RvR Groups - dumb the paladin?

Shrye

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
859
Can't exactly say that I play Alb myself, however continuous whining from albs about not being able to include enough abilities/dmg in groups has made me think a little - the paladin is hardly used for anything but end-o-time, their other abilities is somewhat insignificant compared to the rest of the classes.

Hence I'm wondering, has any of you really considered dumping the paladin and rely on end-o-time potions instead? End-o-time3 lasts 1 minute, which happens to be the duration of the potion as well, so nothing is really preventing people from choking on them in continuation of each other, or to use the End-o-time4 potion which unfortunately has a 2 minute cooldown timer.


The bad effects of it, as I see it is:
  • Inferior to End-o-time5
-Fixed by buying Longwind 1-2 (Mids has been using lw for a long time already).
  • Sheer potion cost
-For some, money may be a problem, however if they already got a lvl 50 toon, I personally don't think that it's that bad - especially not considering that the clerics/casters is already using about the same amount of potions that the tanks would have to use.
  • Potion availability
-This might indeed prove tricky, wether or not that it's easy to find potions in Housing or not, or if you got a friendly alchemist or maybe even a potionbot yourself.
  • Cleric/casters lacking End-o-time to flee from assist trains
Seeing as they got to decide wether to choke end or power potions, these people are probably the worst off :/ ... and unfortunately I don't see any way to solve it, just gotta hope there's a v. good guarder in group I guess.
  • Quite heavy price if it doesn't work
... seeing as people would have to respec out of longwind again, and that it's a whole group - guess it's only for the more wealthy/risk-taking people to try out.​


As said, it's merely a couple of thoughts on my behalf and I'm wondering if it'd even work in reality. If someone is already playing alb and think that this might actually work too and decides to test it out - but all that's preventing it from running a fixed group is a rej/enh cleric, I can probably borrow my mates for a week and help out (however nothing permanent on my part, alb got this stench of fish :p)

Critique anyone?
 

Celery

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
60
Why not just make the Pallie more group friendly ?

Having to rely on potions isn't an answer IMO
 

Asha

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 25, 2003
Messages
1,355
in a tank group you cannot dump the paladin. not only will it cost all of your group members a fortune in pots, but your support will be screwed.

in a caster group it is a definate option imo.

I would rather dump the minstrel and run on caster speed + sprinting than dump the paladin.

besides, gwal is cute. :clap:
 

Parlain

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
97
Shrye said:
Can't exactly say that I play Alb myself, however continuous whining from albs about not being able to include enough abilities/dmg in groups has made me think a little - the paladin is hardly used for anything but end-o-time, their other abilities is somewhat insignificant compared to the rest of the classes.

Hence I'm wondering, has any of you really considered dumping the paladin and rely on end-o-time potions instead? End-o-time3 lasts 1 minute, which happens to be the duration of the potion as well, so nothing is really preventing people from choking on them in continuation of each other, or to use the End-o-time4 potion which unfortunately has a 2 minute cooldown timer.


The bad effects of it, as I see it is:
  • Inferior to End-o-time5
-Fixed by buying Longwind 1-2 (Mids has been using lw for a long time already).
  • Sheer potion cost
-For some, money may be a problem, however if they already got a lvl 50 toon, I personally don't think that it's that bad - especially not considering that the clerics/casters is already using about the same amount of potions that the tanks would have to use.
  • Potion availability
-This might indeed prove tricky, wether or not that it's easy to find potions in Housing or not, or if you got a friendly alchemist or maybe even a potionbot yourself.
  • Cleric/casters lacking End-o-time to flee from assist trains
Seeing as they got to decide wether to choke end or power potions, these people are probably the worst off :/ ... and unfortunately I don't see any way to solve it, just gotta hope there's a v. good guarder in group I guess.
  • Quite heavy price if it doesn't work
... seeing as people would have to respec out of longwind again, and that it's a whole group - guess it's only for the more wealthy/risk-taking people to try out.​


As said, it's merely a couple of thoughts on my behalf and I'm wondering if it'd even work in reality. If someone is already playing alb and think that this might actually work too and decides to test it out - but all that's preventing it from running a fixed group is a rej/enh cleric, I can probably borrow my mates for a week and help out (however nothing permanent on my part, alb got this stench of fish :p)

Critique anyone?
Been meaning to try this but a few things

End is used for more than running; chasing sprinting end5 support when PF doesn't come off leaves no end of styles; so you'd have to get lw and some tireless for good measure to reproduce the end 5 effects. Having said that Paladin end range is so small anyway that you have to keep an eye on where you position yourself such that either the clerics or tanks are in range (not a problem for pbae groups :m00: )

However,you are right in the thing that holds us back from quaffing potions is not only the utility of the end bot- my lot tell me that FH, damage chant (since the majority of grpos don't run with either a wizzie or theurgist) rez ablity, insta taunt and guard come in handy as well as the "END FFS" - but the fact that in an average night's RvR you'd blow through 1-3 end pots per fight, getting into a fight every 1-15 mins such that we'd blow through over 50 potions in an average night.

I dunno if we can chain Thire to the desk to make that many pots EVERY night :D

It's a fine idea but one reserved for fixed grps who play with the same 8 or not at all; and the only one of those I've seen on a regular basis is AD...

AD's Driver, MA and GM is Farek...

..who happens to be the No.1 Paladin...

I'll leave you to work out the likelyhood of AD running paladin-less ;)
 

xoboll

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 25, 2003
Messages
115
hmm.. pallies can do a lot more than run end chant.. for one they are stupidly powerful.. specced 50 in shield and a few lvls of MoB not a lot Melle is gonna hit em.. yes magic will but bbump up resists and its not so bad and AoM helps a lot there.. then theres the heal chant.. no its not gr8 but it all helps .. rezz. you all whine about Ghetto rezz but if its all there is its sometimes better than missing the whole fight releasing and w8in in sauvage for VIsur.. then theres FH .. if used properly it has saved many a grp.. and a pally wear plate.. so can take the hits if needed..

yes as a damage dealer they are pretty crap.. but as support or block bot you couldnt really as for a better class imho.. .

oh yes.. used to always think paladins were a waste of time.. then i made one.. and i will never go back :)

if GOa would just up their damage output u would have one hell of a tank..
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
1,103
tank group is nothing without a paladin. full stop. period.

i don't use a pala in my caster groups though, they are a waste of space
 

Lac Desariel

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 15, 2004
Messages
32
Fedaykin said:
tank group is nothing without a paladin. full stop. period.

i don't use a pala in my caster groups though, they are a waste of space

on the contrary gregorain / regtur has saved the group more than once with combat rez guard and slaming never under estimate a pally imo
 

ye-roon

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 8, 2004
Messages
58
oh i remember the times where we pala's didn't have end regen :rolleyes:
 

Generation

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
136
ye-roon said:
oh i remember the times where we pala's didn't have end regen :rolleyes:
Hehe, those were the days. We had to twist our 3 chants and were constantly ooe. For those that think it's slow to solo with a pala now, they have no idea what it used to be like bashing on a mob unstyled while twisting chants. RSI anyone? :p
 

Elvo^Rylu

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
562
Caster grps shudnt use pally's, other classes give more benefit.

Tank grps shud never leave without one. end3 pots wud require LW3, so you also regen end on the run.
 

Generation

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
136
Bishibosh said:
forget palas wha-haiy-ning what about the poor "50 reaver lfg" -ers? :)

Surprising how many groups don't see the nice benefits of adding a reaver :rolleyes:
 

Kenshee Himura

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Messages
88
Our dmg output may suck, but our shields keep casters/clerics alive for a long time (xept when them mid fotm grps come aka JH, then even a shield from star trek won work ;) )
And instead of dumping the paladin mythic should boost it's RvR value.
 

Darksbane

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
48
We dont bother with paladin in our caster group, just not enough room without loosing something else which is more benefitcial.
 

Thire

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
106
If i can get rid of you Parl, i'll even craft all night long !
 

Light

Loyal Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
692
ye-roon said:
oh i remember the times where we pala's didn't have end regen :rolleyes:
hehe i remember levelling before end and before taunt shout

body pulls anyone :D

man that used to annoy the shit outta me lol
 

Shrye

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
859
"End is used for more than running; chasing sprinting end5 support when PF doesn't come off leaves no end of styles; so you'd have to get lw and some tireless for good measure to reproduce the end 5 effects." - Parlain
I may be wrong, but ain't lw2 + endo3 = endo5? In which case, all you got to do, is spending 4 RSP on longwind - afaik, only mid tanks is using lw currently, hib/alb ain't (maybe a few loners who uses it, but nothing realm-wide consenus about it as there is in mid).



"hmm.. pallies can do a lot more than run end chant.. for one they are stupidly powerful.. specced 50 in shield and a few lvls of MoB not a lot Melle is gonna hit em.. yes magic will but bbump up resists and its not so bad and AoM helps a lot there.. then theres the heal chant.. no its not gr8 but it all helps .. rezz. you all whine about Ghetto rezz but if its all there is its sometimes better than missing the whole fight releasing and w8in in sauvage for VIsur.. then theres FH .. if used properly it has saved many a grp.. and a pally wear plate.. so can take the hits if needed.." - xoboll
That's maybe so, however AoM is only for yourself and sorry to say, you ain't the primary target in fg vs fg fights. I also believe that the 10% res is next to worthless in a tank group, as the tanks got so many hitpoints that if they got to be ressed in the first place, they still have to be healed up which takes about as much power as it'd have taken to give them a 100% res from the beginning.

Only thing it could be, is ressing a cleric in the group if they other one is being interrupted somehow, and also has mcl/ip up so he won't just fall dead again immediately. Altho, if one of the clerics is already dead and the other interrupted, the fight is probably already lost.

... Whereas for guard: Guard ain't something unique to a paladin, both merc and arms can do that as well (and both hits harder - haven't looked at precise specs, but should be possibly to whip out the polearm or the offhand weapon and go on the offensive for either of them as well?)



"tank group is nothing without a paladin. full stop. period." - Fedaykin
Thanks for your ever so insightful wisdom - nownow, perhaps you'd care to explain why, instead of just comming with a statement? I've already argued as for why I think it might work, you've done shit. So either stay away or debate for your pov please.



"Tank grps shud never leave without one. end3 pots wud require LW3, so you also regen end on the run." - Elvo^Ruly
Why should you suddenly have endo6 when using potions, and not just endo5 like if there were a paladin in the group?



"Our dmg output may suck, but our shields keep casters/clerics alive for a long time (xept when them mid fotm grps come aka JH, then even a shield from star trek won work ;) )
And instead of dumping the paladin mythic should boost it's RvR value."
- Kenshee Himura
Regarding guard, read further up in this post :p

I agree, and I'd also wish there were a room for every and all classes in RvR - however, that ain't the case and hence it's up to "us" to get the best out of the groups with what's available to us.
 

Generation

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
136
Shrye said:
... Whereas for guard: Guard ain't something unique to a paladin, both merc and arms can do that as well (and both hits harder - haven't looked at precise specs, but should be possibly to whip out the polearm or the offhand weapon and go on the offensive for either of them as well?)
Don't forget reavers ;)

We're a very useful guard who can deal big damage when needed without the need to "whip out a pole or offhand weapon"
 

Shrye

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
859
lol sorry, you're right - reavers included, do recall them being very nasty when I played ns. Not only that, there seems to be some rather positive comments about using reavers vs hib pbaoe groups as well. The worst thing about them, is no det - exactly like the paladin :/
 

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