Realm Balanced babble...

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by walkerb
lol.

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Conclusion of this thread tbh.

 

[case-rigantis]

face facts hibs are overpowered period it`s not an argument it`s a fact they are overpowereed because they have such versatile classes

hib
chanter...pet..pbaoe..stun
warden..buffs..styles..shield..heals..pbt
hero..very big spear and moose mode

alb
ice wizzy..PBAOE
earth theurg 6 second PBT
armsman..polearm

are you seriously telling me you would rather have an earth theurg over a warden? or an ice wizard over a chanter? where is an armsmans special ability?

in hib pretty good rvr group..
warden..pbt ..heals..buffs..
chanter PBAOE..stun..pet
bard..heals..mez..best speed

leaves space for 5 more in group and has everything a good rvr group needs

to do the same in alb..
earth theurg..pbt.
minstrel ..speed..stun..pet
sorc..mez
ice wizzy..PBAOE
cleric..heals..buffs
friar ..secondary heals as per bard in group

erm that leaves 2 spots for tanks...how exactly are 2 tanks gonna protect effectively 6 casters against hib tanks that can turn into moose mode?!?

 

[Coren]

Originally posted by Teador

A good Alb group has 7 classes that can deal damage, that should be enough, right?

-Cleric (NO Damage)
-Friar (Melee, good Damage)
-Air Theurgist (good Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Matter Cabalist (good Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Mind Sorcerer (Decent Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Mercenary (Melee, good Damage)
-Paladin (Melee, decent Damage)
-Minstrel (Melee, good Damage)

Guess you mean this group then?

First of all: matter cabbie doesn't belong there.
2nd: when we're talking about 'damage dealers' we mean classes that deal lots of damage (LW/hybrid heroes, LW champs, chanters for example), not classes that are able to do damage, but don't do noticable amounts (like casters without debuff/someone to debuff for them, 1h shield tanks, minstrels, mind sorcs etc).

The only class from the 6 base classes in an alb group able to do big amounts of damage are the theurgist (air specced and not facing hibs too often ), possibly the paladin (when specced 2h, but lets not go there, since it would only mean getting a slambot in the remaining 2 spots) and the friar (only when he gives up his role as backup healer and melees all the time).

To get some real dmg output in the remaining 2 spots you could use a body sorc/wiz (2 spots for something hibs get in 1), mercs, pole/hybrid armsmen, 50 flex reavers.

Which gives alb groups 3.5 (friar only 0.5 if he's also backup healer ) real dmg dealers when optimal.

Anyway:

lol

 

[eben]

Originally posted by Teador
and a Fire wizard can hit for 750+

Erm no that's "bullshit", as you like to say. My 50 fire wiz never hits yellows for that kind of damage, even with crits. She hits yellows for between 200 and 450 typically. I can supply plenty of screenies to back this up if necessary.

I only know one body sorc (Xorta) and have never had the pleasure of RvRing with her, so don't talk about that either. I'd love to be able to debuff my own nukes.

 

[pbuck]

Good mid/alb groups can take out good hib groups but its very hard to make balanced groups in albion and almost impossible in midgard(no aug/mend healers shamans).RvR is pretty much ruined for the casual gamer anyway,you cant possibly play 2-3 hours,group random people and expect to stand a chance when facing equal numbers np/eclipse/mafia/warders.Rvr is only good for the people who can get good groups,for others its quite boring and will make them quit/cancel eventually.

 

[Genius-Ino]

Originally posted by eben
Erm no that's "bullshit", as you like to say. My 50 fire wiz never hits yellows for that kind of damage, even with crits. She hits yellows for between 200 and 450 typically. I can supply plenty of screenies to back this up if necessary.

Imho, teador has played wiz for ages and was quite good at it. Maybe you're a full gimp spec, or you just take resistant mobs ^^
And besides that 750 was prolly a crit shot imo as he said it CAN etc ...

my 2 cents

and about analysing a video game : lol =/

 

[zapzap]

Problem with RA's on this server is:
Good group only need to use them every ½ hour so they always up when needed.
If this was a big server baod Gp sos Bof wouldnt be up 80 % of time u meet a good group.
Bad for us mids on prydwen but probelly makes sence on a big server to counter instean mess and stun.
Still I think no resist should be able to pass 50 or 60 %
Its a joke when My pbae full buffed does 9 x 86 - 602 on BRF still had power for 3 more pbae but wtf sprint run around and hope u still there when the 30 sec has gone



Careless-Zapsi

 

[Shike]

good post Jenkz imho, quite fairly unbiased for once Not so much bullshit in it as some others claim, augshammy with 32+ in aug in RvR, very fun class to play... rofl

imo, PBT should be moved to classes that sustain more damage in mid and alb, perhaps Skalds should have it or even shammys (in augline) to make them more attractive to play in a way that benefits Mid a bit more. In alb maybe Friars should have it in their Enhancementline to balance it out a bit, PBT wins a lot of battles as it is today, as Jenkz said, hibbies with stacked PBT+BAoD is just silly and nearly impossible to take down since u cant slam warden with dualPBT and negate it that way, u cant Nuke them down so easy either since they have access to IP and decent HP and so on. Hibs claim that they are underpowered, it just make me wanna /cry.

Alb is a good and balanced realm, It shouldnt be touched at all now I think, Mid need something, Hib need a slight tweak to tone it down. (yeah I know a lot of hibbies is gonna cry they all are gimps and need more powwa, I dont care tbh, I have played all 3 realms now and know quite well how all 3 works, Hibernia is way too easy to play in imho)

Somehow I sense that the upcoming 1.62 will have some hibbylove which will make it even more unbalancing which in the end will make a lot of people quit and leave for other games. Yeah i know that _some_ hibclasses need a little love, I just hope only they that really need it get it aswell.

oh well.... summer is soon here thank god

 

[Turamber]

Moving pbt to the Paladin chant line makes sense to me ... but then I'm a bit strange

 

[eben]

Originally posted by Genius-Ino
Imho, teador has played wiz for ages and was quite good at it. Maybe you're a full gimp spec, or you just take resistant mobs ^^
And besides that 750 was prolly a crit shot imo as he said it CAN etc ...

my 2 cents

and about analysing a video game : lol =/

Well if that's the case why not mention the crit on the hib caster too? If 750 was a crit then it should be mentioned, as the original remarks suggests that wiz nukes are far stronger than what I see when I RvR.

BTW I'm full fire, if you call that gimp spec

 

[liste]

a body/spirit cabalist can debuff his own nukes, and they're lifetaps. with MoC, that makes the caba pretty much imortal for 30 secs, excluding CC

 

[AzuratMinimus]

Originally posted by Teador
Bullshit. Every shaman is specced to at least 32 Augmentation, and if the shaman didn't then he's a complete idiot. And Aug Healers are around a lot, Aug/Mend healers rock, Pac healers rock too, just the hypocrits on Prydwen here only want to play buffblades. The classes are there, they just aren't played, on Prydwen. Go take a look on excal and you'll see plenty of them.

So far i only know one aug/mend healer that groups often, and he respecced away from pac only cause he knew we had enough pac healers in guild. Most healers don´t specc high aug, since they do have to mezz and heal. This leads to that mids very rarely have the healer resist buffs, and almost never above 16%.

For aug shamans, most specc 32 or 37 aug, that is thoose that actually do group and not the buffbots which are numerous. Means that mids at most gets the 16% buffs, mostly just the 8% buffs.

Compare this to hib or alb that has a class with 1.5 specc points that has the resist buffs. For hib the warden basicly has to specc for 6 sec pbt to not be gimped and it´s not that uncommon to find a friar with loads of enhancement specc. This means that hibs and albs basicly get at least 16% if not 24% resist buffs for free. It´s not like friars or wardens are uncommon classes.

 

[scarffs]

exactly azu..

Teador you are talking out of your arse when you say that albs are better because they have more damage dealers in a group ... loooool
How many damage dealers do you need if you have always the upper hand in cc ( insta mezz + grp purge + brilliant aura ) , the aoe damage to kill everything in 2 casts and the tanks to effectively kill suport in 2-3 swings of which the first is a stun ?
At least admit the thruth.
I must say the hib gank squads are good players, they take out support first after the mezz and play well together.
But against a well organised hib group no mid or alb group can win, period. This imbalance brings zergs to life thus fucking up the game. Then you come here complaining about zergs you created and start your own 2grps of overpoweredness...

Bah

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Nice post Jenkz.

 

[zapzap]

So far i only know one aug/mend healer that groups often, and he respecced away from pac only cause he knew we had enough pac healers in guild. Most healers don´t specc high aug, since they do have to mezz and heal. This leads to that mids very rarely have the healer resist buffs, and almost never above 16%.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think i know him

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by eben
Erm no that's "bullshit", as you like to say. My 50 fire wiz never hits yellows for that kind of damage, even with crits. She hits yellows for between 200 and 450 typically. I can supply plenty of screenies to back this up if necessary.

I only know one body sorc (Xorta) and have never had the pleasure of RvRing with her, so don't talk about that either. I'd love to be able to debuff my own nukes.

I was talking about DEBUFFED damage?

A chanter can hit for 570 with MoM 2 when he debuffs (CAP)

If a sorc debuffs for a fire wizard then he will hit for amount like 750+

read the post instead of trying to disagree

i played a fire wizard, i know the debuffed damage, i know the average damage.

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Coren
Guess you mean this group then?

First of all: matter cabbie doesn't belong there.
2nd: when we're talking about 'damage dealers' we mean classes that deal lots of damage (LW/hybrid heroes, LW champs, chanters for example), not classes that are able to do damage, but don't do noticable amounts (like casters without debuff/someone to debuff for them, 1h shield tanks, minstrels, mind sorcs etc).

The only class from the 6 base classes in an alb group able to do big amounts of damage are the theurgist (air specced and not facing hibs too often ), possibly the paladin (when specced 2h, but lets not go there, since it would only mean getting a slambot in the remaining 2 spots) and the friar (only when he gives up his role as backup healer and melees all the time).

To get some real dmg output in the remaining 2 spots you could use a body sorc/wiz (2 spots for something hibs get in 1), mercs, pole/hybrid armsmen, 50 flex reavers.

Which gives alb groups 3.5 (friar only 0.5 if he's also backup healer ) real dmg dealers when optimal.

Anyway:

lol

anyway: if you have more damage dealers you can interrupt all of their casters, thought of that?

good hib group has only 2-3 tanks, that's not enough to interrupt both healers and casters.

and what's wrong with the cabby?

nearsight druid

nearsight bard

takes 4 secs, you win

and if you have time left, nearsight chanters

you win 100% sure

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by scarffs
At least admit the thruth.

sure

don't give mids decent group abilities, it makes zerkers even more overpowered than they already are.

 

[Coren]

Originally posted by Teador
anyway: if you have more damage dealers you can interrupt all of their casters, thought of that?

If being able to interrupt casters means you're a 'damage dealer' then Hib groups suddenly seem to have quite a lot aswell.

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Coren
If being able to interrupt casters means you're a 'damage dealer' then Hib groups suddenly seem to have quite a lot aswell.

yes i wonder why the druid or bard would hit with their weapon...

or wardens.... but a smart warden specs regrowth....

 

[AzuratMinimus]

It´s not like a bard have trouble interupting things with dds and amnesia. Not that uncommon that it ends up with a warden chasing me either or that they use the snare + damage RA to interupt. That means hibs got 7 damage dealers also in that point of wiev.

 

[j000 d000d]

And why do people think that Hibs or Albs will have their RAs ready for every fight?

 

[vermillon]

Originally posted by Teador

good hib group has only 2-3 tanks, that's not enough to interrupt both healers and casters.

2-3 tanks only?? Thank god Albs can have more tanks in a balanced group.
.
<looks around>
..
...
<burst into laughter>

 

[vermillon]

Originally posted by Teador
And why do people think that Hibs or Albs will have their RAs ready for every fight?

Because good groups wait/rest until they got at least some RAs ready for the next fight. Ofc there are ocations you can't avoid fights with no RAs ready.

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by vermillon
Because good groups wait/rest until they got at least some RAs ready for the next fight. Ofc there are ocations you can't avoid fights with no RAs ready.

if i used BAoD with my chanter then i wouldn't go sit in DC for the next 30 mins or something ;\

 

[old.Aure]

Originally posted by AzuratMinimus
Compare this to hib or alb that has a class with 1.5 specc points that has the resist buffs. For hib the warden basicly has to specc for 6 sec pbt to not be gimped and it´s not that uncommon to find a friar with loads of enhancement specc. This means that hibs and albs basicly get at least 16% if not 24% resist buffs for free. It´s not like friars or wardens are uncommon classes.

You are correct you must spec nurture as a warden. The main choices are usually do you go beyond 45 nurture or do you raise your regrowth. Warden regrowth is a horrendously gimped spell line, bar en regen at 2. Mainly because you have to buy RAs to make it work, there are no instas, cures, the hot is pathetic and the end redux buffs dont work with the haste. Wardens do spec regrowth for heals of course. Its just the line is not very good. Perhaps if Mythic looked at the design of the warden and gave an option, then pbt would not be so common. It may help the overall game perhaps.

Wardens are a decent group class. It can be extremely boring being towed around the battleground. Heals, u might get one off before being targetted, no healer ra, like wild healing, no MOC etc, so its just badly designed. A mez/stun unstacks synched pbt. Mid stuns and stuff are always a problem for wardens. The Warden is blessed and cursed with pbt, 44+10 blades hitting Traia for 50 is not really much fun. Resists cost mana, heals do, pbt burns it etc.

However rvr has changed since I last played. Gone are the days of first mez, slam/assist and kill. Now it seems it is pull to chanters baod/gp and stuff. Now buying twf is essential, whereas before it was a bad idea. That may be part of the problem, hence they altered some Alb classes.

I think if you read some of the US boards, the Mid melee groups appear to be the in thing and hard to stop. There may need to be some tweaks to Hib classes, perhaps toning down some, beefing up others. There's barely any wardens or bards active in US due to them being too passive or in bards case so singled-out. Yet way too many of certain classes.

Whats wrong with Shamans, dont they get a castable en regen that doesnt drop when they die? Bards I'm sure would like that.

 

[eben]

Originally posted by Teador
I was talking about DEBUFFED damage?

A chanter can hit for 570 with MoM 2 when he debuffs (CAP)

If a sorc debuffs for a fire wizard then he will hit for amount like 750+

read the post instead of trying to disagree

i played a fire wizard, i know the debuffed damage, i know the average damage.

I read your post already...here it is to refresh your ailing memory:

____________

No, with 2fg albs you get all the abilities again, you just don't get those abilities you only need only once (Mezz, Nearsight). But you get some other things extra if you do 2fg instead of 1fg.

2fg Hibs is just 2fg of the same but again, and with no extras, and some stuff rendered useless for the 2nd group (Mezz,
Debuff), it's not even close to 4fg effectively.

A good Alb group has 7 classes that can deal damage, that should be enough, right?

And BAoD will be 30 seconds, and probably no-one has ever been so organised to have 2 chanters use it together so it will last for 60 seconds.

And a Enchanter with MoM 2 caps his light nuke at 570, and a Fire wizard can hit for 750+, it's quite a big difference. Also, the Chanter's nukes cost double the amount of power.

____________

Now you read your own post and tell me where in there it mentions debuffs. Of course your gonna say "can" implies that they have the debuff, but I'm not a mind reader. If 750 includes debuff then say it.

I concede that 750 may be possible with debuffs (I have never had the pleasure), but without debuffs in my experience it's not on, which is why I disagreed.

So please don't ask me to reread that post when your ambiguity caused the issue in the first place.

One other question: did you play your wiz in the days before SC? Something else to bear in mind I might add.

 

[old.Isos]

damn Im glad there giving sorcs some better things in 1,60

Sorcs are no way as effective as bards or healers becuse no insta mezz, and a mezzed sorc is good for about 0(-13582175)

I so hate when your running along with your group, then your mezzed out of nowehere and in comes 2 chanters and start nuking, before you even can target them or try and run away more than half of the group is dead. thats not very skill based

but then I belive hibs do play well, they got alot of organisation since they start exping with pbaoe, they know what target to kill first and know how to kill effectivly with pbaoe, mid is also learning this latley but I hardly see any alb groups using it. Would love to see albs get an insta mezz to, the as stated before pbt is often what helps win battles and having it on a scaled high HP class is way to good =(

and I think group purge should be looked over, when encountering hibs and we actually do get off mezz first the druid just GP and and bard insta mezz you back, silly and depressing,
would be much better if they maybe took away AE mezz overall and just have single mezz.

 

[Jenkz]

Originally posted by old.Aure
Whats wrong with Shamans, dont they get a castable en regen that doesnt drop when they die? Bards I'm sure would like that.

(coming from an alb perspective, so cut me some slack)
theres very little "wrong" with shamans, their cave line is strong, their aug line is strong, their heal line like the warden/friar, are weak.

however, unlike the warden/friar, as the "secondary" healer class in their realm they are classed as a caster hybrid, not a melee hybrid, which means they only get 1x point per level - so its spec high in one line, or mediumly accross two.

the warden/friar have absolutely no problem achieving at least the 16% resist buffs, in some cases they go all the way for some of the 24%s. if a shaman does this they are merely nothing more than a buffbot, and buffbots are not fun to play in rvr groups.

my posts here were not to make out that midgard were completely underpowered, or that hibernia was completely overpowered, but more to highlight some impossibilities in albion ever getting things like all resist debuffs, midgard never getting all 8-24% resist buffs, albion and midgard never getting RvR active 6sec bladeturn.

the classes are there in all realms sure as teador rightly says, and possibly somewhere out there someone is insane enough to have an active rvr spirit cabalist, or a RR8 45 earth theurgist etc.

thanks for the replies, majority have been damned decent

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by old.Isos
hibs do play well, they got alot of organisation since they start exping with pbaoe, they know what target to kill first and know how to kill effectivly with pbaoe, mid is also learning this latley but I hardly see any alb groups using it.

GoP have been building RvR groups around 3-4 ice wizzies in the last week and it does work very effectively. Not all of our wizzies have enough RP's to have MoC yet but we do have a few tanks that are nearly as good

With ice wizzies getting the casting speed reduced in the next patch this could become an even more viable spec, and an even more effective RvR tactic.