Say goodbye to freedom of speech

[crispy]

No you are the one using war as a reason for religion to be removed, not me
I just showed up the folly in your argument by using democracy as an example, if you want to take that approach to one thing why not with everything else?
After all if you want to ignore the benefits of religion you should equally ignore the benefits of a democracy

My point is that both democracy and religion are individually responsible for different wars, although neither should be. I would like to get rid of democracy also, but there seems to be no viable alternative. However, there is a viable alternative to religion. No religion. We dont need it! You argue that we should keep religion as something else will just take its place. You might be right, but then we can at least hope for something that doesnt bring war, terror and persecution of other beliefs...

Neither, it would be the same as it is now

You can only argue this if you say that if we remove religion something just as bad will take its place... You realize that much terror in this world is due to religious beliefs correct? Would we be in Afghanistan if it was not for ultimately religious reasons? Would it be easier to find a solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict if they didnt have to worry about religious reasons also (Jerusalem is a very popular city for example). How about northern Ireland? Ethnic cleanings would have one less factor to select people by.

Probably less, but who's to say
Would there be less understanding, empathy and charity for those less fortunate? Absolutely (red cross, islamic relief etc etc...)

What the hell? Do you think human compassion disappears with religion? I beg to differ. I feel VERY compassionate, but I am not religious. How is that? And please show me HOW understanding and empathy is helped by religion? If anything it inhibits it.

Im going out now, laters.

 

[Chronictank]

My point is that both democracy and religion are individually responsible for different wars, although neither should be. I would like to get rid of democracy also, but there seems to be no viable alternative.

And equally any subsequent creation will be used for the same thing, it doesnt make a difference

However, there is a viable alternative to religion. No religion. We dont need it!

YOU don't need it, others beg to differ

You realize that much terror in this world is due to religious beliefs correct? Would we be in Afghanistan if it was not for ultimately religious reasons? Would it be easier to find a solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict if they didnt have to worry about religious reasons also (Jerusalem is a very popular city for example). How about northern Ireland? Ethnic cleanings would have one less factor to select people by.

Do you realise how little religion has to do with the real reasons behind those conflicts?
Most of which are fights over land, resources and influence
Hell the crusades had more to do with kings getting rid of their relatives and winning influence than it did with any religious mission

What the hell? Do you think human compassion disappears with religion? I beg to differ. I feel VERY compassionate, but I am not religious. How is that? And please show me HOW understanding and empathy is helped by religion? If anything it inhibits it.

I didnt say that, however people have an awful lot less of it without something prodding them along.
Do you really think all that charity from collections in churches, mosques, synagogues etc.. would exist in the same quantities if they didnt congregate in such places?
Not to mention the various relief and aid agencies around the world

Like it or not, the same thing that helps people bring people under than same banner in war also helps them in humanitarian work which is a damn sight more than most people do

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Chronic is partially right.

Wars are never really fought over religion.

99% of the time, someone in power wants someone else's resources / influence and uses religion as a unifying commonality amongst their native population.

Like anything else in todays world - image and perception is everything. It's just another form of statecraft / speechcraft.

A population who has a common perceived enemy will support a leader who fights said enemy.

Religion was very, very widespread (almost universal) at one point in history in that everyone was religious. Ergo this was a useful tool to engender popular support from the masses.

Bush used a similar tactic (although not calling on his religion) in the wake ot 2001. Alter the perception of the enemy to your advantage to engender popular support.

 

[Gorbachioo]

So is democracy, yet i don't see you condeming it
There have been countless lifes lost over it, and are still lost over it
Be it through sanctions, war or not so legitimate methods

I could create exactly the same argument you are creating about religion but use democracy or even capitalism as the tool instead, the same "narrow-mindedness and so on"
You only have to read this forum a small subset of the democratic world to see how short sighted people really are when it comes to accepting other peoples way of life if it differs by so much as a fraction to their own.

End of the day it is and will always be about power, wealth and influence if it isn't religion it will be something else used as a catalyst to unite enough people for a common cause. I have yet to see one argument here to change my mind, so either the anti-religion lobby is doing a poor job of putting their argument forth or it is not as clear cut as some like to pretend it to be

Ideologies do a good job at it too, but religion is worse because ideologies aim to improve our quality of life in this life whereas religions focus on the afterlife --> you cant really rationalize genocide or in the name of democracy but you can rationalize it if you believe that this life is just a passage to the afterlife. Second of all, fighting for religion gives you a personal reward - a ticket to heaven - whereas fighting for democracy is just "helping" others.

And you didnt answer my second point: Religion causes conflict and bigotry on its own because every decent person will try to convert others if he believes that they will suffer in hell forever if he doesnt. Democracy might have a similar effect but a lesser one because a religious person can justify all means to convert his victim because in the end he will benefit because he'll get to go to heaven whereas spreading democracy can only be justified if it gives more to the victims than the process takes away from them. (For example, many people believe that 500 thousand dead is an acceptable price for democracy in Iraq, but i doubt that they would think so if that number was 5 million. This is just an example, im not defending or criticizing this view)

 

[Zede]

Ideologies do a good job at it too, but religion is worse because ideologies aim to improve our quality of life in this life whereas religions focus on the afterlife --> you cant really rationalize genocide or in the name of democracy but you can rationalize it if you believe that this life is just a passage to the afterlife. Second of all, fighting for religion gives you a personal reward - a ticket to heaven - whereas fighting for democracy is just "helping" others.

And you didnt answer my second point: Religion causes conflict and bigotry on its own because every decent person will try to convert others if he believes that they will suffer in hell forever if he doesnt. Democracy might have a similar effect but a lesser one because a religious person can justify all means to convert his victim because in the end he will benefit because he'll get to go to heaven whereas spreading democracy can only be justified if it gives more to the victims than the process takes away from them. (For example, many people believe that 500 thousand dead is an acceptable price for democracy in Iraq, but i doubt that they would think so if that number was 5 million. This is just an example, im not defending or criticizing this view)

The vast majority of religious folks are not interested in converting anybody, to say other wise just shows how paranoid you are, sorry Ive had BBQs with right wing christians, played frisbee & smoked weed with 100s of fresh out of Gaza Jews, prayed with Hordes of Muslims...none have been even slightly interested in converting me, but then again thats just my experience

 

[Gorbachioo]

The vast majority of religious folks are not interested in converting anybody, to say other wise just shows how paranoid you are, sorry

Thats because the vast majority of religious people are not really that religious. Fundamentalists will always try to convert you and fundamentalism is the true face of religion.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

The vast majority of religious folks are not interested in converting anybody, to say other wise just shows how paranoid you are, sorry Ive had BBQs with right wing christians, played frisbee & smoked weed with 100s of fresh out of Gaza Jews, prayed with Hordes of Muslims...none have been even slightly interested in converting me, but then again thats just my experience

Most of the naieve crazies (sorry, religious people. Not sorry if youre offended just sorry you're religious ) aren't interested.

Most of the attempts i've had have been subjected to were by people so socially out of touch and indept it was actually funny.

Weirdly the Jehova's witnesses stopped calling one day after i answered the door a white plastic suit and latex gloves and goggles, all splattered in dark red, carrying a hacksaw(or was it a hammer?), with a pair of legs just about visible sticking out of the doorway behind me...

The irony of them making a snap judgement when in fact they'd called in the middle of me clearing a few tools out of the way of where we needed to paint next, and that my friend had hurt her back painting the ceiling and was lying down for a few minutes apparently never occured.

Reminds me of that scene from "American Werewolf in Paris"...

 

[Helme]

You can go on and on about how religion is so bad, but the truth is that it's done more good than bad, yes there were corrupt churches(especially the letters of forgiveness being sold) but there were also alot of stability in a world where everyone wanted their neighbours land, and usually would just take it by force.

A decent example of this is how Sweden unified from a countryside with constant wars between minor local lords to a medieval powerhouse that conquered Norway, Finland and even parts of Poland, now I'm not saying that the conquering was good(though the pagan Finns did deserve it!1) but just the act of giving people a common goal, and stopping alot of bloodshed between friends and neighbours was enough in my opinion, now the problem was that the Kings abused this new unity to further their own goals but thats another point.

Hell, just giving warmongering people in power a reason not to attack was good enough, the divine retribution of christ - it didn't always work, but neither does the UN.

That said, I'm sure we are reaching the point soon when we won't actually need religion anymore, or not religion on the same scale. It's already started to happening with the Pope losing alot of his power over the last 400 years, and it will just continue to dwindle as they keep oppose the future while sticking to the past(the same can be said about pretty much every single country leadership however, or most corporations for that matter). But I do believe that religion as a personal belief will be there until the last human takes his dieing breath as our alien overlords finish their conquest of earth.

--

Also regarding the scientific researches coming to a halt with the christian church coming to power, I do believe that isn't really the church fault as much as it's the constant warfare. Europe has torn itself apart several times over with its fighting between countries, and will probably keep doing it aslong as it exists. Ancient Rome and to a lesser extent Greece, while also constantly at war - never really got invaded themself, or had their hometowns pillaged which gave scientists working on non-war related research have the time to do so, as it was actually useful to the country itself. But when you are constantly at war and risk getting invaded... war research is all that matters, finding that little edge over your enemy - be it new cavalry formations or bigger cannons. You would think medical research would be important aswell, but people back then didn't value human life as much as we believe we value it today, farmer Joe from Dungville, Coventry wasn't just important enough to waste a field surgeons time on - as there were countless more Joe's to force into service.