Savage questions?

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Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
46% evade when evade buff up. No dodger again. Savage is Troll with lower dex and qui than a Kobold. Warrior has the highest ws in the game (attackers from other realms will not be as successful at hitting).

100 and 50 swings are rather small ammount though, it probably could go 3% up or down in those cases.
 
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Pin

Guest
And the: "Savages evade everything, You can't slam a savage" (Wajn)

Basically comes down to take a full pure tank guardbot/slambot (50/50 s/s Armsman/Hero):

1) Go behind target;
2) Slam target.


On a Warrior you have a ~85% chance of landing it.
On a Berserker you have a ~72% chance of landing it.
On a Savage you have a ~44% chance of landing it.


If there's 3 Warriors attacking your support, it'll take an average of 3.5 slams to stun them all.
If there's 3 Berserkers attacking your support, it'll take an average of 4.2 slams to stun them all.
If there's 3 Savages attacking your support, it'll take an average of 6.8 slams to stun them all = oh fuck, everyone is already dead.


edit: and nevermind the endurance cost of 7 slams :p
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by Rollie
remove 360 degree evade from savage imho its far too overpowering, would make tanks slam much more useful on them.

They probably shouldn't lose advanced evade, but should be dropped to base Evade 2, and have the Savagery line raped ;)
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by driwen
100 and 50 swings are rather small ammount though, it probably could go 3% up or down in those cases.

There's 414 swings in the first test. But sure, a couple of points up or down against a 1950ws warrior - it's only going up against any attacker from another realm.
 
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Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
And the: "Savages evade everything, You can't slam a savage" (Wajn)

Basically comes down to take a full pure tank guardbot/slambot (50/50 s/s Armsman/Hero):

1) Go behind target;
2) Slam target.


On a Warrior you have a ~85% chance of landing it.
On a Berserker you have a ~72% chance of landing it.
On a Savage you have a ~44% chance of landing it.


If there's 3 Warriors attacking your support, it'll take an average of 3.5 slams to stun them all.
If there's 3 Berserkers attacking your support, it'll take an average of 4.2 slams to stun them all.
If there's 3 Savages attacking your support, it'll take an average of 6.8 slams to stun them all = oh fuck, everyone is already dead.

its 56% chance of landing it and takes 5.4 slams to slam them all and that is if they have turned evade buff on.

and what do you mean with its only going up against any attacker from another realm?
I was talking about the slam and the test of the troll savage, but those could go up or down as they are rather small measurements.
 
R

Rollie

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
They probably shouldn't lose advanced evade, but should be dropped to base Evade 2, and have the Savagery line raped ;)

lol :p

well tbh i think losing advanced evade will allow tanks to perform rear styles+slam with minimal problems, as i feel evading the highest wep skill tank in the game as he attacks from the rear is a bit OTT.

I think they should drop the focus on savages and switch to reavers as thats where the real FoTM ppl are :D
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by driwen
its 56% chance of landing it and takes 5.4 slams to slam them all and that is if they have turned evade buff on.

The test of Slam is too small a sample-size (which you already said).

Just going by the larger test of unstyled hits giving a 42% evade, and Slam (with no +to-hit) having a constant 15% miss-rate (somewhat arbitrary figure, but not too far out).


Originally posted by driwen
and what do you mean with its only going up against any attacker from another realm?

Weaponskill is the determining factor for bypassing evade. A Warrior has a higher weaponskill than any other class, so a Savage will evade more against an equally-specced/buffed Armsman or Hero (and any other class from other realms).

The chance to bypass evade with Slam is typically lower than a normal swing as this is a 'shield weaponskill' based off Dex, rather than the normally-higher weaponskill stat.

From the other tests in that thread showing the difference weaponskill makes, you can see that the Savage with evade buff up (doesn't even need dodger) will get higher evade rate than the 42-44% shown against the Warrior. Giving roughly 44% chance to hit him.


As for "if they have turned evade buff on" ?? Errrr... what Savage doesn't turn it on at every opportunity? 70-80hp to double your evade rate? Nah, I'll skip it for now thanks :rolleyes:
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by Rollie
lol :p

well tbh i think losing advanced evade will allow tanks to perform rear styles+slam with minimal problems, as i feel evading the highest wep skill tank in the game as he attacks from the rear is a bit OTT.

Yes, it would allow tanks to rape them from behind, hitting them harder and more readily than any other tank or hybrid. Is this fair? No, that would not be a reasonable thing to do imo.

But dropping down base evade (why have higher base evade than a Berserker when you can buff your own?) would be reasonable.

And reducing the strength of the Savagery line is desperately needed (aswell as increasing the hp cost when buffed, etc). The top-end of Savagery buffs should probably be 13% dps, 20% haste, 13% evade, etc.

Originally posted by Rollie
I think they should drop the focus on savages and switch to reavers as thats where the real FoTM ppl are :D

*cough* Yeah, I think we should be upgraded to pure tank status and get into some RvR groups too :p
 
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Rollie

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
Yes, it would allow tanks to rape them from behind, hitting them harder and more readily than any other tank or hybrid. Is this fair? No, that would not be a reasonable thing to do imo.

But dropping down base evade (why have higher base evade than a Berserker when you can buff your own?) would be reasonable.

And reducing the strength of the Savagery line is desperately needed (aswell as increasing the hp cost when buffed, etc). The top-end of Savagery buffs should probably be 13% dps, 20% haste, 13% evade, etc.

I guess this is a test mythic should do, although savages atm have the best offence and best defence of tanks, will need to see how the 1.65 DPS modifications effect them, but savage do need tweeking still, but not killed off.


Originally posted by Pin
*cough* Yeah, I think we should be upgraded to pure tank status and get into some RvR groups too :p

:D
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
As for "if they have turned evade buff on" ?? Errrr... what Savage doesn't turn it on at every opportunity? 70-80hp to double your evade rate? Nah, I'll skip it for now thanks :rolleyes:

ah yes forgot the missrate :/.

and if you are mezzed you cant turn the buff on and savages shouldnt have it on immediatly when they meet a group as it will cost them hit points and its not useful yet. So its possible to catch a savage without his buff up or just between it going down and up again (sometimes people forget to check wether their buff just went down or not). Off course its small chance and certainly versus good savages, but it is something to keep in mind. Ow and btw the buff costs them 130 hitpoints, which doesnt really matter to them but it is slightly more than 70-80.


and rollie the dps modification is a very light one and wasnt meant as one, just that they didnt want to decrease the single hits so just decreased quads and increased triples and so decrease dps as a by effect. Also duelist reflex didnt seem to be working anymore on savages. But they will still be doing around the same damage and their evade will still be high, except there will be less quad hits.
 
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parzi

Guest
lol @ top haste 20%... can also use healer conc haste then that costs no hp :p
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by driwen
ah yes forgot the missrate :/.

and if you are mezzed you cant turn the buff on and savages shouldnt have it on immediatly when they meet a group as it will cost them hit points and its not useful yet.

People who aren't asleep can press a button or 3 before getting mezzed. And well, there's that thing called Determination which kinda reduces the chance to catch one in that state anyway ;)

Originally posted by driwen
Ow and btw the buff costs them 130 hitpoints, which doesnt really matter to them but it is slightly more than 70-80.

Nope, each buff costs 8/9% of BASE hp (depending on savagery level). and BASE means naked, unbuffed hp. So 8/9% of ~900hp is ~72/81hp per buff.
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by parzi
lol @ top haste 20%... can also use healer conc haste then that costs no hp :p

yeah, you may aswell lose the line completely, eh? ;)
 
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svartmetall

Guest
Originally posted by Pin
And reducing the strength of the Savagery line is desperately needed (aswell as increasing the hp cost when buffed, etc). The top-end of Savagery buffs should probably be 13% dps, 20% haste, 13% evade, etc.
Why?

We lose HPs for our buffs, don't forget. You propose punishing us twice, which is crazy.
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by svartmetall
Why?

We lose HPs for our buffs, don't forget. You propose punishing us twice, which is crazy.

If you want a 125% boost to your evade (2.25x better defense), do you think 3.7% buffed hp is a big enough price?

If you want a 90% boost to your damage (1.9x better damage), do you think 7.5% buffed hp is a big enough price?


Look at them combined... Fire 3 buffs, you've still got 2k hp, but have vastly more damage output and vastly better defense than anyone else.

Then guess what... Buffs drop on you, and you get a 250hp heal to be back where you started.
 
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svartmetall

Guest
Higher Savagery costs would make soloing impossible for Savages, our solo downtime is very bad as it is.

They've already fixed our S/D/T/Q rate, all we need now is the interrupt removed from our taunt shout (with the timer lowered) and for Savagery costs to be slightly reduced, but include buffed HPs at the same % rate.

Sorted.
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by svartmetall
Higher Savagery costs would make soloing impossible for Savages, our solo downtime is very bad as it is.

What do you mean by soloing? If you mean solo-exping, then you'll find there are other classes who also have it tough, and it's not a problem with the Savagery line, it's a fundamental problem to do with %-based skills that rise with level that DAoC is full of.

If you want, just compare a solo-levelling rogue with a solo-levelling savage who doesn't use the savagery buffs.


Anyway, changing the hp cost of the savagery buffs to work off total hp instead of base would mean a substantially larger hp cost for fully-buffed, grouped savages, but a much smaller change for unbuffed, dropped-armour-wearing, solo-exping savage.

Originally posted by svartmetall
They've already fixed our S/D/T/Q rate, all we need now is the interrupt removed from our taunt shout (with the timer lowered) and for Savagery costs to be slightly reduced, but include buffed HPs at the same % rate.

Sorted.

Errr... LOL if you think that the taunt shout is the only issue remaining in RvR.
 
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Tasans

Guest
Have you ever tried to solo xp a savage? If not you dont know what downtime means.
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by Tasans
Have you ever tried to solo xp a savage? If not you dont know what downtime means.

indeed I have. and it's a damn sight easier than when I levelled my infiltrator ;)
 
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sigh

Guest
giv up now, or have a dam good arguement for pin :p
 
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arrakeen

Guest
Originally posted by Tasans
Have you ever tried to solo xp a savage? If not you dont know what downtime means.

Imho Leveling a savage aint that hard, spec 2h and you suddenly solo quite nicely, respec at 40 and get a group :O

And if you wanner go h2h all the way that aint that hard either

With both spec just dont fire all buffs all the time really not nesseary :)
 
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Tasans

Guest
Leveling my fotm inf wasnt too hard, and i was using /level stuff and df items later. But xping with a savage when i didnt have my bots pass made me run out of cigs.
 

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