Religion fucks over the innocent once again!

[aika]

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
Our four...no... Amongst our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....
Doh!


Back on topic, even if it sounds harsh, religion is making Middle East countries stuck into and underdeveloped state compared with western countries. And nothing adds more fuel to the fire than economy problems...


PS: I'd like to play devil's advocate and state that during the Dark Ages, Spain was not the only country with Inquisition, in fact that organization was found in Italy n quickly spreaded throu France, Spain, Germany kingdoms, and England (tho ppl like Torquemada took it to the most bizarre extrems indeed).

Exactly.. if you look carefully across the pages of history, you will see that a society that is controlled (blinded) by religion has never reached any progress, be it scientific or social or economical - look at Europe during the dark ages when it was ruled by the church, then look at Europe during the rennaisance and enlightment period and you will get the idea. Islam needs some serious reforms to make it compatible with the 21th century.

 

[tierk]

........How can you justify this by relating to actions done by christians 400-1000 years ago(depending on country)?.....

You are right this bears no comparison with Christianity 400 years ago. 400 years ago she would have been boiled or burned for her sins.

Should we back down on our moral principles out of guilt?.......

I dont know if you have managed to twig yet that the whole "morals" idea varies from one society to another? What might be acceptable in one society might not be acceptable to another? I know this concept might seem completely alien to you - that other people might not agree with your moral standards - but guess what its true.

........If you think Islam was a more pleasant religion then christianity before, then you should look up the conquest of the lands in modern India and Pakistan by muslim warlords. For example: historians believe that up to a million hindus or more were murdered (not killed in battle) when Islam expanded into Asia with their "convert or die" policy......

I am not able to accept or deny the existence of the "convert or die" policy seeing as it can neither be proven nor disproved. Historians have been punting this little chestnut about for centuries and there is no definitive proof it existed or not.

What i would say though is that if it did exist then how on earth was it possible for Spain to revert to Christianity after 800 years? If anything the fact that they converted back and kicked the Muslims out of Spain only proves that you cannot force people to change their religious beliefs.

If that is the case then why on earth didnt all the other parts of the world that were converted by the sword not converted back to their orignal religions? A good example would be Iran which had a very long established history of monethism - Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - prior to Islam arriving in Iran.

........But has anyone criticised or judged Islam for that? No, yet christianity is constantly judged by its past to justify the ways of modern Islam, it's friggin rediculous.

Funnily enough yes we have been criticised and a good example would be .....

Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tierk]

Exactly.. if you look carefully across the pages of history, you will see that a society that is controlled (blinded) by religion has never reached any progress........

Sorry you are making asserations that show that you clearly know nothing about history. While most of Europe was in the Dark Ages, the Muslim world was in fact making progress, socially, economically and scientifically. In fact part of the reason that Europe was able to remove itself from the Dark Ages was due to contact with Muslims via the Crusades.

.......Islam needs some serious reforms to make it compatible with the 21th century.

Islam itself is not in need of change but rather that Muslims need to do a better job of breaking down all the misconceptions that people have about it. There is no religion that i can think of that is not essentially peaceful and Islam is no different to this.

 

[Hawkwind]

You are right this bears no comparison with Christianity 400 years ago. 400 years ago she would have been boiled or burned for her sins.

Utterly hilarious your comparing the catholic churches inquisitions or clamp downs on Lutherism/Cathars with laws that are still, in some countries, active. A few short years of european history compared to 1400 years of Islamic law!

Medievel practices still carried out in Islamic countries:

Stoning, female castration - still very common practice, changing faith (Apostaphy - high treason in the Koran) carries an automatic death sentence, false prayer (prenteding to pray) also carries a death sentence and has been carried out in several countries including Iran.

Yes, most of these carried death penalties under the Catholic rule in Europe centuries ago but are not relevant now.

I dont know if you have managed to twig yet that the whole "morals" idea varies from one society to another? What might be acceptable in one society might not be acceptable to another? I know this concept might seem completely alien to you - that other people might not agree with your moral standards - but guess what its true.

Morals is one thing, it defines us as individuals. Yes, different societies get indoctrinated with differents sets of ideals. What I don't like is the hipocrasy. 48 Muslim countries signed a human rights declaration but only after a waiver on Shari'a law was added. Pretty damn pointless really. Non Muslims in those countries have virtually no rights whatsoever. We are quite lucky in the gulf region where Christians can pray in local churches. In many Islamic countries you cannot, Saudi and Iran included. If the predominantly Christian countries of the west behaved the same way it would be appalling. Why do we accept it from them?

I am not able to accept or deny the existence of the "convert or die" policy seeing as it can neither be proven nor disproved. Historians have been punting this little chestnut about for centuries and there is no definitive proof it existed or not.

It can be pretty much proven using historical facts. Why Islam has such a hang up about this subject is quite amusing. Both Catholic and the Islamic religion was spread by the sword. Just accept it and move on. It's old and boring subject.

What i would say though is that if it did exist then how on earth was it possible for Spain to revert to Christianity after 800 years? If anything the fact that they converted back and kicked the Muslims out of Spain only proves that you cannot force people to change their religious beliefs.

The general muslim version of history in Spain is very one sided. the most peacefull reign of another country in the Earths history. Why on earth then did the people rise up. Or did El Cid do it on his own? I saw recently in a Emirates In Flight Magazine how some muslim scholars are even taking credit for the Renaissance due to the 800 year reign in Spain. The fact that it started 300 hundred years later in a different country seems to be overlooked. Not saying that was no education crossover. The Moors were known to be patrons of the arts and language but to directly link the two 300 hundred years after they were thrown out is laughable.

If that is the case then why on earth didnt all the other parts of the world that were converted by the sword not converted back to their orignal religions? A good example would be Iran which had a very long established history of monethism - Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - prior to Islam arriving in Iran.

Apostaphy as stated previously carries a death penalty in Shari'a law. I believe the koran states it an act of high treason for want of better words. So I guessing those in power kept enforcing it.

To be perfectly honest I believe religion has been used as nothing more than a control of the population by people who want power or want to keep it. Be it Catholic, Islam or whatever those in charge have generally craved power and ruled with an iron rod. In countries were the power is with religious leaders the law tends to be harsher and other religions not tolerated.


Hope that's better Tierk, had a few mins but off to another meeting now

 

[Ctuchik]

Although i agree that the judicial system if too leniant.
A system, or ruleset that sentence a woman to 200 lashes and six months in prison after being gang raped...

thats not what she was prosecuted for. she was prosecuted for cheating her husband when she stepped into the FIRST car. IE the one that her flirt was driving.

still harsh but hey, they hate ppl cheating on their other half.

for all we know she could just as well have gotten in to that car with the full intention of sleeping with the guy. just because those other guys got to her fuirst doesn't make her first offense any less severe in their eyes.

its like here in sweden if a burgular slips on your icy walkway and breaks a leg after they have stolen all ur stuff. YOU will get convicted for that, no matter what the burglar stole. sure the burgar will get his to (as did the rapists mentioned in this thread, tho for kidnaping, not rape) but that doesn't mean u will get off for not sanding your walkway.


horrible example i kow but i just woke up

 

[Vasconcelos]

Times change anyways.

You lot talking about 500 years old stuff when the reality is that we are in the 21st century: wot do the developed societies have in common??
A lay / secular way of life (with the different degrees of religious beliefs in the population) not focused around religion. Been this way since last century and will prolly keep this tendence for the next age.

The fervorous religion bonds are keeping the islamic societies stuck into a 100+ years breach from the West, and by this i dont mean we have more gadgets, cars, higher n modern buildings etc. And sooner or later, the old excuse of being a country razed n exploited by Europe 100 years ago will run invalid (see Iran e.g).

I see some of the Asian countries as vivid examples of this. Look at Japan during the 20th century, or the so called "Pacific Tigers" (Malaysia, South Korea, Singapore, etc...) during the 70s - 80s- 90s. They adapted their ways of life into wot we could call a pseudo-Renaissance ("the life focused around mankind instead god") and put their socities on par with the West.

As i said in my other reply, the Islam taken to the extrem is just adding more fuel to the problem: they are falling behind the developed world.

 

[Calaen]

Regardless of what happened a teacher with no common sense surely cant be a good teacher of children

 

[Chronictank]

Considering the naive, politically-correct, self-righteous bs you're blurring out now, I don't care.

I am neither naive or politically correct, unlike yourself i actually live in the real world which is based on facts rather than propoganda or rhetoric

Agree with Platin...can you honestly tell me that a Church would be able to sustain itself for a week in an Islamic country? As if.

They have for centuries, and they will for centuries to come
Try actually doing some research and you will find this is the case in almost every Islamic country as illustrated in post #57

Utterly hilarious your comparing the catholic churches inquisitions or clamp downs on Lutherism/Cathars with laws that are still, in some countries, active. A few short years of european history compared to 1400 years of Islamic law!

Medievel practices still carried out in Islamic countries:

Stoning, female castration - still very common practice, changing faith (Apostaphy - high treason in the Koran) carries an automatic death sentence, false prayer (prenteding to pray) also carries a death sentence and has been carried out in several countries including Iran.

Yes, most of these carried death penalties under the Catholic rule in Europe centuries ago but are not relevant now.

There will always be societies who take things too far, but fortunately these practices (which arent in the qu'ran ironically) are slowly and surely being stamped out. I think you are confusing faith and law, sharia law does not equal the faith and there are countless variations of it depending where you look just as there are literally thousands of variations of western laws.
In addition from Washburn University School of Law
"the concept of shariah has been thoroughly confused in legal and common literature. For some Muslims, shariah consists of the Quran and the prophet’s Sunna but nothing else. For others, it also includes classical fiqh. Most encyclopedias define shariah as law derived from the Qur'an, the Sunna, and classical fiqh derived from consensus (ijma) and analogy (qiyas).This definition of shariah inappropriately lumps together the revealed with the unrevealed. This blending of sources has created a muddled assumption that scholarly interpretations are as sacred and beyond revision as are the Quran and the Sunna"

You may find them ridiculous but the fact of the matter is people live by different social values, for example in this country it is unheard of (and correct me if im wrong but isnt it also illegal?) to marry your sister, but in some african nations it is not.
Regarding punishments, in America public executions take place, in most of europe it has a stigma.

Muslims are activly campaigning for Sharia law to be recognised in the UK. Yet recent polls show only 40% British Muslims even want it.

I would like to see some proof of this, i have yet to read a poll where 40% want full on sharia law.
I think you will find it was 40%ish wanted some aspects of the law (namely the punishments in most cases) if you were basing this statement on the one on the bbc site

For muslim holidays to be recognised etc. When they don't get their way our country is accussed of being rascist. Maybe we should bring back some of Europes old medievil laws and tell the rest of the world to go f*ck themselves.

You do make me laugh sometimes ^^, on one hand you want state to be seperate from religion (correct me if this assumption is wrong) but you are unwilling to recognise other cultures. Britain is no longer a christian nation, it is a multi-cultural one i see no problem whatsoever recognising other cultures.

The rascism you have seen in the UK I have also seen against westerners (myself included) in Saudi, Pakistan, Oman and Yemen. Being spat at by Arabs is no fun especially when they know you cannot touch them. If you do your in Jail and completely screwed. The Saudi Police, Customs and Mutaween (religious police) are some of the most rascist people I have ever come across. They way they treat westerners is appalling and would not be tollerated in UK.

I really dont see the point of this statement :s
I think you will find that there is little you can do to the police regardless of the country, there are people like that everywhere.
Things arent exactly rosy here either you can be pulled in under the anti terrorism act with literally no evidence for up to 30 days?, and when your enquirey comes up you arent allowed to be there, know what you are charged with, or have your lawyer attend the hearing. You are assigned one by the state and the evidence is viewed behind closed doors so in reality you could be held for a very long time without even hearing the evidence against you or knowing what you are charged of.
I used go to places such as pakistan, india, dubai, trinadad fairly regularly (dad works as an engineer for BA) and have yet to see the kind of abuse you have mentioned on a widespread scale.
Maybe myself and my friends are luckly as you seem to travel to these places alot more assumably, but you will find elements of narrow minded individuals everywhere

 

[Platin]

You are right this bears no comparison with Christianity 400 years ago. 400 years ago she would have been boiled or burned for her sins.

Are you for real?

Thank you for proving my point.

I dont know if you have managed to twig yet that the whole "morals" idea varies from one society to another? What might be acceptable in one society might not be acceptable to another? I know this concept might seem completely alien to you - that other people might not agree with your moral standards - but guess what its true.]

You're so wise. My problem would be then, where are we allowed to say "hey, please don't do that" ? When Saudi Arabia executes a women because of infidelity due to a rape? When arabic state television in "friendly" states encourage terroractions against the west and Israel? When filmmakers get murdered for portraying Islam? When a western schoolteacher gets threatened to her life and sent to jail for calling a teddybear "Muhammed"? When arabic immigrants demand Sharia-law in their neighbourhoods? No, I get it, we're not allowed to speak at all against blatant injustice and idiocy, thank you for clearing that out.

I am not able to accept or deny the existence of the "convert or die" policy seeing as it can neither be proven nor disproved. Historians have been punting this little chestnut about for centuries and there is no definitive proof it existed or not. ]

You would make any neo-nazi proud: "There's no proof, there's no proof, it's a conspiracy". Standard defense, I applaud you. Let me remind you that there's no proof to the slaughter in Jerusalem by the christians 900 years ago, there are however countless of chronicles describing the event, same as in this case. The only diffrence is the controversy about the magnitude, not if it really happened or not. Some claim a million, and others say that 80 million people were killed in one way or another.

What i would say though is that if it did exist then how on earth was it possible for Spain to revert to Christianity after 800 years? If anything the fact that they converted back and kicked the Muslims out of Spain only proves that you cannot force people to change their religious beliefs.]



If that is the case then why on earth didnt all the other parts of the world that were converted by the sword not converted back to their orignal religions? A good example would be Iran which had a very long established history of monethism - Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - prior to Islam arriving in Iran.

Demographics, geographics, cultural expansion, I don't know..write a paper on it.

Funnily enough yes we have been criticised and a good example would be .....

Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same statement he apologized for a couple of days later? Do you know how many times a pope has apologized for something he has said during the last 2000 years? Brilliant example.

 

[Platin]

I am neither naive or politically correct, unlike yourself i actually live in the real world which is based on facts rather than propoganda or rhetoric

 

[Platin]

You would make any neo-nazi proud: "There's no proof, there's no proof, it's a conspiracy". Standard defense, I applaud you.

I didn't mean that you're a nazist or try to associate you with them, bad comparison. Sorry.

 

[Hawkwind]

There will always be societies who take things too far, but fortunately these practices (which arent in the qu'ran ironically) are slowly and surely being stamped out. I think you are confusing faith and law, sharia law does not equal the faith and there are countless variations of it depending where you look just as there are literally thousands of variations of western laws.
In addition from Washburn University School of Law
"the concept of shariah has been thoroughly confused in legal and common literature. For some Muslims, shariah consists of the Quran and the prophet’s Sunna but nothing else. For others, it also includes classical fiqh. Most encyclopedias define shariah as law derived from the Qur'an, the Sunna, and classical fiqh derived from consensus (ijma) and analogy (qiyas).This definition of shariah inappropriately lumps together the revealed with the unrevealed. This blending of sources has created a muddled assumption that scholarly interpretations are as sacred and beyond revision as are the Quran and the Sunna"

I know Shari'a is just interpretations of the Koran/sunna text by Islamic scholars and does vary from country to country. I think main point is that unlike most systems of law the Shari'a cannot and will not be updated or changed. As that would against the texts of the Koran/Sunna. Therefore it is stuck in time. It will never evolve into what we would consider acceptable standards of law and punishment.

You may find them ridiculous but the fact of the matter is people live by different social values, for example in this country it is unheard of (and correct me if im wrong but isnt it also illegal?) to marry your sister, but in some african nations it is not.
Regarding punishments, in America public executions take place, in most of europe it has a stigma.

Actually I think for some crimes the death penalty is right. Not for crimes like apostaphy but the killing of children or mass pre meditated murder, certainly. What do you mean by public? In the US execustions are not public. The only people allowed to be present are lawyers, officers of the court and relatives of the guilty and in some cases relatives of the victims. Unlike Saudi Arabia where people are executed in public.

It's the hypocrasy I don't like with any religion. We are constantly bombarded with Islamic scholars spouting their faith is modern and peaceful. When others clearly use the faith as a weapon of indoctrination and hatred against the west. Inspiring suicide bombers etc.

I would like to see some proof of this, i have yet to read a poll where 40% want full on sharia law.
I think you will find it was 40%ish wanted some aspects of the law (namely the punishments in most cases) if you were basing this statement on the one on the bbc site

No several articles I have read in UK papers and on the web, even a debate on BBC 2.

Daily Express: The World's Greatest Newspaper :: News / Showbiz :: Muslim law reaches Britain

Sharia law | Today's issues | Guardian Unlimited

Couple of quotes from people in the articles and on newspaper sites:

Dr Sookhdeo – a Muslim-born academic who is a Christian convert – said: "The drive to implement sharia in the UK, both within the Muslim community and the British legal system, must be seen as part of Islam's impetus to dominate all societies it finds itself in."

Reacting to the study, Dr Kalim Siddiqui, director of the Iranian-backed Muslim Institute, said: "There are laws on the British statute book that are in direct conflict with the laws of Allah. We are Muslims first and last."

If you don't believe those articles take a look at:

Islamic Sharia Council

Sorry can't seem to find the 40% poll thing. It was a poll of Bristish Muslims regarding the implimentation of Shari'a law. I found it by chance looking for the name of the organisation campaigning for Shari'a in the UK

You do make me laugh sometimes ^^, on one hand you want state to be seperate from religion (correct me if this assumption is wrong) but you are unwilling to recognise other cultures. Britain is no longer a christian nation, it is a multi-cultural one i see no problem whatsoever recognising other cultures.

Glad I amuse you. Only to happy to help put a smile on your face . Was a bit of a rant meant to bait abit. But in essence it's true. British subjects in some countries put up with a lot of shit. Try staying in Jeddah or Riyahd for a few months I gaurantee you will change your opinion. If citizens from those countries were given the same treatment in the UK there would be an outcry. Not being able to practice their religion. Not even allowed any religious material of their religion.

I have witnessed a customs official in Jeddah Airport rip a necklace (St. Christopher) off an old lady (70'ish). When the son complained of the treatment they were all (party of 4) shoved away to side room. This is not an uncommen event in Saudi. We all know why they are tollerated, because of the oil, but it is not right.

Maybe if we gave them the same treatment they would change their ways. Give them a dose of their own medicine. They want equality and equal rights in the UK and get it. Should we not expect the same of them in their own country?

Yes I want state/religion totally seperate. kicking the Bishops out the House of Lords is still high on my wish list for the UK.

I really dont see the point of this statement :s
I think you will find that there is little you can do to the police regardless of the country, there are people like that everywhere.
Things arent exactly rosy here either you can be pulled in under the anti terrorism act with literally no evidence for up to 30 days?, and when your enquirey comes up you arent allowed to be there, know what you are charged with, or have your lawyer attend the hearing. You are assigned one by the state and the evidence is viewed behind closed doors so in reality you could be held for a very long time without even hearing the evidence against you or knowing what you are charged of.
I used go to places such as pakistan, india, dubai, trinadad fairly regularly (dad works as an engineer for BA) and have yet to see the kind of abuse you have mentioned on a widespread scale.
Maybe myself and my friends are luckly as you seem to travel to these places alot more assumably, but you will find elements of narrow minded individuals everywhere

Of all the places you mention only in Pakistan have I seen some rascism against whites. That was only in the North near Peshawar about 10 years ago. I have been travelling the world working in Aerospace for 17 years now, so yes I probably seen alot more. As previously stated go to saudi for a few months, I will be absolutely amazed if you returned with the same outlook.

Next time your in Dubai pm me, I'll happily buy you a drink in the Irish Village if you want

Things are far from rosy in the UK. When a convicted immigrant from Africa can rape six women (maybe more) in London and we cannot repatriate him back to Sierra Leone or Italy where he came from because he has no relatives there. How f*cked up is that!

Serial sex offender can stay in UK, judge rules - Telegraph

Or similar.

BBC NEWS | UK | Rapist asylum seeker due damages

 

[tierk]

Utterly hilarious your comparing the catholic churches inquisitions or clamp downs.....

Was just answering the point that he was making.

......Medievel practices still carried out in Islamic countries.......female castration - still very common practice .....

Please read the following link.......Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which makes it quite clear that female castration neither started in the Muslim world nor is it restricted to the Muslim world. In fact it has nothing to do with Islam and is, as explained in the article, a cultural thing that has spread from pre-christian Egypt to almost world wide proportions. With regards to the other practises i think what you fail to understand is that that is the way that they choose to live and these are the moral codes that they follow. You cannot come and impose your way of thinking on everyone, one hat doesnt ft all the people.

......Morals is one thing, it defines us as individuals. Yes, different societies get indoctrinated with differents sets of ideals. What I don't like is the hipocrasy. 48 Muslim countries signed a human rights declaration but only after a waiver on Shari'a law was added. .....

I fail to see what the problem is with this seeing as those 48 countries probably dont have a sizeable Christian or Jewish following in them?

......Pretty damn pointless really. Non Muslims in those countries have virtually no rights whatsoever......

Again i dont see the problem, if you dont like it or have a problem with it why on earth would you go to live or work there?

......In many Islamic countries you cannot, Saudi and Iran included. ......

Wrong, i cant speak for Saudi but Iran not only has churches but synagoges even and we have a very small number of Christians and Jews in Iran who are funnily enough allowed to practise their religion.

Christianity in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We have currently in Iran just over 25,000 Jews (Iranian Jews i might add) and they have 1 mp to represent them. In a country that has a population of over 70million that surely is not a bad thing considering their low numbers?

......If the predominantly Christian countries of the west behaved the same way it would be appalling. Why do we accept it from them?......

In the UK for example you have a sizeable minority that are Muslims and these Muslims are not all people that have just arrived in Britian but rather people that are born and grew up in the UK. At last count officially i belive two million or there abouts.

Islam in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second largest religious group in the UK for that matter. Slightly different from Iran (and i suspect the rest of the Middle East for that matter - with the exception the the holy land) where non muslims make up such a tiny amount of the population.

......It can be pretty much proven using historical facts. Why Islam has such a hang up about this subject is quite amusing. Both Catholic and the Islamic religion was spread by the sword. Just accept it and move on. It's old and boring subject.......

Using what historical facts? Its not something that has been proven one way or the other. The following article makes good reading......

Good Times and Bad Times in Lost America: The West, or, Conversion by the Sword by Christianity smells just as sweet

......The general muslim version of history in Spain is very one sided. the most peacefull reign of another country in the Earths history. Why on earth then did the people rise up. Or did El Cid do it on his own?.....

And wiki says.......

Islam in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or incase you dont like wiki........

Muslim Spain and European Culture

......I saw recently in a Emirates In Flight Magazine how some muslim scholars are even taking credit for the Renaissance due to the 800 year reign in Spain......

I didnt say anything about Spain being the reason for Europe coming out of the Dark Ages, though i am sure it played a part, what i did say was......

.......While most of Europe was in the Dark Ages, the Muslim world was in fact making progress, socially, economically and scientifically. In fact part of the reason that Europe was able to remove itself from the Dark Ages was due to contact with Muslims via the Crusades........

If you refuse to accept this as fact then i would suggest that you go do some reading about where the Arab world was in terms of science etc.

......The fact that it started 300 hundred years later in a different country seems to be overlooked. Not saying that was no education crossover. The Moors were known to be patrons of the arts and language but to directly link the two 300 hundred years after they were thrown out is laughable.......

The way you are making it out its as if i am the one making the claim which i dont.

......Apostaphy as stated previously carries a death penalty in Shari'a law. I believe the koran states it an act of high treason for want of better words. So I guessing those in power kept enforcing it........

As i said before you cannot force anyone to change religion. You might be able to get them to show ******dly that they are converted but in their homes its another story. Also the keywords for me to your answer are .....

......So I guessing those in power kept enforcing it........

......To be perfectly honest I believe religion has been used as nothing more than a control of the population by people who want power or want to keep it. Be it Catholic, Islam or whatever those in charge have generally craved power and ruled with an iron rod. In countries were the power is with religious leaders the law tends to be harsher and other religions not tolerated.......

Apart from in Palestine there are no sizebale minority religions unlike in the West that have large populations of Muslims living there. Until the creation of Israel all three major religions were welcome to come and live in Palestine and it was a perfect exmaple of how the Muslims have always been open to other faiths (the three main ones at least).

History has shown clearly that of all the faiths the Muslim faith has always been the most open to the other two major religions. Jews have been persecuted in the western world for thousands of years. This has spread now to the Middle East as a direct result of the conflict over Palestine. They ahve generally been left to live there lives in peace throughout the Middle East, until the current conflict started at the turn of the last century.

Islam itself is not in need of change but rather that Muslims need to do a better job of breaking down all the misconceptions that people have about it. There is no religion that i can think of that is not in essence peaceful and Islam is no different to this.

However, you are right in the sense that yes religion is used as a device to control the masses of people and this doesnt just apply to Muslims or Christains.

......Hope that's better Tierk, had a few mins but off to another meeting now

Love It!!!

 

[Chronictank]

Next time your in Dubai pm me, I'll happily buy you a drink in the Irish Village if you want

Hehe thanks
Busy today so will have pick this up some other time / asuming tierk doesnt say what i want to say first)

Gl in your meetings!

 

[Hawkwind]

Please read the following link.......Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which makes it quite clear that female castration neither started in the Muslim world nor is it restricted to the Muslim world. In fact it has nothing to do with Islam and is, as explained in the article, a cultural thing that has spread from pre-christian Egypt to almost world wide proportions. With regards to the other practises i think what you fail to understand is that that is the way that they choose to live and these are the moral codes that they follow. You cannot come and impose your way of thinking on everyone, one hat doesnt ft all the people.

OK, fair enough I can accept that they want to live under those rules, no problem. But when people in the UK are actively campaigning to have the same rules in British law I get slightly annoyed.

Regarding castration you can't ignore that it is seen as a problem in mainly Muslim countries of North Africa in Particular where it is still widespread amongst the nomadic tribes. That is from the UN reports. Also the charity set up by Michael Caines wife. The UN has in the past asked the Mullah's the speak out against it but they refused. That was back in the 80's when there was a vocal campaign in Europe against it.

I fail to see what the problem is with this seeing as those 48 countries probably dont have a sizeable Christian or Jewish following in them?

I wonder why. The only way people will go work in places like Saudi is if they get paid 2 or 3 x what they would in the UK. Even then many can't put up with the shit. Saudi now has a big problem as they cannot get decent people to go work there. They have a huge shortage of skilled labour particularly Engineering. A lot of companies moved out of Saudi to Dubai and the Gulf because of the easier and safer life for expat staff.

Again i dont see the problem, if you dont like it or have a problem with it why on earth would you go to live or work there?

Dubai and Doha is hardly Riyahd mate, I'm sure you will agree. I do not intend ever going back to Saudi. The few long months I spent there were enough to put me off for life. Yemen was not much better. To be honest most of the Arab's are great people. I have yet to meet an Omani who wasn't welcoming, helpful and genuinely nice. Far better people than you would meet in the UK these days, in the cities at least.

I am here for one reason only, quality of life. Money is great, lifestyle is decent and its pretty safe enviroment for my son. Although I may still be off to the states next year. I would return to Dubai given the right package.

Wrong, i cant speak for Saudi but Iran not only has churches but synagoges even and we have a very small number of Christians and Jews in Iran who are funnily enough allowed to practise their religion.

Christianity in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We have currently in Iran just over 25,000 Jews (Iranian Jews i might add) and they have 1 mp to represent them. In a country that has a population of over 70million that surely is not a bad thing considering their low numbers?

I have heard of people being hung for false prayer in Iran. This was from an Iranian mate I play Rugby with. He told me there were some small tribes in the north who refused Islam and just pretend to pray when rounded up by the clerics for prayer.

I wonder what the Iranian Jews think of their President spouting such hatred towards Jews and Israel? Don't suppose they would be allowed to speak out for fear of arrest etc...

btw. 1 church in Riyahd, inside the British Embassy. Some other consulates have them for their own citizens to. Only because the Consulate land is effectively not under Saudi rule so they cannot stop it.

In the UK for example you have a sizeable minority that are Muslims and these Muslims are not all people that have just arrived in Britian but rather people that are born and grew up in the UK. At last count officially i belive two million or there abouts.

Islam in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second largest religious group in the UK for that matter. Slightly different from Iran (and i suspect the rest of the Middle East for that matter - with the exception the the holy land) where non muslims make up such a tiny amount of the population.

2 million out of 65 million and many of them think we should change our laws to suit them.

Using what historical facts? Its not something that has been proven one way or the other. The following article makes good reading......

Good Times and Bad Times in Lost America: The West, or, Conversion by the Sword by Christianity smells just as sweet

And wiki says.......

Islam in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or incase you dont like wiki........

Muslim Spain and European Culture

I didnt say anything about Spain being the reason for Europe coming out of the Dark Ages, though i am sure it played a part, what i did say was......

Nice links. Read 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail'. 'Histories of the veil' and also another which I can't remember title of, will check tonight - something like 'the power of religion'.

Never said you did, mereley pointing out that some muslim scholars have a pretty blinkered view of history. The EK article was a case in point. I did state that moors were patrons or the arts etc. They certainly had a big influence on Spain and Southern Europe. The same could be said of the of the first crusade. Or the Greek Empire of Alexander. Every Empire leaves its mark.

If you refuse to accept this as fact then i would suggest that you go do some reading about where the Arab world was in terms of science etc.

I would totally agree it was more advanced in terms of art, medicine etc. The first written language was after all from what is now the Arab region. Alot of that science knowledge in turn came from merchant ties with the East (Far East). It is even thought that Marco Polo got most of his ideas from a Arab merchant/explorer Diary, can't remember the name, sorry.

The way you are making it out its as if i am the one making the claim which i dont.[/tierk]

No, was merely an example of how one sided some scholars see history. This is why history is never taken as fact unless the same can be found from several different reliable sources. History is a jigsaw puzzle and that is what makes it so interesting.

As i said before you cannot force anyone to change religion. You might be able to get them to show ******dly that they are converted but in their homes its another story.

I take it you mean from Christian/Jew to Islam because the other way is not acceptable in the Koran, punishable by death. A muslim woman cannot marry a christian man unless he converts to Islam first.

Apart from in Palestine there are no sizebale minority religions unlike in the West that have large populations of Muslims living there. Until the creation of Israel all three major religions were welcome to come and live in Palestine and it was a perfect exmaple of how the Muslims have always been open to other faiths (the three main ones at least).[/tierk]

Syria, has something like 17 different christian sects alone Egypt also has a large christian population.

History has shown clearly that of all the faiths the Muslim faith has always been the most open to the other two major religions. Jews have been persecuted in the western world for thousands of years. This has spread now to the Middle East as a direct result of the conflict over Palestine. They ahve generally been left to live there lives in peace throughout the Middle East, until the current conflict started at the turn of the last century.

The basis of most religions is peace, charity and humilty, it's shame these traits are in little evidence these days.

Islam itself is not in need of change but rather that Muslims need to do a better job of breaking down all the misconceptions that people have about it. There is no religion that i can think of that is not in essence peaceful and Islam is no different to this.

However, you are right in the sense that yes religion is used as a device to control the masses of people and this doesnt just apply to Muslims or Christains.

Could not agree more. Communities particularly in the UK need to take an look inwards and counter the hatred that is boiling away on the surface.

Love It!!!

How's life in Doha, settled in now? Have not been for nearly a year now. I expect some the new developments must really be taking shape by now. hardly recognise the Dubai skyline these days. Blink and another skyscraper has gone up.

 

[Laddey]

I wonder if somebody who never read this thread before would read a whole 9 pages of massive quotes and utter bullshit! I'll join the flame where now, although i wouldn't know where to start!

 

[Nate]

I just skimmed through on the last page, didn't really read any of it. What's all this then?

 

[Hawkwind]

Tierk,

I wonder why 99% of links regarding Islam being spread without the use of a sword use references from De Lacy O'Leary's book - Islam at a crossroads. Having read some of what's on the web it is absurd to believe that the moors conquered North Africa and Spain without any fighting.

Read a proper history book like Sir Thomas W Arnolds - the spread of Islam in the world. Not that you will be able to get it out here

As stated previously. I do not understand the Islamic worlds big hang up with this. Every empire was created via the sword and The moors were no different. The Roman, Greek, Moor even British were no different.

 

[Hawkwind]

I just skimmed through on the last page, didn't really read any of it. What's all this then?

A debate on something less trivial than Kiera knightley's bra size

 

[Laddey]

A debate on something less trivial than Kiera knightley's bra size

haha, they're tiny anyway!

 

[pikeh]

im sure someone will drag up a wikipedia quote on keiras bra size in a sec.

 

[tierk]

.....How's life in Doha, settled in now? Have not been for nearly a year now. I expect some the new developments must really be taking shape by now. hardly recognise the Dubai skyline these days. Blink and another skyscraper has gone up.

If you ever get here again in the near future give us a mail via here and i offer you the same offer you give to Chronic though i cant promise you it will be in a Irsh Village setting!!

Btw as always you make a lot of fair comments and points but i cant help feeling at times that you totally miss the point i am trying to make our that while you try to make a point you only seem to make my point more strongly for me. A good example is your comment about the 2million muslims in the Uk and that they want to change the laws of Britain and yet you expect muslim countries to change their laws for a even smaller proportion of the population.

Anyway i am ferrying around some German executives visiting here for a couple of days so i will try and squeeze a better resposne to your post at some point tonight or tomorow.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Tierk,

I wonder why 99% of links regarding Islam being spread without the use of a sword use references from De Lacy O'Leary's book - Islam at a crossroads. Having read some of what's on the web it is absurd to believe that the moors conquered North Africa and Spain without any fighting.

Read a proper history book like Sir Thomas W Arnolds - the spread of Islam in the world. Not that you will be able to get it out here

As stated previously. I do not understand the Islamic worlds big hang up with this. Every empire was created via the sword and The moors were no different. The Roman, Greek, Moor even British were no different.

That part of history is more or less true.
The moors crossed the mediterranean n landed in Spain w/o any opposition. From there they basically marched into France untill the franks stopped them at Poiters. Why?
Because the political situation in the many kingdoms of the northern goths who ruled the continent, was frequently unestable in most of europe. In Spain it was specially unestable, to the point that the general history belief (teached in history books) is that some of the goths nobleborns even aided the moors in their conquer in exchange of lands, gold, etc...

I will give credit were credit is due: the muslims brought several advances to agriculture, science, medicine, literature, arquitecture, etc... which spreaded from Granada to the rest of Europe. But as I said in another reply, were talking about 1000 years ago, while the reality nowadays is completly the opposite.

 

[Hawkwind]

If you ever get here again in the near future give us a mail via here and i offer you the same offer you give to Chronic though i cant promise you it will be in a Irish Village setting!!

Hehe, that's OK they know me in the Marriot bar

Btw as always you make a lot of fair comments and points but i cant help feeling at times that you totally miss the point i am trying to make our that while you try to make a point you only seem to make my point more strongly for me. A good example is your comment about the 2million muslims in the Uk and that they want to change the laws of Britain and yet you expect muslim countries to change their laws for a even smaller proportion of the population.

I really don't expect Saudi or any other country to change their laws. Whats grates me is that Muslims in the UK expect us to do it. However at the same British subjects from some of their countries get treated like crap and have to put up and shut up about it. It seems, especially under New Labour, we are only to happy to roll over and appease any small minority. Why should we?

Anyway i am ferrying around some German executives visiting here for a couple of days so i will try and squeeze a better resposne to your post at some point tonight or tomorow.

Good luck, off to hospital again. Two cracked, a lot of pain and bugger all sleep. Think I need a few hours down the Village