Russia v Greenpeace

[rynnor]

Tbh it was only a matter of time before boarding other vessels/premises for pointless publicity stunts eventually got them into trouble.

They seem to have been operating under the mis-apprehension that because they believed something was wrong it empowered them to break the law.

Harsh dose of reality will be good for the hippies

 

[Raven]

I am sure their daddies lawyers will get them sorted out.

 

[old.Tohtori]

What happened? I don't follow The Daily Hippie

 

[rynnor]

I am sure their daddies lawyers will get them sorted out.

Sadly I think you are right - even the Russians don't really seem that serious about chucking them in prison for 15 years and the Beeb is just sucking it all up

 

[rynnor]

What happened? I don't follow The Daily Hippie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24362817

 

[caLLous]

They be pirates.

They're stupid. As soon as they try to board a ship or an oil platform or whatever, it surely ceases to be a "peaceful protest".

 

[Tom]

They seem to have been operating under the mis-apprehension that because they believed something was wrong it empowered them to break the law.

That isn't a misapprehension. Breaking laws is often the only way to enact a change for the better.

 

[old.Tohtori]

"A charge of piracy is being laid against men and women whose only crime is to be possessed of a conscience."

I think the only crime was boarding another ship

Charge 'em and jail 'em, maybe that'll teach people hwo to protest peacefully.

 

[rynnor]

That isn't a misapprehension. Breaking laws is often the only way to enact a change for the better.

Greenpeace is just a media stunt organisation - it offers no answers - how is that going to change the world?

Clever men in labs change the world - media is just noise.

 

[Scouse]

Greenpeace is just a media stunt organisation - it offers no answers - how is that going to change the world?

*cough*

 

[Mabs]

surpised the russians just arrested them

*cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

 

[rynnor]

*cough*

Stunts and claiming credit for things that were already happening - I spotted their claim to have stopped the 3rd runway at heathrow (which is hilarious as there was already a huge campaign against it) - it doesn't look that stopped to me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23337754

 

[Wij]

Committing piracy in Russia was particularly unwise. I have no sympathy.

 

[Tom]

Greenpeace is just a media stunt organisation - it offers no answers - how is that going to change the world?

Clever men in labs change the world - media is just noise.

And yet without that media, those clever men in labs might not get the funds they need to do their work. Saying that media is "just noise" is silly.

 

[rynnor]

Committing piracy in Russia was particularly unwise. I have no sympathy.

During a massive russian naval show of force which had pretty much their entire fleet in the region as they try to lay claim to huge swathes of the arctic - there are suspicions that the two events are not unrelated and that the trip was at the behest of the US.

 

[rynnor]

And yet without that media, those clever men in labs might not get the funds they need to do their work. Saying that media is "just noise" is silly.

Most of it is but I dont expect a man who's livelihood depends on the industry to agree

 

[rynnor]

Stunts and claiming credit for things that were already happening - I spotted their claim to have stopped the 3rd runway at heathrow (which is hilarious as there was already a huge campaign against it) - it doesn't look that stopped to me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23337754

You are disagreeing that they will build a 3rd runway or what Scouse?

 

[Scouse]

You are disagreeing that they will build a 3rd runway or what Scouse?

Nah. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that they've made no difference.

Without Greenpeace's (and others) peaceful direct-action activism the world would be a much worse place.

They've been hugely effective in popularising an idea - one that Western governments can no longer afford to ignore. And because of that we have all sorts of enviornmental and ecological legislation and targets.

 

[rynnor]

Nah. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that they've made no difference.

Without Greenpeace's (and others) peaceful direct-action activism the world would be a much worse place.

They've been hugely effective in popularising an idea - one that Western governments can no longer afford to ignore. And because of that we have all sorts of enviornmental and ecological legislation and targets.

How - exactly - have they made a difference - even that article you posted had only one specific claim on the 3rd runway and that clearly didnt make a difference?

 

[Raven]

Nah. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that they've made no difference.

Without Greenpeace's (and others) peaceful direct-action activism the world would be a much worse place.

They've been hugely effective in popularising an idea - one that Western governments can no longer afford to ignore. And because of that we have all sorts of enviornmental and ecological legislation and targets.

They are nearly as effective as that Joseph Kony crowd.

Utter waste of time, the only action that means anything is direct action or terrorism. A bunch of rich kids who haven't showered in a while do not make any difference.

Do you think the oil companies give a shit what Greenpeace or the public think? Has there been any legislation that they give a shit about in the last couple of decades?

Nope.

Any fines are far less than the profit made from the activity that leads to the fine. They just don't care. Besides which, most are government supported anyway so they can laugh while not giving a shit.

As for Heathrow, that was always going to happen. People got wet and tired for no reason.

 

[Fweddy]

It's not just about fines. They can generate negative publicity for a business and that can have a huge impact on sales. How many times has a business changed its policies because of public outcry, and how much do you want to bet those business would have carried on quite happily if no one noticed?

Effective or no, at least they're actively trying to make the world a better place.

 

[Scouse]

The link was the first I pulled out of the internet rynnor. And Raven, they are a direct action group.

I'm not saying they're going to overturn the behemoth that is capitalism and it's rape of the natural world - but they've certainly been effective at what they do.

Maybe this is a better link. Now argue over that instead.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Scouse just to personally clarify something; do you think it's ok for greenpeace to break the law? If not, ok.

If you do; what's the limit of "ok criminal activity" and with what parameters do you judge if it's ok to do or not?

 

[Scouse]

Scouse just to personally clarify something; do you think it's ok for greenpeace to break the law?

In certain circumstances, yes. I do. As do the courts.

Breaking the law is an absolutely essential part of healthy democracy. History, and regular acquittal of activists who've broken the law by the courts attest to that.

Edit: And that doesn't simply include trespass, or occupation of an area or building, but also to criminal damage. Breaking the law is the normal process by which the public push back against government - and in many cases the law is changed because of this.

 

[DaGaffer]

Greenpeace - an organisation of who's actions I often approve, while detesting pretty much everybody in it.

 

[rynnor]

Maybe this is a better link. Now argue over that instead.

Easy - take this one - http://www.greenpeace.org/internati...andons-plans-for-deep-sea-oil-dri/blog/43250/

Did they pull out because A. flagwavers or B it wasn't economical to exploit yet - I figure B. Its a bit deluded for Greenpeace to claim it was responsible.

 

[Scouse]

Greenpeace - an organisation of who's actions I often approve, while detesting pretty much everybody in it.

This.



And fuck off

 

[rynnor]

Effective or no, at least they're actively trying to make the world a better place.

Hehe - its like a childs idea of improving the world without seeing the big picture.

Take the arctic oil drilling - why are they doing it - because people need oil.

What's the alternative to exploring and finding new sources of oil?

Oil shortages, terrible price rises and the disintegration of our civilisation.

Given that what exactly are Greenpeace bringing to the problem?

 

[Scouse]

Easy - take this one - http://www.greenpeace.org/internati...andons-plans-for-deep-sea-oil-dri/blog/43250/

Did they pull out because A. flagwavers or B it wasn't economical to exploit yet - I figure B. Its a bit deluded for Greenpeace to claim it was responsible.

I think it'd would be a combination of it being marginally profitable, home issues for petrobras and staunch opposition (including at the UN).

 

[DaGaffer]

Hehe - its like a childs idea of improving the world without seeing the big picture.

Take the arctic oil drilling - why are they doing it - because people need oil.

What's the alternative to exploring and finding new sources of oil?

Oil shortages, terrible price rises and the disintegration of our civilisation.

Given that what exactly are Greenpeace bringing to the problem?

Because the price of oil is artificially driven by a cartel, the economic case for finding solutions to replace oil is easily manipulated. Finding ever more remote sources of oil is ultimately just kicking the problem down the road for a bit. This isn't to say Greenpeace are the answer, but neither is ever more damaging oil exploration.