Realm Balanced babble...

[Jenkz]

At request of the request of the middies, I rewrote my babble from this thread: http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=55003

and sent it off to sanya.

for anyone interested the modified post is below:

Sanya, and Mythic:

Hi, I play a level 50 Cleric in Servants of the Lake (79mil RP) on Prydwen (A Europeaon Server). Recently on Prydwen, as everywhere I suspect, there has been debate about the three realm balance. Below are my own personal thoughts which one of my Midgardian servermates requested me to email to you :


This discussion is more about realm balanced than class balance, and will firstly look at the 3 realms in terms of:
1. Resist Buffs
2. Buffs
3. PBT (Pulsing Blade Turn)
4. Crowd Control
5. Speed

A "balanced" RvR group containing as much of the above as possible for each three realms may look something like:

Hibernia:

- Warden (24% resists, 6sec PBT, in scale)
- Bard (speed, insta CC, in reinforced)
- Druid (heal/buff specced: 16% resists, buffs, group instas)

Albion:

- Minstrel (speed, limited CC)
- Theurgist (usually 10sec PBT, very rarely 6sec pbt, limited CC, in cloth)
- Cleric (heal/buff specced: 16% resists, buffs, group instas)
- Friar (16-24% resists)
- Sorceror (CC, in cloth)

Midgard:

- Skald (speed)
- Runemaster (usually 10sec PBT, rarely 6sec pbt, in cloth)
- Aug/mend Shaman (buffs/heals/16% resists)
- Aug/mend Healer (group instas/16% resists)
- Pac Healer (insta CC, in chain)

--------------

6. Resist Debuffs

Hibernia: Mana Enchanter (h/c/m) / Void Eldrich (s/b/e)
Midgard: Runecarving Runemaster (h/c/m) / Dark Spiritmaster (s/b/e)
Albion: Body Sorceror (h/c/m) / Spirit Cabalist (s/b/e)

--------------

7. Group Realm Abilities

Hibernia: Group Purge on Druid / Briliant Aura of Deflection on Enchanter
Albion: Speed of Sound on Minstrel / Bunker of Faith on Cleric
Midgard: .....

--------------

My personal conclusions from the above

1. Resist Buffs
2. Buffs
3. PBT (Pulsing Blade Turn)
4. Crowd Control
5. Speed
6. Resist Debuffs
7. Group Realm Abilities

1. I personally dont play Midgard, but I would guess there are very few active RvR Aug/mend Shamans and Aug/mend Healers. those 8-24% resist buffs that are all so common in balanced Hibernian/Albion groups (from Wardens, Druid, Friar, Cleric) are clearly lacking for Midgard.

2. Friendly buffbots may somewhat make this irrelevant, and I'm not entirely sure how many Druids spec "group friendly" or their pet line for AE root but...
I would say that there are more active RvR enhance Clerics (35 enhance) than active RvR buff Druids, and very very few Aug Shamans, as its more viable for Clerics to spec high Rejuvination/Enhance as their smite line is not as attractive as Shamans Cave line or Druids pet line.

3. Hibernia have a massive upper hand with respect to PBT. They always have 6sec PBT in a group on a class in strong armour. Wardens may not be outstanding, but they sure stay alive longer + provide more to a group than than Earth Theurgists/Suppression Runemasters.

I do not know of any RvR active 6sec PBT Earth Theurgists on Prydwen, and only a handful of 6sec PBT Suppression Runemasters. Suppression Runemasters at least get the "luxuary" of nearsight/snare nukes, Earth Theurgs get... 12% power consuming pets. Power is a large concern for 6sec PBT classes, and Earth Theurgist has absolutely nothing else but power consuming baseline nukes, and power consuming pets.

4. CC is an iffy issue, however come 1.60 i personally think its pretty fair and balanced..

5. Midgards speed class the Skald is only grouped for its speed.. Minstrel and the Bard at least can play support in other ways (crowd control, melee for Minstrel, crowd control, healing for Bards) during encounters.

6. Resist debuffs accross the three realms are clearly unbalanced. h/c/m debuffs are more common, but Hibernia have a large upper hand with Enchanters having 179 baseline heat dds and 50% heat debuffs.

Runecarving Runemasters can use similar tactic with 159 baseline dark nukes sacrificing 10sec PBT for some reduced variance by speccing dark.

I know of no Spirit Cabalists on Prydwen, Albion.

Overall this issue needs completely rethinking. Having classes be able to debuff their own damage while others cannot even obtain a debuff from friendly realm mates due to resist debuffs being in "unviable" lines. Magic resists as a whole are very high in balanced groups (at least 50%, up to 100% in Hibernian groups with Briliant Aura of Defelction), and as such Resist Debuffs should play a major support role. 50% castable debuffs which actually stick for 1.5 that value that allow baseline nukes with ~20 spec to hit for cap damage are overpowering.

7. Group Purge vs Speed of Sound : If you are mezzed and SoS is fired, you can only move... you will still need to purge/be demezzed to fight/cast. This makes Speed of Sound nowhere near as effective as Group Purge as some people make out.

BAoD vs BoF : My problem with BAoD is it stacks with resist buffs. there are screenshots of Hibernians with 100% in some resists and over 90% in the others. Bunker of Faith on plate/chain wearers maybe harsh, but will only provide 50% absorb to casters - you can still take down strong Albion groups (with melee) while Bunker of Faith is up, try and take down a strong Hibernian group (with spells) while BAoD is up. This alongside Hibernians constant 6sec PBT makes they very very difficult to kill.

BAoD not only makes Hibernians magic immune also makes hibs pretty much Crowd Control immune.

I personally would like to see BoF effectiveness capped to around 60% absorb max, and BAoDs effectiveness capped to 60% magic resist max too.. Such would mean they are still effective, but not compeltely overpowering in "balanced" groups.

Midgard is clearly lacking a group RA, however as some have mentioned, Midgard have the best Crowd Control class in the game (PAC Healer)/Best Light Tank in the game (Berzerker)/best nuker in the game (Dark Runemaster), Something along the lines of Group Purge or BAoD (as they are now) in the hands of Midgard would be horrific.


--------------


Summary

1. Tone down Bunker of Faith/Briliant Aura of Deflection Realm Abilities so they do not exceed 60% absorb/magic resists total (Hard Capping of Absorb/Magic Resists)
2. Balanced resist debuffs accross the three reamls. A completely different implementation (possibly "procs" on tanks) would be ideal. Ensure resist debuffs do not exceed 50% (as they do now) and never go below 0% resist (as they do now)
3. Midgard is clearly lacking the 8-24% resist buffs from active RvR Aug Shamans and Aug Healers, where such resist buffs are second nature to balanced Hibernia/Albion groups.
4. The "base" classes for a balanced RvR group: Hibernia need 3, Albion need 5 and Midgard need 5 (some of which hardly exist) this is hardly fair.

Regards
Jenkz
Level 50 Cleric (40 Enhance/36 Rejuv)
Servants of the Lake, Albion, Prydwen

P.S. The above was posted to the Prydwen forum on Barrysworld: http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=55813

 

[ormorof]

like the way you slag of midgard in the RA section.. you obviously haven't been playing midgard recently

 

[SilverHood]

^^

stupid brother using BW on my pc again

 

[Solid]

Darkness Runie is not the best Nuker in the game sorry u need to change that.

Self debuff + 50 baseline nuke makes Mana Chanter the best nuker in the game when we actully start looking at them in real terms.

 

[Solid]

Also I would call the Pac Healer as a Subclass for starters and then I would also say its the most Versatile and sturdy CC class in the game. Sorc Mez is still superior in many situations to Healer Mez, however healer has access to a larger variety which includes instas.

 

[DocWolfe]

remove 6 second pbt altogether so I can actually hit something, sometime.

 

[cougar-]

good usage of sos and bof make alb grps realy strong and bring a good fight. and u always outnumber us so we deserve better resists and pbt

 

[vermillon]

Warden can get IP
so 6sec pbt in a scale wear tank with IP. No way you can compare this with a Theurgist or Runemaster

Also Banker of Faith(melee absorbtion) can't be compared with magic resist wich are modifiable with Spell Craft,buffs and Avoidance of Magic hence more easy to achive high magic resist. On the other hand you can't do nothing for your melee absorbtion(exept Avoid Pain for tanks only) unles you have a Necro in your poket.

 

[mid.Bashir]

omg... a NP that said "you always outnumber us"??!?

 

[Rumble]

Nice and concise, after all that work it's a shame you didn't run it through a spellchecker before sending it.

To be honest I would be amazed if you got a reply, Mythic only appear to read/respond to TL reports where all these issues are dragged up in one form or another. Most people already know there is a huge problem with realm balance, out of control resists, etc, etc.

On reflection we are rather lucky with the Prydwen realm balance, there seems to be a healthy number in each realm (well....enough to compete against each other). At least we haven't degenerated into FOTM realm jumpers like other servers.

Personally the only reason I still play the game is to see if they ever fix bolts and on that day Satan will skate to work.

 

[eben]

I think this post is great Jenkz.

I'd add that perhaps they should stop stacking of PBTs. Cap it at 1 bubble every 6 seconds.

 

[eben]

Originally posted by Solid
Darkness Runie is not the best Nuker in the game sorry u need to change that.

Self debuff + 50 baseline nuke makes Mana Chanter the best nuker in the game when we actully start looking at them in real terms.

Have to agree here but in Jenkz's defence he was referring to dark runecarvers (47 dark/26 RC) who can debuff their own nukes too.

Chanters are long overdue some "assessment" to bring them back into line. Nobody to this date has given me a credible reason why manachanters get a superior PBAOE to ice wizzies AND the best summonable pet in the game. (Yes I know wizzies get the same casting time next patch but wizzies don't get a pet either .)

 

[eynar]

Excellent post, though you might have emphasized the skald's role in current Mid rvr more

 

[eynar]

Originally posted by cougar-
good usage of sos and bof make alb grps realy strong and bring a good fight. and u always outnumber us so we deserve better resists and pbt

Or you could say that it wouldn't be necessary to outnumber you if you didn't have those abilities. Not that the outnumbering part is true tho...

 

[Nightchill]

Quick point: you can't fire SoS off when mezzd. Has to be before the mezz. Sure you know this, just didn't read write in your letter.

 

[-naetha-]

As an Alb I think I agree with nearly everything in this post although obviously I don't know as much about mid and hib. The only bit I have to contest is this:

4. CC is an iffy issue, however come 1.60 i personally think its pretty fair and balanced..

Instant ae mezz. Mids and Hibs have a damn useful instant ae mezz. Albs have Sorc castable mezz (which admittedly will get better in 1.60) Minstrel 5 second 'Coooeeee I'm over here guys! Damn you inturrepted me after 4 and a half seconds ' ae mezz, and the supremely uber pbaoe cleric insta mezz that lasts for something along the lines of 15 seconds with no resists, and is along a spec line that nobody in their right mind would choose for balanced group RvR.

Give Alb a usable ae insta mezz (or any insta mezz for that matter other than cleric gimpage) and I'd be a happy bunny

Ah well I can dream eh

 

[Jenkz]

thanks for replies.

rumble: heh, if i had a spellchecker on this comp (at kris' - no m$ word here, or such, no wonder he cant spell for shit eh )

preventing the stacking of PBT is also a very nice suggestion, though it's rather useful in PvE

mana chanters will undoubtedly be fixed, their "outnukage" of all pure nuke spec classes is simply wrong. if you ignore the fact that manachanters can 50% heat debuff and 179 heat dd, dark runies (even more so with spares RC) are the most damaging nuker in the game.

-naetha-, with the increased mez range of sorcs next patch, with our mez reduction on sorcs next patch, an insta mez on any alb class would be overpowered, and most likely not needed.

night; the SoS not usable while mezzed definatly should be in the above post, bit late now as its been mailed

 

[Rumble]

Use a dictionary

Nah seriously its refreshing to see someone actually looking at things from a broader perspective. I just play the game and don't pay much attention to statistics although I can moan about Earth Wizzy's being shit in great detail

Perhaps this could be an ongoing project from the rest of the Prydwen community and we could keep bombarding Sanya with the European point of view.

To get the ball rolling - add a line about fixing bolts for all realms

 

[j000 d000d]

1. Tone down Bunker of Faith/Briliant Aura of Deflection Realm Abilities so they do not exceed 60% absorb/magic resists total (Hard Capping of Absorb/Magic Resists)

I don't agree with this, the abilities aren't that good, and 30 seconds can pass by faster than you can imagine.

2. Balanced resist debuffs accross the three reamls. A completely different implementation (possibly "procs" on tanks) would be ideal. Ensure resist debuffs do not exceed 50% (as they do now) and never go below 0% resist (as they do now)

Resist debuffs are ok as they are now.
Sure, Spirit Cabalists are nowhere to be seen, but there's no room to put them somewhere else.

3. Midgard is clearly lacking the 8-24% resist buffs from active RvR Aug Shamans and Aug Healers, where such resist buffs are second nature to balanced Hibernia/Albion groups.

Bullshit. Every shaman is specced to at least 32 Augmentation, and if the shaman didn't then he's a complete idiot. And Aug Healers are around a lot, Aug/Mend healers rock, Pac healers rock too, just the hypocrits on Prydwen here only want to play buffblades. The classes are there, they just aren't played, on Prydwen. Go take a look on excal and you'll see plenty of them.

4. The "base" classes for a balanced RvR group: Hibernia need 3, Albion need 5 and Midgard need 5 (some of which hardly exist) this is hardly fair.

This is bullshit too, let's take a look at a Hib group:

-Druid (NO Damage)
-Bard (NO Damage)
-Warden (NO Damage)
-Hero (Melee, good Damage)
-Champion(Melee, good Damage)
-Eldritch (good Damage, BUT it is a caster, AND PBAoE)
-Enchanter (good Damage, BUT it is a caster, AND PBAoE)
-Enchanter (good Damage, BUT it is a caster, AND PBAoE)

That's 5 classes that can do damage, of which only 2 can operate if they are getting hit.

Now an Alb group:

-Cleric (NO Damage)
-Friar (Melee, good Damage)
-Air Theurgist (good Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Matter Cabalist (good Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Mind Sorcerer (Decent Damage, BUT it is a caster)
-Mercenary (Melee, good Damage)
-Paladin (Melee, decent Damage)
-Minstrel (Melee, good Damage)

So that's ummm... 7 classes that can do damage... only 3 are casters... so that's always 4 people you can whack enemies with. Sure, you don't have resist debuffs, but that's because Albs have their abilities spread over 12 classes and Hib can fit all abilities in 1 group (8 classes) for a decent group.

Solution -> Make 2 groups, and switch the Matter Cabalist and Mind Sorcerer for a Fire Wizard and Body Sorcerer in the 2nd group, problem solved.

Albs can't fit as much abilities in 1 group, but they can do a lot more damage with 1 group.

 

[Fafnir]

Originally posted by Teador
Bullshit. Every shaman is specced to at least 32 Augmentation, and if the shaman didn't then he's a complete idiot. And Aug Healers are around a lot, Aug/Mend healers rock, Pac healers rock too, just the hypocrits on Prydwen here only want to play buffblades. The classes are there, they just aren't played, on Prydwen. Go take a look on excal and you'll see plenty of them.

Well a shaman that spec aug to 32 will get 1 16% resist buff, 2 8% resist buffs, 1st 24 resist buff is at 43 aug. Not many shamans spec that high, since 37 with Mastery of the Arcane II gives dam good buffs, you get points over to decent healing. Or decent cave.

 

[old.Khain]

I think where we have a huge issue is that on the Euro english speacking server, their are 2 servers and the US have TONS.

For the US this leads to huge realm unbalancing on numbers if you look at the realm on the US Mid are much better on the larger amount of servers, so are viewed as the better and stronger realm.

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Fafnir
Well a shaman that spec aug to 32 will get 1 16% resist buff, 2 8% resist buffs, 1st 24 resist buff is at 43 aug. Not many shamans spec that high, since 37 with Mastery of the Arcane II gives dam good buffs, you get points over to decent healing. Or decent cave.

Not many shamans spec that high? So they don't want that good End Regen?

How stupid can they be, really....

It's not Mythic's fault that people choose for dumb specs.

 

[Fafnir]

Originally posted by Teador
Not many shamans spec that high? So they don't want that good End Regen?

How stupid can they be, really....

It's not Mythic's fault that people choose for dumb specs.

I didn't say they dont spec to 32, but to the last resistbuff, aug 32 is enough for perma sprint, and perma styles unless you slam all the time.

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Fafnir
I didn't say they dont spec to 32, but to the last resistbuff, aug 32 is enough for perma sprint, and perma styles unless you slam all the time.

with 37 Aug you have a good spec and the 16% resist buffs.

This is the same as Hibs so i don't see what's wrong with it.

 

[Fafnir]

2 16% resist buffs, 1 8% resist buffs. Druids get the same if they spec 37 aug.

the biggest diff i can see between druids and shamans is that shamans don't get any insta root. This i think should be implemented. Then some of you say hey you got Ichor, yes we do for 14 realmpoints.

 

[zero-]

who says its better to have all the stuff a grp needs on 3 classes - when u kill the bard the grp loses : cc - pacification - endurance - demezz - small heals - u have to kill a pally, sorc, mincer for that - look at it from another point of view etc

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by zero-
who says its better to have all the stuff a grp needs on 3 classes - when u kill the bard the grp loses : cc - pacification - endurance - demezz - small heals - u have to kill a pally, sorc, mincer for that - look at it from another point of view etc

Indeed.

Body Sorc + Fire Wiz -> Boom Boom dead druid -> Boom Boom dead bard

you win

 

[Jenkz]

the solution is far from to "just make two full groups of albs" as then what happens?

you get two full groups of hibs.

if 2fg albs is balanced against 1fg of hibs things are surely not balanced, as 2fg of albs are not balanced against 2fg of hibs.

as for BAoD and BoF not being "overpowering" when up in balanced groups, i call nuking for 0 damage (- ~400) overpowering. similar applies to BoF but not to those extremes. (BoF overwrites all absorb buffs) where as BAoD stacks with resist buffs for up to 100% resists for 30 seconds.

your "balanced" hib group has two chanters, thats 60 seconds of magic/CC immunity.

as for lack of needed classes in mid, i dont play mid, i dont pretend i do, i dont pretend i know everything about mid. all i say is what i see on prydwen (which is what this post was about, nothing more) and thats very few to no active RvR aug/mend healers and aug/mend shammies. maybe you're right and thats because all aug shamies are stuck in the portal keep being buffbots for the buffblades but thats another story entirely.

as for Body sorc + fire wiz, that would mean filling the two remaining spots in a group with those and only those classes. alb groups would look like:

cleric (rejuv/enhance)
friar
minstrel
mind sorc
theurgist
paladin
body sorc
fire wiz

that leaves one tank.... the paladin, who cannot deal substantial melee damage. friars if they are doing their job are secondary healers so are not tanks, and minstrels the same, are not melee damage dealers (rouge dmg table)

compare that to your suggested hib setup which has effectivley two body sorc/fire wiz setups with the two chanters (so is already twice as effective), has warden/hero/champ to interupt/actually hurt casters.

two classes (fire wiz/body sorc) to do the job of one (mana chanter). sure, i hear zero, but when you have absolutely no space left in a group for any melee damage dealers (merc/polearmsman/reaver) you are clearly at a disadvantage. sure, bring 2fg albs, but then you just have 2fg albs vs 2fg (effectivley 4fg) hibs

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Jenkz
two classes (fire wiz/body sorc) to do the job of one (mana chanter). sure, i hear zero, but when you have absolutely no space left in a group for any melee damage dealers (merc/polearmsman/reaver) you are clearly at a disadvantage. sure, bring 2fg albs, but then you just have 2fg albs vs 2fg (effectivley 4fg) hibs

No, with 2fg albs you get all the abilities again, you just don't get those abilities you only need only once (Mezz, Nearsight). But you get some other things extra if you do 2fg instead of 1fg.

2fg Hibs is just 2fg of the same but again, and with no extras, and some stuff rendered useless for the 2nd group (Mezz,
Debuff), it's not even close to 4fg effectively.

A good Alb group has 7 classes that can deal damage, that should be enough, right?

And BAoD will be 30 seconds, and probably no-one has ever been so organised to have 2 chanters use it together so it will last for 60 seconds.

And a Enchanter with MoM 2 caps his light nuke at 570, and a Fire wizard can hit for 750+, it's quite a big difference. Also, the Chanter's nukes cost double the amount of power.

 

[walkerb]

lol.