Referendum

[Wazzerphuk]

Scouse is like a 16 year old who's just been taught basic Marxism for GCSE sometimes.

 

[ECA]

Our economic and governmental systems aren't intertwined any more IMO.

lololololol

 

[Wij]

All property is theft + I am a Scouser = I have no reason to exist !

 

[Helme]

Scouse is like a 16 year old who's just been taught basic Marxism for GCSE sometimes.

Not only a communism label, but calling him a child as well, all for practically saying what each and everyone already knows - that democracy is pretty much an illusion. When was the last time your government actually let you decide something important, and stuck with your decision? Because here in Sweden, which is apparently one of the most democratic countries in the world(rofl) we've had 6 folk votes in total, in the last 90 years. 1, where an 82% majority was ignored. One had all 3 options being "no", etc.

We can go on about electing people representing our interests, but really those people aren't even available as choices in our parts of the world, and haven't been for quite some time. Scouse is wrong though when he says that government and economic systems aren't linked, they very much are, the problem really is that the economic systems are the ones in real power - which maybe isn't as evident here in Europe as it is in the states but corporate interests controls policy.

 

[throdgrain]

Scouse is like a 16 year old who's just been taught basic Marxism for GCSE sometimes.

lmfao

 

[ford prefect]

I think one of my main+ points for voting no would be that we elect a government that then enacts it's manifesto.
The problem with that is the government we elect typically has around 34-45% of the vote, not exactly a mandate from the people to enact a strong manifesto.

That is the theory, but lets face it - what we actually get is a lot of spin by politicians who are in a position where it is impossible to acurately judge what will or will not be viable when they get into government and then a lot of excuses when most of the manifesto is disguarded. It is also a closed system where far too much can go on behind the scenes in terms of spending, favours for political support, backhanders and the old boys network ect.

AV won't change that, but it is a step in a slightly better direction and if it had gone through in 1932 as it was meant to, the UK would probably be a lot more progressive with its politics today and quite a few political disasters and the resulting social disasters could probably have been curtailed before they got out of hand, by the simple premise of common sense rather than towing the party line.

And to everyone who says they dont vote because our democracy is a sham:

you're fucking assholes. Get up off your arses and vote and MAYBE DEMOCRACY WILL WORK A BIT FUCKING BETTER. I have no time for abstainers. If you want to register dissatisfaction, write C U N T on the paper and leave.

Absolutely. Their is never an excuse not to vote, even if you only go to spoil your ballet paper.

 

[Bugz]

AV won't change that, but it is a step in a slightly better direction and if it had gone through in 1932 as it was meant to, the UK would probably be a lot more progressive with its politics today and quite a few political disasters and the resulting social disasters could probably have been curtailed before they got out of hand, by the simple premise of common sense rather than towing the party line..

A very bold claim. Mind giving us some examples in 20th century Britain where this would be the case?

 

[rynnor]

Labour. Conservative. Lib Dem. Doesn't fucking matter really.

I'm not "dissatisfied". I'm just not a mug. Us plebs aren't allowed to vote on anything important and even if we were, our government isn't powerful enough to be able to do anything about it...

We don't live in a real democracy. How exactly can a sham work better?

Sadly - the older I get the more I realised that this is the true state of affairs in the world.

We are ruled by elites and we have no democracy.

In its origin everyone voted on important decisions - now you can only vote for a stooge who wont do what he said and will practically ignore the electorate and pander to the elites who put him there.

What exactly is the point in participating in such a charade - if your too dumb to see this please keep voting.

 

[Jimmy]

I'll be voting yes

 

[old.Tohtori]

Absolutely. Their is never an excuse not to vote, even if you only go to spoil your ballet paper.

It's not a duty though, it's a right.

I don't vote because i don't care and i don't complain about it. It's my choice not to vote, as much as it's your choice to vote for X.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Not only a communism label, but calling him a child as well, all for practically saying what each and everyone already knows - that democracy is pretty much an illusion. When was the last time your government actually let you decide something important, and stuck with your decision? Because here in Sweden, which is apparently one of the most democratic countries in the world(rofl) we've had 6 folk votes in total, in the last 90 years. 1, where an 82% majority was ignored. One had all 3 options being "no", etc.

We can go on about electing people representing our interests, but really those people aren't even available as choices in our parts of the world, and haven't been for quite some time. Scouse is wrong though when he says that government and economic systems aren't linked, they very much are, the problem really is that the economic systems are the ones in real power - which maybe isn't as evident here in Europe as it is in the states but corporate interests controls policy.

There's a way of reacting and responding to such problems with sensible, reasoned reactions. Scouse doesn't do this and just shouts "usurp the powers that be!!1112287" and I find it quite amusing. Haven't said anything about agreeing or disagreeing with him, just the way he presents his opinions are very simplistic sometimes.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Large amount of specious logic in that link.

 

[ford prefect]

The main issue with the current system is that it gives certain politicians guaranteed seats elction after election, with little or no chance of change and very few questions asked. Look at the expenses scandle a while back for example, many of the politicians who were guilty of the worst abuses of that system had been in so called "Safe Seats" and in those cases there had been very little accountability for quite some time and in turn in some cases at least, I think it is fair to say that some MP's (not all) have not put the interests of their constituency first and foremost, but rather their own or their parties interests first. The AV system does address that, but as mentioned earlier, it isn't exactly bullet proof.

The obvious downside, whereby smaller parties will find it more difficult to win seats. As I am sure many of you will agree, not a problem in terms of parties like the BNP or UKIP, but other minority parties with worthwhile agenda's will struggle and while it could be argued that none of these minority parties have the experience or political and social knowledge to run a coherent government in and of themselves, their voices are important on key issues. In many cases I suspect many of these politicians will migrate to one of the big three.

 

[Scouse]

What makes me laugh the hardest is that the second I say "our democracy is a sham" or "we don't vote on our economic system" - both things which are as obvious as "organised religion is a load of shite" - people immediately shout "commie" despite me repeatedly saying communism is wank.

Dumbers gonna be dumb?

 

[throdgrain]

The obvious downside, whereby smaller parties will find it more difficult to win seats. As I am sure many of you will agree, not a problem in terms of parties like the BNP or UKIP, but other minority parties with worthwhile agenda's will struggle and while it could be argued that none of these minority parties have the experience or political and social knowledge to run a coherent government in and of themselves, their voices are important on key issues. In many cases I suspect many of these politicians will migrate to one of the big three.

You dont work for the BBC do you?

 

[Jupitus]

I'll be voting for MSSE

 

[SheepCow]

Sadly - the older I get the more I realised that this is the true state of affairs in the world.

We are ruled by elites and we have no democracy.

In its origin everyone voted on important decisions - now you can only vote for a stooge who wont do what he said and will practically ignore the electorate and pander to the elites who put him there.

What exactly is the point in participating in such a charade - if your too dumb to see this please keep voting.

If that's what you believe, make sure you vote. Vote and spoil your ballot, abstaining sends absolutely no message.

 

[SheepCow]

The obvious downside, whereby smaller parties will find it more difficult to win seats. As I am sure many of you will agree, not a problem in terms of parties like the BNP or UKIP, but other minority parties with worthwhile agenda's will struggle and while it could be argued that none of these minority parties have the experience or political and social knowledge to run a coherent government in and of themselves, their voices are important on key issues. In many cases I suspect many of these politicians will migrate to one of the big three.

Strange that, I've heard a lot of people saying under AV they'd vote Green with 1st pref, then one of "the three" with their 2nd pref.

I think the statistics that would come out of an AV election would be extremely interesting, it'd be much easier to see what the people actually think.

 

[rynnor]

If that's what you believe, make sure you vote. Vote and spoil your ballot, abstaining sends absolutely no message.

Everything sends a message - not voting robs the MP's of legitimacy.

 

[SheepCow]

Everything sends a message - not voting robs the MP's of legitimacy.

Not really, it's too easily confused with "I'm too stupid to know how to vote" and "I'm too lazy to vote"

 

[Scouse]

If that's what you believe, make sure you vote. Vote and spoil your ballot, abstaining sends absolutely no message.

I disagree. Voting sends the message "I think you're listening", when they're not. Also, it lends legitimacy to the whole bollocks process.

Ah:

Everything sends a message - not voting robs the MP's of legitimacy.

Agreed. Although whether they're "legitimate" or not matters not one jot. Being an MP's a non-job in the grand scheme of things.

It's like being King of Lithuania. You may be a king, but there's fuck all you can achieve.

Not really, it's too easily confused with "I'm too stupid to know how to vote" and "I'm too lazy to vote"

Like you're confusing someone who cares if you vote with someone who has any power worth voting for?


Like I've said before, I've spoiled my ballot, voted a couple of different ways and plain not voted. If I vote it's because the government of the hour is going to do something particularly stupid and voting gets me out of the house. But I'm under no illusions that anything we vote on will ever make much difference because we don't live in a democracy.

Voting for X-Factor contestants is probably more worthwhile.

 

[rynnor]

Not really, it's too easily confused with "I'm too stupid to know how to vote" and "I'm too lazy to vote"

So is spoiling the ballot - 'too stupid to vote'.

 

[Will]

YouTube - Is your Cat confused about the referendum on the voting system on the 5th May?

 

[SheepCow]

So is spoiling the ballot - 'too stupid to vote'.

Not really, it's a deliberate act that in my experience is translated to "I don't like any of them" votes by the pundits/reporters. Whereas not voting seems to be typically read as "can't be arsed"

 

[rynnor]

Not really, it's a deliberate act that in my experience is translated to "I don't like any of them" votes by the pundits/reporters. Whereas not voting seems to be typically read as "can't be arsed"

Nah - its just an attempt to keep the dis-satisfied within the voting system so that they still appear in the turnout.

If you really hate the current system dont participate.