Rebate

[Embattle]

Should we give up our 3.1 billion pound rebate?

Any one want to give an idea for a different "gesture" for France?

 

[ECA]

The UK is the second highest net contributor in the EU behind only germany.
I think if anything, we should scrap the CAP, and kick out spain for being freeloading fuckbags.

I think herr schroeder and madame chirac should stop playing up foreign issues to cover for their weak domestic policies, that kind of thing used to lead to wars.

 

[Tom]

The idea of Europe as an entity stopping intra-European wars is somewhat laughable. Democracies do not tend to declare war upon eachother.

 

[DaGaffer]

Just Read Colossus by Nial Ferguson. Basically its about why the US is an empire in denial, but it also has big sections on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the EU and China (as 'alternative empires'). Pretty depressing tbh and it also points out the lunacy of the CAP and how it contributes to the problem of fair trade. It was a very timely read, and made me think about why no-one is using that as a stick to beat the French up when Uncle Gordon is off on his 'save Africa' gig and G8 is only a few weeks away.

 

[dysfunction]

France gets £7bn(?) CAP funding and the UK only get about £2bn(?) funding....

No wonder France doesnt want to give up the CAP. Britain should fight for that rebate since they are being shafted elsewhere....

 

[Embattle]

Just Read Colossus by Nial Ferguson. Basically its about why the US is an empire in denial, but it also has big sections on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the EU and China (as 'alternative empires'). Pretty depressing tbh and it also points out the lunacy of the CAP and how it contributes to the problem of fair trade. It was a very timely read, and made me think about why no-one is using that as a stick to beat the French up when Uncle Gordon is off on his 'save Africa' gig and G8 is only a few weeks away.

Yeah I've heard of that description about the US before, on a program which looked at the British Empire. I agrre that thinking about CAP at the same time as talking about debt relief and considering any ideas about improving trade with African countries does certainly have a certain sense of irony about it.

I guess its good we canned having a referendum on the EU constitution if we had it and then voted NO which was more than likely going to be the outcome Chirac could of then blamed us for the failure of the constitution.

 

[]AC[dRuM]

America has gone all out to create a clear left right divide in Europe. European politics on the whole is far too left wing for the US to stomach

 

[Will]

The UK is the second highest net contributor in the EU behind only germany.
I think if anything, we should scrap the CAP, and kick out spain for being freeloading fuckbags.

I think herr schroeder and madame chirac should stop playing up foreign issues to cover for their weak domestic policies, that kind of thing used to lead to wars.

Hmnnn...I know straight off that Holland is the biggest contributor per person in Europe. But they've been giving me beer all night, and even keeping my spelling correct is hard work at the moment.

 

[DaGaffer]

Hmnnn...I know straight off that Holland is the biggest contributor per person in Europe. But they've been giving me beer all night, and even keeping my spelling correct is hard work at the moment.

And the Dutchies should be saying the same thing; why I am paying to keep France looking pretty? (which, in a nutshell, describes the CAP). Brits and Germans pay most in absolute terms though.

 

[xane]

Just Read Colossus by Nial Ferguson.

I read his previous book Empire, which was well balanced and a good read, I might get Colossus too.

 

[TdC]

The UK is the second highest net contributor in the EU behind only germany.

maybe you should read up some more ECA, cos that's rubbish.

 

[TdC]

And the Dutchies should be saying the same thing; why I am paying to keep France looking pretty?

funnilly enough, I've not yet heard this in the streets. tbh the dutch are very pro-europe at heart, and are happy-ish (politico-speak for "must" I believe) to do more to keep the wheels trundling along.

 

[Chilly]

maybe you should read up some more ECA, cos that's rubbish.

Well the bbc got its figures wrong then, and so did the EU - since that is where they came from. Look

ok its from 2003 but its not that out of date.

 

[Airalith]

The only reason this argument is even happening is cos the french/germans dont want the heat from the fact the constitution has fucked up.
The distribution of funds is very unfair in my opinion. isnt Germany in recession? why the hell do they give so much?
French farmer subsidies are so silly, it basically there so no one out side of Europe (that'll be Africa then) can compete, talk about keeping the little guy down.

Communism ftw imo

 

[Tom]

TDC is perhaps thinking of the total contribution per head, rather than per nation.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Finland rules!

 

[TdC]

TDC is perhaps thinking of the total contribution per head, rather than per nation.

my bad. it was early

still, it's a lot. considering that there are 16 million dutchies of which only 7 million make up the workforce. I'm not a demographics specialist but the number-jumble makes me think that Holland rocks economically and that it's on the top 15 richest nations of the world list. strangely it also makes me wonder why my parliament is telling me that things aren't going really well and that we have to be careful :/

 

[Bodhi]

Why do people think that a continent in which (up until very recently) the countries had been at war with each other for thousands of years are suddenly going to start getting along and agreeing on stuff. Remember, BOTH World Wars started in Europe less than 100 years ago. France and Germany have always hated each other and always will (think England/Scotland), they aint kidding anyone with this European solidarity bullshit.As you can tell, I think the EU is a really shit idea.

 

[Tom]

The difference Bodhi, is that all the countries of Europe are now democracies, and are no longer ruled by egomaniacs.

 

[Bodhi]

The difference Bodhi, is that all the countries of Europe are now democracies, and are no longer ruled by egomaniacs.

So elected egomaniacs then. Doesn't mean the countries like each other any more.

 

[ECA]

The difference Bodhi, is that all the countries of Europe are now democracies, and are no longer ruled by egomaniacs.

Napoleonic wars and such famous battles you may have seen such as waterloo took place when france and the uk were democracies.

World war one, france and the uk were democracies, germany wasnt.

World war two, both france, the uk, and germany were democracies at the time.
There have been many wars between democracies in the last century.

Lets all rejoice at "we can't have a war now, it would be annihilation we all have too much to lose", sounds familiar to me.......



EDIT: also, schroeder, chirac and blair are not egomaniacs? what planet have you been living on?

 

[Tom]

Napoleonic wars - who was Emporer of france again? How many people in England had the vote?

WW1 - Started by Austria, ended in remaining royal families in Europe being retired.
WW2 - Started by Hitler - hardly a democracy now.

 

[DaGaffer]

Napoleonic wars and such famous battles you may have seen such as waterloo took place when france and the uk were democracies.

World war one, france and the uk were democracies, germany wasnt.

World war two, both france, the uk, and germany were democracies at the time.
There have been many wars between democracies in the last century.

Lets all rejoice at "we can't have a war now, it would be annihilation we all have too much to lose", sounds familiar to me.......



EDIT: also, schroeder, chirac and blair are not egomaniacs? what planet have you been living on?

Blimey, where did you learn history? Napoleonic France a democracy? Willhelm's Germany a democracy? Nazi Germany a democracy? The maxim is that democracies don't go to war against each other, and its broadly true. Of course, the definition of 'democracy' is pretty broad, and generally its safe to say stable democracies don't fight each other. And even if you don't completely buy into the argument, and keep your democracy definitions nice and broad, there are probably about 25 examples of democracies fighting each other in the whole of recorded history:

Greek Wars, 5th and 4th Centuries BCE (fair enough, it was 3000 years ago and the idea of democracy was brand new)

Punic Wars, 2nd and 3rd Centuries BCE (we don't know enough about the Cartheginians to tell)

American Revolution, 1775-1783 (a war to set up a democracy if you take the American perspective)

American Indian Wars, 1776-1890 (if you accept Native Americans had democracy in the accepted sense, some tribes did, some didn't).

French Revolutionary Wars, 1793-1799 (Britain, Holland and the Swiss had a pop at revolutionary France, a very unstable democracy)

Franco-American Naval War, 1797-1799 (more a skirmish than a war)

Anglo-American War, 1812-1815 (this one is a clear cut example)

Franco-Roman War, 1849 (new and unstable, both republics a year old)

American Civil War, 1861-65 (probably the biggest democracy v. democracy fight in history, although the north didn't see the south as a true democracy)

Spanish-American War, 1898 (this is fairly clearly a war between democracies)

Anglo-Boer War, 1899-1901 (as is this, sort of).

First World War, 1914-18 (The Reichstag was elected, but had no power)

Occupation of the Ruhr, 1923 (New Weimar republic - can argue it was an extension of WWI as the French were pursuing reparations)

Second World War, 1940-45 (Allies v. Finland not Germany, a war with democracies caused by alliances with dictatorships)

First Indo-Pak War, 1947-49 (both new and unstable)

Lebanese Civil War, 1978, 1982 (Isreal v. Lebanon)

Croatian War of Independence, 1991-92 (new and unstable)

Ecuador vs. Peru. Border War, 1995

Kosovo War, 1999 (new and unstable)

Fourth Indo-Pak War (Kargil War) 1999 (could argue Pakistan had reverted to dictatorship)


Still a much better record than all the wars fought by other political systems.

 

[maxi]

No.

 

[throdgrain]

Bleep