*KR

Guest
Agreed totally Cham

I agree that because BW is well run and always has admins present for matches PB is really not needed, but for public servers and un-attended ones yes there may need to be a deterrant in place like PB :)

Quake 3 is getting on a bit and people whom I know anyway love to have a bash at playing CTF and would never think about or consider cheating as OSP already had some anti-cheat coding, PB I beleive does add to the lag and cause a lot of jerking and warping even on a low ping 30-40, for about 15 mins.

So with this in mind I would urge the Head Admins (You know who you are) :pP to consider removing PB for a season and see how well it plays and how much better people feel after a game of no PB-Lag Q3 (Wee back in the day).

Also the issue of playing 5v4 should be addressed as Killy rightly pointed out, it gives some ridiculous Cap difference and also ruins the tables so they are not as accurate as we would hope, so if we could devise a system whereby a player who is new to a team should have to wait a few days (or a week) before they are elligible to play this would suit a lot of people better :)
 
I

iggy^

Guest
Originally posted by fh|killy
Regarding admins, I can see that you want to get rid of abuse on the servers, but my bad experiences with admins in any leagues have not been as a result of their decisions, but their attitudes. If an admin makes a decision which I think is wrong, then I might go through with the procedure and appeal to the head-admin but I really wouldn't care if the decision wasn't overturned. However, if the admin were to stoop to an unprofessional level and insult me personally then I would expect to be allowed to stand up for myself on the server and speak my mind. 90% of BW admins are fine, but there are always a few who are similar to the Savage admins discussed in Richyboy's column on QN, so please take this into account when you are resolving a situation.

The idea is to remove all the bickering on the server. It gets into the he/she said and he/she said and ... etc, you get my point. Best is a condump, better still a demo and let me know if there is any people that you could potentially have a problem with.
 
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pallys

Guest
Firstly u must keep map CTF2 as its an excellent map and an original map at that, get CTF3 in there too, is a great team map :) and salute id :>
id take W5 out not a proper ctf map, and replace it with CP18, cp22 could also go for......CTF3

and pb MUST BE KEPT!!, just think of the things the whining etc that would go on if this was turned off, it'd create more problems that it would solve not to mention players using wallhacks which even when specced players can fool u to thin kthey not using it fully well knowing what thyere doing. and then on the aim side of things i dunno if its possible but maybe some players would then start binding these aim things to on and off keys so it switches as u please and only used when fekking desperate ie deffers losing the flag etc, and how many times does a deffer get specced ?

sure servers arent as good as they cud be without pb, but its the same for every1, and really its not that bad as some make out, whereas if u took pb off u wudnt have a level playing field imho.

i wouldnt start bw at around xmas time, wait till jan but then u also get peeps in exams so prolly last week of jan start ? i dunno maybe u can get poll on this.
 
K

kierz

Guest
i think your being a bit harsh on us there pallys, i think most players are grown up enough not to cheat, iirc before pb there was only a few players that were actually cheating and they all got banned, so the probblem was pretty much sorted before punkbuster was introduced.

i would love for pb to be turned off as ive played on 1.32 servers without pb on and they are infinately smoother, but i can see how pb is a good thing, it does a lot more than just stop cheaters...

i really think we should maybe trial the servers without pb on, maybe have a cup between now and xmas without pb on any of the servers...

actually pb or no pb please have an xmas cup \o/
 

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