Sex Renewable Energy

[Scouse]

So, anyone know much about Ground Source Heat pumps?

Specifically - can they be used to heat two buildings?

Mr Scouse may be landing his Welsh doer-upper. Mortgage is in-process, structural surveyor is going in on Thursday. Place will need gutting and remodelling - there's no way I can afford to extend yet (especially since I'm flying to Poland in January to train my replacement, shortly before being kicked out of the bank) - but there's a wreck that could potentially be converted into a holiday let in the future.

I could punt for oil, but I'd rather have a much more efficient system. So ground source seems sensible - but I'd like it to potentially provide heat for two nearby buildings.

What does FH think?

 

[caLLous]

Either ground source or air source (basically a pool heater attached to your house). Ground source is far more expensive to install (it would've cost me € 24 000) but cheaper to run, the "inside the house" bits are identical between the 2 systems. Both do hot water, heating and cooling (probably not an issue in Wales), depending on what you have in the house and the boiler's capabilities. I do know a guy who's had no end of problems with his ground source installation but a few others who are over the moon with theirs.

 

[Job]

I dont know much about them...its basically a reverse fridge..they range from huge lengths of underground pipe to small aircon style radiators.


They dont produce enough heat for combi style water heating and the radiators have to be much larger..youll have to do a major upgrade to your insulation.
The compressor pump uses a lot of electricity but its much less than the equivalent gas.
Basically youll end up with much larger rads..hot water storage tanks, but the whole thing is easily suplemented with solar heat panels and turbines etc.

You need a good 10m of coiled underground pipe per kw of heat....so a lot of digging and thats the important bit..the deeper the better, at least 5m or bore hole style 100m deep!
It will never perform like a gas system, underfloor heating is best and your hot water will need electric boost to get to 60 degrees.

Its very easy to get a shit system and the entire industry is full of cowboys and over rated claims.
There are lots of people with ghps that are using more electricity than the equivalent gas.

 

[Scouse]

That's what I'm worried about - I suspect very poor insulation. Land for loops is no hardship (smallholding) but if it ain't going to keep us warm then it's not really a starter.

What's your mates' problems @caLLous?

 

[caLLous]

..the deeper the better, at least 5m or bore hole style 100m deep!

That's not true. You bury the pipes at 1m because 1m down is 10c all year round. Vertical installation can be as deep as you like I think (I was looking at horizontal). Another disadvantage with horizontal is that you can't plant anything apart from grass above where the pipes are. Horizontal is seen as the much easier option and you'd only go for vertical if don't have the space for horizontal.

What's your mates' problems @caLLous?

I think it was just shoddy installation tbh. Leaks and such. It just left him disillusioned with the whole thing.

 

[Scouse]

Yeah - 1-2m is what I've read.

Expensive tho. At least initially.

 

[Embattle]

The houses I've seen with heat pumps always have good insulation and since as job states they don't have the same output they require underfloor heating.

 

[Scouse]

Yeah. I have concerns about suitability too.

 

[Job]

That's not true. You bury the pipes at 1m because 1m down is 10c all year round. Vertical installation can be as deep as you like I think (I was looking at horizontal). Another disadvantage with horizontal is that you can't plant anything apart from grass above where the pipes are. Horizontal is seen as the much easier option and you'd only go for vertical if don't have the space for horizontal.


I think it was just shoddy installation tbh. Leaks and such. It just left him disillusioned with the whole thing.

You need at least 5m because the ground heat cycle starts to diminish..you end up running the compressor more, thats one of the main reasons people end up with higher bills 5 years down the road

 

[caLLous]

You need at least 5m because the ground heat cycle starts to diminish..you end up running the compressor more, thats one of the main reasons people end up with higher bills 5 years down the road

No, you don't.

Does this look like 5m?

If you had to dig a 5m deep trench, nobody would be able to afford/justify the installation costs.

 

[Scouse]

You need at least 5m

Yeah - everything I read says 1-2m tops.

 

[DaGaffer]

No, you don't.

Does this look like 5m?

If you had to dig a 5m deep trench, nobody would be able to afford/justify the installation costs.

It doesn't, but what it does look like is a fucking huge field.who has the space for that?

 

[Job]

No, you don't.

Does this look like 5m?

If you had to dig a 5m deep trench, nobody would be able to afford/justify the installation costs.

That system will fail.

Slinky in shallow trench is the worst install, you are taking too much heat out.

Read all the forums for people with problems.

IET Forums - Ground source heat pumps

 

[Scouse]

It doesn't, but what it does look like is a fucking huge field.who has the space for that?

Potentially me:

Spoiler

If it's not so wrecked it's uneconomical (left side of the road - which ends at the house

 

[caLLous]

It doesn't, but what it does look like is a fucking huge field.who has the space for that?

In the country, that's known as a "garden" dear boy.

 

[caLLous]

That system will fail.

Slinky in shallow trench is the worst install, you are taking too much heat out.

Read all the forums for people with problems.

IET Forums - Ground source heat pumps

I had a quick look at that 9 year old thread and I see no mention of 5 metres. In fact somebody ("stunlawless" on the first page) said:

Pump is a 10kw 3p Dimplex. House is a Georgian 4 bed detached. ground loop has 750m of pipe, in 5 trenches 1m wide & 1.2m deep.

 

[Job]

The guy from the council mentions it as the only way to ensure long term all year usability.
Its great for a few years and then each year the pump has to work harder for the same heat.

 

[DaGaffer]

Bloody Hell:

Number of Rooms Heat Pump Installation & Cost Horizontal Groundwork Vertical Groundwork
7+ €48,000 €14,000 €34,000
6 €36,500 €9,500 €23,000
4 €24,000 €5,500 €15,000
2 €18,500 €3,500 €7,000

Old System Savings Per Year CO2 Savings (kgs)
Coal Approx € 900 7600 - 12100 kg
LPG Approx € 1,400 2800 - 4500 kg
Gas Approx € 626 2100 - 3300 kg
Electric Approx € 1,250 6700 - 11700 kg
Oil Approx € 200 3000 - 4700 kg

I'd be long dead by the time a vertical installation would pay for itself (31 years), the only practical solution since I don't have a football field handy, so anyone doing this is doing it for the carbon savings, NOT economics. I'm also unsure all the kit would even last 31 years, so the economics are probably even worse.

 

[Job]

I did my last gas refresher course with a guy who pulled up in 120K Rangy.
He had a small business installing heat pumps..government grants all round...sell like hot cakes...he'll fold the company and fuck off with millions in his pocket.
The green industry is a joke.

 

[Scouse]

so anyone doing this is doing it for the carbon savings, NOT economics.

Yep.

Environment > Economics

There's currently a subsidy that pays over 7 years but I think the tories are about to kill it.

On the other hand - labour's manifesto commitment is to train loads of installers and ramp up GSHP installations - so economy of scsle would come in to play.

I suspect in Wales I'd have to go borehole too - the chances of being able to dig trenches on a mountain...

 

[Scouse]

he'll fold the company and fuck off with millions in his pocket.
The green industry is a joke.

Company law is a joke.

Most of the people near my sister's are serial phoenixers.

 

[Scouse]

The problem with you communicating only be emoticons @Embattle is I don't know if you're amused by something I'm also amused by or whether you're "making a point" (who knows which one) by being a wanker

 

[Embattle]

I'm always amused when you try and take the high ground on the environment when you are so often no way near the ground.

 

[Scouse]

I'm always amused when you try and take the high ground on the environment when you are so often no way near the ground.

No point entering into discussions on this as whilst I freely acknowledge where I'm good/bad and am prepared to discuss, you ain't.

I know I'm streets ahead of you but you sit in your pants passing judgement (on everyone who isn't a saint) because of a couple of long-haul flights over the past decade (which I offset).

I put and continue to put my actual hard-earned money where my mouth is, actions are and have been taken.

What do you do that gives you the right to be some high and mighty judge?

Oh yeah, that's right. You sit in your pants pointing at people who've been on holiday and, regardless of what else they do, use that as justification to do fuck all.

 

[Embattle]

Oh please nice attempt at deflection, the issue is highlighted even more with your post.

It is the saintly smug self righteousness of your posts not what you do which in some cases is commendable.

 

[Scouse]

You find it smug and self righteous because I actually do shit whereas you don't - so rather than looking at yourself you'd rather snipe at me.

And you talk about deflection!

 

[Embattle]

You find it smug and self righteous because I actually do shit whereas you don't - so rather than looking at yourself you'd rather snipe at me.

And you talk about deflection!

I see you've raced right past the issue again, which is to be expected.

 

[Scouse]

I see you've raced right past the issue again, which is to be expected.

Which issue, exactly, please.

 

[Embattle]

I've already stated it once in this post and more in others, I will not be doing so again.

 

[Scouse]

Spoiler

BTW - I've addressed the flights issue - more than once. If you don't like it, tough shit.

If you think I'm being self-righteous by saying "Environment > Money" then you're a fool.

What do YOU do @Embattle?