SB game mechanics

[Thornea]

Ive been level 50 now for several months (SB - My 1st level 50) and an interested in how the following work (and how I should spec with advise from fellow SBs)...

(My spec = 44 LA, 44 Axe, 36 Stealth, 32 Evenom and 10 Crit RR3L9, Fully SC'd gear (all 99%) maxed stats, HP's, Skills and most resists high, Ablaitive procs on all armour, DOT on mainhand and DD on offhand, Aug Con 1, Aug Dex 2, Aug Quick 2, Purge, Dodger 2, MOP2)

WEAPONS...

Ever since I can remember ive been using cleaver in mainhand and Hand axe in offhand (Spd 4.0 and 2.4). Thing is hand axe is a lvl 46 weapon (dps 15.0) should I be using a 16.5 dps weapon instead of Hand Axe?? (Ive been trying out a TG Ancient Icebound Axe recently instead of Hand Axe, but at spd 3.2 is this bad? Should it be used mainhand)


HASTE...

How exactly does this work?? I have a Healer BB with haste (16) and also the Ancient Icebound Axe procs haste too. I understand theres a Haste cap? and how does Weapon spd effect it? Also with capped quick I do less dmg but quicker yeah?

STYLES...

I open with Backstab 2 (for stun), then Snowsquall and icyBrillinace (for bleed both LA styles) <-- When I can pull off rear attacks.
Then I go into Comeback/doublefrost (and go Frosty Gaze when I evade for Stun again).
Doublefrost (after nerf) now uses tons of End and does lower dmg than it used to. Im looking for a reliable alternative to it that dosent sap all my End away hehe.. Was thinking Pillager then Raider (Bleed) instead (Both Axe Styles) whats your guys view on this?


STEALTH...

Am I right in saying movement speed whilst stealthed is based on your current stealth level?? If this is right, is it based on base stealth (i.e. mines 36) or full stealth with all plusses (RR, SCing etc)?
(Because at higher RR's im gonna drop Stealth and envenom to up Axe/LA for more WS, and dont wanna be moving like a snail)

ARMOUR PROCS..

Is it worth putting a Haste or AC buffer proc on some of my armour pieces instead of going 100% ablaitive??


SEE HIDDEN REALM ABILITY

Is it worth having this ability?? I know the range was recently nerfed.


Anyway.. Thanks in advance for any help..

 

[Haldar]

1. u may try to use Gazsi's Bearded Axe as offhand (16.2 dps 2.4 spd +30hp 2*10% resist), this is quest reward from Ancestral Secrets. Or u may use Weighted Bearded Axe (16.5, 2.9) and customize its SC as u want. 1st option is preferable due to a bit higher damage via self-haste effect. Most TG axes arent that good due to middle spd they have.

2. Ur swing speed is the average between speeds of weapons, then it is further modified by ur QUI and Hatse accordin' to formula:
spdnew = spdold * (1- (qui-60)/500)* (1-haste%)
afaik various haste sources are added in this equation...but bear in mind that u have a swing delay cap of 1.5 sec.

3. Good almost anytime style is Hawok, 0.75 growth, 29 axe, front-postitonal. U can also use Glacial movement (0.78 growth 39 axe) at side of taret. As an anytime u may use Plague (0.60, 6 axe) instead of Pillager-Raider combo, as damage and end cost is same and def penalty is not that awful. As for back attacks, BS2-SS-IB is good but u are losing stun from Comeback-FG this way.

4. stealth speed is governed by modified stealth -- base+ietms+RR

5. i went all ablative way and i dont regret it. my weapons are fast enough to live without haste, i use AF charges constantly as i am able to recharge items myself, and re-dot procs are great, but they may get resisted.

6. I am RR6 and i have dropped it with last patch, tho i may take it later -- to avoid stealth zergs of albion. u will see uncamuflated archers and mincers at 900-1200 range (depends of their stealth) as opposed to 2700 before.

 

[jox]

Gazsi's procs damage-shield :/

I rather use weighted because;
A bit slower attackspeed makes it easier to pull of frosty.
Its better to kill a infil with 7 swings then 8(lesser chance to get dragonfanged). The difference aint 7 versus 8, but you understand then principle, every swing against an infil is a risk. Thats why shadowzerkers was so powerful against infiltrators pre 1.62, you could sink them with 3-4 swings. Now it takes at least 7-8, in other words, the chance/risk to get dragonfanged have almost doubled.

And remember, quickness have a hard-cap at 250, everything above it is useless. And about haste; I dont have a hastebot myself but when I have been hasted by friends I cant say I rock more in rvr, the hastebuff seems to be a bit overerestimated. But you should at least have 250 in quickness.

Styles; I am a sz at the moment, but the tragic fact is that Ztyx(who is 5-spec) does almost the same damage with garrote/achilles as I do with doublefrost :/ Ztyx have also tried havoc/tyr's fury and think they stinks comparing to cs-styles, especially when you know that you also give up pa, cd and ss to get them. And all these growth-rates for styles that people are talking about doesnt seem to be accurate, at all. I think its better that you test styles with your current spec on your bb and make a judgement yourself.
I will fall back to 5-spec when I lay my hands on a respec-stone.

I have AC-buffer on 2 parts and its ok.

I still have see hidden and its still a great tool to avoid zergs, and the range is 700-800, but I would gladly reinvest my rps, if Mythic implements anything worth buying.

 

[Haldar]

i have exactly 250 qui -- norse (50), 0 qui at creation, +23 from lvl, last spec buff from shammie with MotA 3 (+93), +72 on item, aug qui 2.

and new SH range is
(900 + 36*(seeker's level - hider's stealth level)) -- see old Scout TL's (Oakleif) tests on it

btw, Jox, u may fall back to 5-spec rather safely -- u are RR9 at low RRs it is better to be SZ imo.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by jox
A bit slower attackspeed makes it easier to pull of frosty.
Its better to kill a infil with 7 swings then 8(lesser chance to get dragonfanged). The difference aint 7 versus 8, but you understand then principle, every swing against an infil is a risk. Thats why shadowzerkers was so powerful against infiltrators pre 1.62, you could sink them with 3-4 swings. Now it takes at least 7-8, in other words, the chance/risk to get dragonfanged have almost doubled.

Statistically there is absolutely no difference in the chance to get dragonfanged whether you swing 4 times or 8 times (or any other number) in a given amount of time.

e.g. if the inf has a 50% evade rate against you and you swing 4 times in 16seconds, on average he'll evade 2 of those swings and you'll be vulnerable to DF for 8sec of those 16.
If you swing 8 times in those 16sec, on average he'll evade 4 of them and you'll be vulnerable for 8sec of the 16.


The only change is that you used to do those 4 swings and kill him in 8sec so on average be vulnerable for 4sec, now you need 8 swings in 16sec, so you're vulnerable for twice the amount of time.


Bottomline is use weapons which do the most damage (which usually means has the biggest haste effect).

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Hroft[BC]
btw, Jox, u may fall back to 5-spec rather safely -- u are RR9 at low RRs it is better to be SZ imo.

Well, at RR9 I'd probably go 31st, 44weap, 44LA, 34CS, 18env (with 0 autotrain).

Soulblade, but with 37env (the 2nd str/con) for RR9 - higher if autotrained.

 

[jox]

Originally posted by Pin
so you're vulnerable for twice the amount of time.

Couldnt agree more

Originally posted by Pin
Well, at RR9 I'd probably go 31st, 44weap, 44LA, 34CS, 18env (with 0 autotrain).

Soulblade, but with 37env (the 2nd str/con) for RR9 - higher if autotrained.

Hm, interesting, thats Exercias spec.

But Poison 37 instead of 50?

DoT -21/tick

Enerv -27 str/con

And much more resists.

My experience is that every skill below 50 is twice as vauleable to raise as skills that already reached 50+.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by jox
But Poison 37 instead of 50?

DoT -21/tick

Enerv -27 str/con

And much more resists.

My experience is that every skill below 50 is twice as vauleable to raise as skills that already reached 50+.

You'll have 5% higher resist rate on poisons and lose ~20% on the value of str/con, but gain PA->CD.

Dot damage is crap in the world of resists, you lose more like 16/tick or 100 damage over 24s.


Or maybe drop to 43sword (44style is useless for you anyway) and get 21env.

 

[Haldar]

imo last debuff 4 teh win..but this is up to u.

 

[Silenzio]

friend ov mine repecced nearly like that yesterday...

soulblade is a nice toy... lot ov tools n every line have good damage...

ull lose greater enervating... but the lvl 37 str/con debuff is still good...


only thing that make me doubtfull is no 50 weaponspecc...
but im a maniak on that so not rlly important...

good specc good viability..

 

[Carlos Bananos]

imo, with the situation with debuffs (our WS is debuffed 2x as much as infs/ns thrustspec) SBs should really push for as much weaponspec as they can, and the 47 debuff.

i dont think i could manage without the debuff

 

[Negura]

"I open with Backstab 2 (for stun), then Snowsquall and icyBrillinace (for bleed both LA styles) <-- When I can pull off rear attacks.
Then I go into Comeback/doublefrost (and go Frosty Gaze when I evade for Stun again)."

Stun again? After immunity timer maybe...

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Pin
Statistically there is absolutely no difference in the chance to get dragonfanged whether you swing 4 times or 8 times (or any other number) in a given amount of time.

I dunno where your going with this m8, cuz the more swings you make the higher the probability of getting that _st1_ evaded in. It's like rolling 8d10 dice > 4d10 for a 1. If you go infinite, yes it stays the same I agree. Thats why you see ppl complaining that evade is not capped at 50%, cuz somtimes you evede 6 out of 7, but if you had gone infinite it will allways end up with 50%.

Originally posted by Pin
e.g. if the inf has a 50% evade rate against you and you swing 4 times in 16seconds, on average he'll evade 2 of those swings and you'll be vulnerable to DF for 8sec of those 16.
If you swing 8 times in those 16sec, on average he'll evade 4 of them and you'll be vulnerable for 8sec of the 16.

I don't think you hit the 50% evade vs buffed SB. I have Dodger II, 250qui and 314dex and only vs unbuffed low RR1-3 do I get the feeling I cap my chance for evade.

I think you are mixing the cards a bit (imho), cuz you only need that _1st_ evade, thus you will have a higher chance getting that evade with 8 vs 4 ---> /pointing to my dice rolling example...get the idea?

Originally posted by Pin

The only change is that you used to do those 4 swings and kill him in 8sec so on average be vulnerable for 4sec, now you need 8 swings in 16sec, so you're vulnerable for twice the amount of time.

Your more or less saying the chance of getting will be higher

Originally posted by Pin

Bottomline is use weapons which do the most damage (which usually means has the biggest haste effect).

...I'll stick to my cleaver+wbt thank you

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Runolaz
I dunno where your going with this m8, cuz the more swings you make the higher the probability of getting that _st1_ evaded in. It's like rolling 8d10 dice > 4d10 for a 1. If you go infinite, yes it stays the same I agree. Thats why you see ppl complaining that evade is not capped at 50%, cuz somtimes you evede 6 out of 7, but if you had gone infinite it will allways end up with 50%.

the 50% evade rate is per swing, not per fight.

its basically saying u have the same chance to evade, as u do to 'not evade', evading 6/7 is simply luck with the games ever-so-infamous random number generator.

Originally posted by Runolaz
I don't think you hit the 50% evade vs buffed SB. I have Dodger II, 250qui and 314dex and only vs unbuffed low RR1-3 do I get the feeling I cap my chance for evade.

both sb an inf will hit the evade cap, but once they fight each other the inf will be at evade cap, but the SB prolly wont, due to the WS disparity when debuffed (since WS seems to be the largest factor in evade rate)

 

[Sajko]

so im a bit n00b on sb, why do ours get lower WS when debuffed with the same debuff as inf's got?

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Sajko
so im a bit n00b on sb, why do ours get lower WS when debuffed with the same debuff as inf's got?

With thrust its str/dex thats affect wpnskill and with slash its only str thats why we get hurt more by debuff.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
the 50% evade rate is per swing, not per fight.

its basically saying u have the same chance to evade, as u do to 'not evade', evading 6/7 is simply luck with the games ever-so-infamous random number generator.

Read it again...that is what I said . It's 50% is pr. swing, but it is still possible to evade 6 out of 7 leading to ppl say "no it not capped at 50%, cuz assassin XX evaded me 6 out of 7 etc" . That is why luck plays a part in a limited number of swings, but if you go infinite there is no "luck". Witch leads us back to the 8 swings vs 4 swings for evade.

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos

both sb an inf will hit the evade cap, but once they fight each other the inf will be at evade cap, but the SB prolly wont, due to the WS disparity when debuffed (since WS seems to be the largest factor in evade rate)

Yes, they will both hit evade cap, but evade is also mesured up against your opponents stats etc. Facing a buffed Inf or armsman, I can tell you I'm not hitting that cap with my stats. Look in grab bag for more info on this - if you missed out on it . I don't think the debuffed Inf is at cap either, but higher than a SB cuz of the debuff yes.

None knows the evade formula other than adding up your % b4 modifaction.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Runolaz
I dunno where your going with this m8, cuz the more swings you make the higher the probability of getting that _st1_ evaded in. It's like rolling 8d10 dice > 4d10 for a 1. If you go infinite, yes it stays the same I agree. Thats why you see ppl complaining that evade is not capped at 50%, cuz somtimes you evede 6 out of 7, but if you had gone infinite it will allways end up with 50%.

Firstly, it's not just waiting for him to get the 1st evade, as he has to hit you back.

And secondly, if you swing slower, he has more chances to hit you back per evade.


What matters is killing him in the shortest amount of time, not giving him the lowest number of swings to evade.

Originally posted by Runolaz
I don't think you hit the 50% evade vs buffed SB. I have Dodger II, 250qui and 314dex and only vs unbuffed low RR1-3 do I get the feeling I cap my chance for evade.

Doesn't matter if he does, it was just an number for the example.

Originally posted by Runolaz
Your more or less saying the chance of getting will be higher

Read again.

Of course the Inf has more chance to land DF in a fight now, as it takes longer for you to kill him, therefore there's more time that you are vulnerable.

Originally posted by Runolaz
...I'll stick to my cleaver+wbt thank you

As I said, use whatever does X amount of damage in the shortest amount of time.

The problem is that this is not going to be a fixed set of weapons, and will change depending on who you are fighting.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
both sb an inf will hit the evade cap, but once they fight each other the inf will be at evade cap, but the SB prolly wont, due to the WS disparity when debuffed (since WS seems to be the largest factor in evade rate)

not quite. the debuff is str/con. It is impossible for that to reduce anyone's evade rate when it lands.

If the inf and SB are at evade cap when fighting each other before debuffs, they will both be at cap after debuffs.


In reality, (unless they have dodger) they aren't at evade cap against each other before debuffs, but after them the Inf's evade rate increases more than the SBs.

 

[jox]

Hm, yes, proffessor Pin is right, as usual.

:wall:

With slower weapons the infil even get a second chance to land df from time to time.

So the good things with slower weapons are;

the first swing

its easier to land frosty

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by jox
So the good things with slower weapons are;

the first swing

its easier to land frosty

Using slower weapons doesn't make it easier for you to land frosty either, it's the same argument.

As for the first swing... Well, I assume you always use a big, slow weapon mainhand, and it's just the offhand speed you are debating? In that case, the difference in damage is maybe 50 offhand damage on the first swing? Hardly any difference in front-loading for 20% difference in swing-speed.

As I see it, the only advantage using 2 slow weapons is if you run fully buffed and with top Healer haste, so using a fast offhand would mean you were capped.



But anyway, it doesn't really matter, you'll still occasionally lose fights against a RR2 noob spamming the DF button. Just like Albs/Hibs did to RR2 noob SZs spamming the DF button a couple of months ago

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Pin
not quite. the debuff is str/con. It is impossible for that to reduce anyone's evade rate when it lands.

If the inf and SB are at evade cap when fighting each other before debuffs, they will both be at cap after debuffs.

In reality, (unless they have dodger) they aren't at evade cap against each other before debuffs, but after them the Inf's evade rate increases more than the SBs.

I'm quite possitive that I will not hit cap on evade debuffed vs a debuffed InF. I simply evade too little to have a 50% chance, and thats with dodger II as I mentioned above. The modifiers value is not know in the evada formula, thus its is hard to tell when you hit _cap_ in actual combat vs a buffed target. I evade more vs unbuffed opponenst than buffed ones leading me to belive that I'm not at cap (50%) with regards to evade whan facing a buffed target using styles.

 

[Silenzio]

i evade more without my sc armour...

but is pretty a suicide...

 

[sethnaket]

Originally posted by Pin
As I see it, the only advantage using 2 slow weapons is if you run fully buffed and with top Healer haste, so using a fast offhand would mean you were capped.

Keep in mind that endurance per style is the same when you LA-haste so you'll go ooe faster. Say your doublebladed mainhand does 100 per hit, handaxe offhand 50 per hit and style 50 per hit and you can do 7 styles before ooe (dblfrost/garrote), that's a total of 1400 dmg before you go ooe. Rest of the fight you'll be fighting ooe where the offhand-haste doesn't make any difference on dps. Another way to look at it is, you only get a certain ammount of styledmg for your endurance bar and it doesn't change depending on how much you offhand-haste.

For instance if you replace the 2.4 15dps axe with a wba, you might get 75 dmg per offhand, giving you 225 per round. So you can do 1575 dmg before you go ooe instead. It will only take about half a second more time to do those 7 swings(250qui+haste, swing speeds become ~1.7s vs ~1.8s) and you'll be doing better unstyled dps afterwards due to 16.5dps offhand.

Before LA nerf when you could kill in 5 swings and a lot of the time end wasn't an issue, hand axe was a given for offhand - I wouldn't be so sure about that anymore.